predestined

Kenny'sID said:

You aren't paying attention, please go back and read what I said, and I stick with that.

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As you can see I am not the only one who got the same impression.

Kenny'sID said:

You people really need to finish your posts. Making such an accusation without explaining "why" makes it not only just an opinion, but an invalid one, at least until you make it valid.

Why is it that example? Why is it foolish. Why is it arrogant...you follow me?

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To say that you don’t know if God knows who will or will not be saved is foolish. Do you not see how arrogant that is?

If were gonna talk about free will, a "video game world or reality" is the closest and easiest analogy... and, "within the program", it has, some would say, the "illusion of choice" or making choices, but they are all choices "within the program", which has a master programmer that knows all that is even possible in it, and a programmed end, which will be a new beginning...

In that sense and within the program we could have some kind of will or free will involved maybe, but only within the program...

God Bless!

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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No. It means when you change your "fate", you are doing exactly what God has planned all along.

Even Satan, the most skilled and powerful opponent of God, is doing in his anger and despair exactly what God has planned all along. --No wonder he gnashes his teeth! It has to be frustrating!

Jonaitis said:

Well, this sounds like Deism, that there is a God out there who just watches and does not intervene in the affairs of the world.

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So? what ism are you claiming? Putting a name to it does nothing for your argument.

Jonaitis said:

"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose'..." (Isaiah 46:10).

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Yes he will accomplish his purpose. I have no idea how that supports predestination/our destiny pre written?

Jonaitis said:

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2)

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Nothing there either

Jonaitis said:

Can we thwart the plans and purposes of God?

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Of course not...still nothing.

Jonaitis said:

I don't understand this question. We live our lives, but at the same time it was predestined to occur.

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If it's predestined why even live this part of life, God has already decided who goes to heaven or hell...what would be the purpose of us going through the filtration process to find out who is good and makes it, and who is evil and does not, it makes no sense.

EDIT:You ended up offering no defense whatsoever for predestination, at least that I could see. If you like, you can explain how your replies are a defense so I can maybe get a better idea of your points.

redleghunter said:

As you can see I am not the only one who got the same impression.

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I don't care, you go read my exact post as well then..you are both wrong.

Did God make or design, or build it, with some small measure of limited choices affecting things within the program, involving them/you and/or their/your fate, ect...? certain limited and different outcomes, ect...? or is that already set in stone already...? totally predestined and totally predictable, going on only one predetermined path or course, unable to change, without God that is...

God Bless!

Kenny'sID said:

If it's predestined why even live this part of life, God has already decided who goes to heaven or hell...what would be the purpose of us going through the filtration process to find out who is good and makes it, and who is evil and does not, it makes no sense.

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I still don't understand. Let's talk about this, I know that you are bombarded with so many replies.

Predestination doesn't negate any sort of human responsibility, I think this is where is the misunderstanding is. We can agree that faith in Christ is the responsibility of every human being who hears the gospel, right?

MDC said:

To say that you don’t know if God knows who will or will not be saved is foolish. Do you not see how arrogant that is?

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Considering the apostle Paul was convinced God does know.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

MDC said:

To say that you don’t know if God knows who will or will not be saved is foolish. Do you not see how arrogant that is?

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That still falls under the "Sayin' it don't make it so" category.

Kenny'sID said:

So? what ism are you claiming? Putting a name to it does nothing for your argument.



Yes he will accomplish his purpose. I have no idea how that supports predestination/our destiny pre written?



Nothing there either



Of course not...still nothing.



If it's predestined why even live this part of life, God has already decided who goes to heaven or hell...what would be the purpose of us going through the filtration process to find out who is good and makes it, and who is evil and does not, it makes no sense.

EDIT:You ended up offering no defense whatsoever for predestination, at least that I could see. If you like, you can explain how your replies are a defense so I can maybe get a better idea of your points.

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Your arguments are no different from what Paul anticipated in Romans 9:19. Thou will say to me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? God has ordained all that comes to pass for His glory and purpose. Makes no sense only to the fallen human sinful nature in man

redleghunter said:

Considering the apostle Paul was convinced God does know.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

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Amen!

Jonaitis said:

I still don't understand. Let's talk about this, I know that you are bombarded with so many replies.

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I'm used to it, I'll be going to bed right quick and picking it up tomorrow so, not a problem.

Jonaitis said:

We can agree that faith in Christ is the responsibility of every human being who hears the gospel, right?

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If they want to make it to heaven yes, or course, but God has not predestined them to accept, it's up to us.

I honestly believe some of you have "plan" mixed up with "predestination".

Predestination is where our outcome was destined by our creator/where we end up is already decided.

That or I just ran into the most disagreeable bunch on CF

Good time to be off to bed, you all can decide exactly what it is we're arguing here.

There is no such thing as free will in the scriptures. The closest mention of it is in Philemon vs 14. Man has a will but it is not free in the sense of the word. Man always wills to do something with the influence of outside forces. The will to draw to God, starts with God!
Man's will is either in 'bondage' to God or in 'bondage' to the enemy. We have to understand the cocept of total depravity of man.Without God's involvement, no man is capable of choosing God. There is nothing in a sinner that would make them choose God-absolutely nothing. That's what makes salvation a work of God-a masterpiece.
The problem with people who find predestination 'un-fair' of God is their forgetfulness of being the clay. The potter will do anything with the clay (make a beautiful vessel for honor or another for destruction) for He is master and King. We wrestle with the concept of God's Kingship and Him doing as He pleases which includes election and predestination. God predetermined who to save and who not to, and yet He also holds every sinner accountable for rejecting His Son. The scriptures show that God predestines, elects and still judges sinners. How do we reconcile that? We can't. We may never be able to figure out His mind and that's what makes Him special,He is God!

In the context of scripture, show me where we (mankind) when coming to a fork in the road, they are "predestined" to choose one path over the other?

Predestination says absolutely nothing about that. That is a common assumption that is completely wrong.

According to Paul, according to Romans, we (Christians) are predestined to one thing and one thing only!

"to be conformed to the image of the Son" -Rom. 8:29 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Kenny'sID said:

I'm used to it, I'll be going to bed right quick and picking it up tomorrow so, not a problem.



If they want to make it to heaven yes, or course, but God has not predestined them to accept, it's up to us.

I honestly believe some of you have "plan" mixed up with "predestination".

Predestination is where our outcome was destined by our creator/where we end up is already decided.

That or I just ran into the most disagreeable bunch on CF

Good time to be off to bed, you all can decide exactly what it is we're arguing here.

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I agree with your view of predestination

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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There's a very simple test to see if something was God's will....if it happened, then it was his will.

~delete~

Neogaia777 said:

If were gonna talk about free will, a "video game world or reality" is the closest and easiest analogy... and, "within the program", it has, some would say, the "illusion of choice" or making choices, but they are all choices "within the program", which has a master programmer that knows all that is even possible in it, and a programmed end, which will be a new beginning...

In that sense and within the program we could have some kind of will or free will involved maybe, but only within the program...

God Bless!

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I would scrub “free will” from the theological lexicon. Why because the only place we really see that mentioned is “free will offerings” in the Old TESTAMENT.

In fact in the NT the only place you will see will of man it is not positive:

John 1: NASB

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (NASB)

Verse 13 is key.

Now do we freely make choices? Yes!

However (big however), our human choices are colored or influenced based on what is called the bondage of the will:

Romans 6: NASB
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)

Verse 16 key here. We hu-mans are either slaves to sin resulting in death or slaves to obedience resulting in righteousness.

Not so free is it? Our choices are influenced. We do freely choose within these parameters. But notice we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

Hope this helps.