Dear all: The other thread was closed; but I think the last post is worthy of answers. So I would like to start a new thread, based on that post, directed to "those-who-believe-in-Predestined-Election" (PE).
The applicable "forum rule", is:
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
Yesterday I indulged in a little sarcasm---in asking the same questions over and over, I did not recieve real answers. And so many times the retort is something like, "Well YOU believe in WORKS". Or "I would HATE to live in fear like YOU do". I patiently explain that we do NOT believe in "salvation-by-works", and there is NO fear in "OSNAS" (once-saved-not-always-saved)---and yet the same accusations ("works" and "fear") are levied again and again and again; hence the frustration and exasperation. There is one reason, and one reason only that I personally persist in debates such as these---this cuts to the heart of the nature of our salvation---how could something dealing with our ESSENCE, not be important? The purpose is to teach, and to learn. To build and not destroy. The intent it that each participant emerge better Scripturally taught, better armed to deal with life.
Let's make this our motto: "Preach the Word; be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but ...will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to myths. But YOU, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." 2Tim4:2-5
I use terms like, "gum-flapping-hyperbole" with distinction---some people, in holding to preconcieved theology, seek to reject clear warnings by saying, "It's just FATHERLY ADVICE, just BUG-BEAR, negative-rhetorical-hypothetical---the writer doesn't really believe it CAN happen". Hence the term, "gum-flapping-hyperbole". "Gum-flapping", because if what they say can NOT happen, then why say it? Simply "flapping their gums for no reason". "Hyperbole", as in the Webster Dictionary definition: "exageration for effect, not to be taken literally". But I think the warnings are to be taken literally.
In the following post I ask some questions---please pretend they have never been asked before, and simply answer them. These questions cut to the heart of the difference between "Predestined-Election", and "Responsible Grace" (to which I, and all "OSNAS" believers, hold).
So, the post from the other thread, sarcasm removed...
My question to you, is "what IS your foundation"? Is it assumption? Or is it Scripture? If Scripture, then please (no dodging or ignoring), answer just a few simple questions:
1. How are the,
"ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST",
...in 2Pet1, REALLY SAVED, but the,
"ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"
...in chapter 2 are NOT saved? How? On what basis can the same exact words, change meaning (especially in the same letter, by the same writer)? Isn't the CHANGE, clear evidence of presumption rather than pure doctrine?
2. How do people "wander from the truth" in James 5:19-20, but-they-WERE-NEVER-saved (in the FIRST place)? Or if they WERE saved, how were they never UNSAVED if John uses "THANATOS"?
3. What did Paul mean by "the Spirit expressly says that many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? (Don't use 1Jn2:19---those were specific "antichrists among us"; 1Tim4:1 is followed by 4:16. Paul says first "many will be deceived and fall", then in the same chapter Paul says "pay close attention to yourself and your teachings to save yourself and your listeners". If you insist on using 1Jn2:19 in response, then you must also answer 2Jn1:6-9: "You should walk in His commandments; many deceivers are there, so watch yourselves that you do not lose what you have accomplished; for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ has not God"---Clearly this warning was to those who might "go out from them"---were these "walking-in-truth-children" never-really-saved? Or is John simply warning that if we do not abide in Christ then we lose REWARDS but not HEAVEN? Or is this simply "gum-flapping", hyperbole, it-can't-REALLY-happen?)
If Paul says "may will fall by deceit" so "pay close attention and persevere to save yourself", if John says "walk in His commandments, beware of deceivers and antichrists, watch yourselves that you do not go too far and not abide in Christ's teachings so as to NOT HAVE GOD", why do you believe Paul and John held "OSAS"? Why is "election" Scriptural rather than presumption? (No dodging this time, actually answer the question---pretend you have never answered it before, do so for the sakes of those-who-are-reading-this-for-the-first-time)
4. Why does Peter say: "be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS" (2:3:17-18)? Did Peter REALLY believe we COULD NOT fall? If so, then why does Peter say "make certain of your calling and election, watch yourselves as to what qualities you exhibit, that you not be blind short-sighted and forgotten purification from former sins, for in THIS way the EISODOS-GATE-OF-HEAVEN will be provided to you" (1:4-11---you cannot say "they were never saved"---they are ESCAPED, they are "of the SAME FAITH as PETER")? If Peter said "make sure of your election, do not forget your purification from former sins, do not "stumble-PTAIO-BECOME-WRETCHED", how then did Peter believe "predestined-election"?
5. What did Paul mean when he said, "if we endure we shall reign, if we deny Him He will deny us; if we are faithless He remains faithful"? (2Tim2:11-13) If we deny Him will we still go to Heaven? Can the faithless be SAVED? Is this more "gum-flapping-hyperbole"? Why does Paul follow this with, "remind them, solemnly charge them not to wrangle about words which is useless and leads to ruin; be diligent to present yourselves approved ...handling accurately the word of truth, avoid worldly and empty chatter, like Hymenaeus and Philetus who have GONE ASTRAY from the truth and upset the faith of some"? If "the Lord knows who are His" (vs 19), why does this support "election" rather than "voluntary belief" (especially when followed by "let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickednes"---if we are elected, would we not AUTOMATICALLY abstain?)? No you can't say "GOD will CHANGE us so that we WILL abstain"---this is a DIRECTIVE TO ABSTAIN---if it was AUTOMATIC then why WRITE it? More gum-flapping-hyperbole?)
Objectively, does Paul consider that "not-enduring" or "upset-from-faith" is possible here?
Simple questions, to those who hold "PE". Please answer them. Pretend you have not answered them before, do not "avoid them", do not "dodge them", just answer them. If you do not, then your credibility is gone.
If you (PE believers) have similar, pointed questions for me (or other RG believers), I (we) will be happy to answer them. Ecstatic. Joyful. Outrageously pleased. Et cetera...
The applicable "forum rule", is:
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
Yesterday I indulged in a little sarcasm---in asking the same questions over and over, I did not recieve real answers. And so many times the retort is something like, "Well YOU believe in WORKS". Or "I would HATE to live in fear like YOU do". I patiently explain that we do NOT believe in "salvation-by-works", and there is NO fear in "OSNAS" (once-saved-not-always-saved)---and yet the same accusations ("works" and "fear") are levied again and again and again; hence the frustration and exasperation. There is one reason, and one reason only that I personally persist in debates such as these---this cuts to the heart of the nature of our salvation---how could something dealing with our ESSENCE, not be important? The purpose is to teach, and to learn. To build and not destroy. The intent it that each participant emerge better Scripturally taught, better armed to deal with life.
Let's make this our motto: "Preach the Word; be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but ...will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to myths. But YOU, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." 2Tim4:2-5
I use terms like, "gum-flapping-hyperbole" with distinction---some people, in holding to preconcieved theology, seek to reject clear warnings by saying, "It's just FATHERLY ADVICE, just BUG-BEAR, negative-rhetorical-hypothetical---the writer doesn't really believe it CAN happen". Hence the term, "gum-flapping-hyperbole". "Gum-flapping", because if what they say can NOT happen, then why say it? Simply "flapping their gums for no reason". "Hyperbole", as in the Webster Dictionary definition: "exageration for effect, not to be taken literally". But I think the warnings are to be taken literally.
In the following post I ask some questions---please pretend they have never been asked before, and simply answer them. These questions cut to the heart of the difference between "Predestined-Election", and "Responsible Grace" (to which I, and all "OSNAS" believers, hold).
So, the post from the other thread, sarcasm removed...
Do you believe the Iraelites were "CHOSEN/ELECT"---so that you believe that every last one of them are bound for Heaven, and will not / can not / have not, been "lost"? Even those who reject Jesus, they're still Heaven-bound? Or do you understand that "chosen-people" were invited, and because they refused the invitation they became unchosen (individually). I rather think you understand that "they failed because they pursued it by works rather than by faith"---entirely, voluntary.Probably? CHOSEN? You said you didn't believe in the doctrine of election. And not that you diddn't understand it, but you were going to refute it. But now you use it as part of your answer.
I think you have just eloquently made my point for me. Think about what you just said---"We ...show how you are wrong ...since true believers cannot lose it". What if assertions are proven by assumption, rather than by Scripture? For instance, if I believed "true believers cannot lose salvation", and THAT became my foundation, then I would be inclined to say "the ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST were never ACTUALLY saved".We write post after post on this thread and countless others showing in context how you are wrong about how we lose salvation since true believers cannot lose it.
My question to you, is "what IS your foundation"? Is it assumption? Or is it Scripture? If Scripture, then please (no dodging or ignoring), answer just a few simple questions:
1. How are the,
"ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST",
...in 2Pet1, REALLY SAVED, but the,
"ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"
...in chapter 2 are NOT saved? How? On what basis can the same exact words, change meaning (especially in the same letter, by the same writer)? Isn't the CHANGE, clear evidence of presumption rather than pure doctrine?
2. How do people "wander from the truth" in James 5:19-20, but-they-WERE-NEVER-saved (in the FIRST place)? Or if they WERE saved, how were they never UNSAVED if John uses "THANATOS"?
3. What did Paul mean by "the Spirit expressly says that many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? (Don't use 1Jn2:19---those were specific "antichrists among us"; 1Tim4:1 is followed by 4:16. Paul says first "many will be deceived and fall", then in the same chapter Paul says "pay close attention to yourself and your teachings to save yourself and your listeners". If you insist on using 1Jn2:19 in response, then you must also answer 2Jn1:6-9: "You should walk in His commandments; many deceivers are there, so watch yourselves that you do not lose what you have accomplished; for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ has not God"---Clearly this warning was to those who might "go out from them"---were these "walking-in-truth-children" never-really-saved? Or is John simply warning that if we do not abide in Christ then we lose REWARDS but not HEAVEN? Or is this simply "gum-flapping", hyperbole, it-can't-REALLY-happen?)
If Paul says "may will fall by deceit" so "pay close attention and persevere to save yourself", if John says "walk in His commandments, beware of deceivers and antichrists, watch yourselves that you do not go too far and not abide in Christ's teachings so as to NOT HAVE GOD", why do you believe Paul and John held "OSAS"? Why is "election" Scriptural rather than presumption? (No dodging this time, actually answer the question---pretend you have never answered it before, do so for the sakes of those-who-are-reading-this-for-the-first-time)
4. Why does Peter say: "be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS" (2:3:17-18)? Did Peter REALLY believe we COULD NOT fall? If so, then why does Peter say "make certain of your calling and election, watch yourselves as to what qualities you exhibit, that you not be blind short-sighted and forgotten purification from former sins, for in THIS way the EISODOS-GATE-OF-HEAVEN will be provided to you" (1:4-11---you cannot say "they were never saved"---they are ESCAPED, they are "of the SAME FAITH as PETER")? If Peter said "make sure of your election, do not forget your purification from former sins, do not "stumble-PTAIO-BECOME-WRETCHED", how then did Peter believe "predestined-election"?
5. What did Paul mean when he said, "if we endure we shall reign, if we deny Him He will deny us; if we are faithless He remains faithful"? (2Tim2:11-13) If we deny Him will we still go to Heaven? Can the faithless be SAVED? Is this more "gum-flapping-hyperbole"? Why does Paul follow this with, "remind them, solemnly charge them not to wrangle about words which is useless and leads to ruin; be diligent to present yourselves approved ...handling accurately the word of truth, avoid worldly and empty chatter, like Hymenaeus and Philetus who have GONE ASTRAY from the truth and upset the faith of some"? If "the Lord knows who are His" (vs 19), why does this support "election" rather than "voluntary belief" (especially when followed by "let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickednes"---if we are elected, would we not AUTOMATICALLY abstain?)? No you can't say "GOD will CHANGE us so that we WILL abstain"---this is a DIRECTIVE TO ABSTAIN---if it was AUTOMATIC then why WRITE it? More gum-flapping-hyperbole?)
Objectively, does Paul consider that "not-enduring" or "upset-from-faith" is possible here?
Simple questions, to those who hold "PE". Please answer them. Pretend you have not answered them before, do not "avoid them", do not "dodge them", just answer them. If you do not, then your credibility is gone.
If you (PE believers) have similar, pointed questions for me (or other RG believers), I (we) will be happy to answer them. Ecstatic. Joyful. Outrageously pleased. Et cetera...