Predestined-Election

[Tallyn]

Looks like we are in a contest of who can write the longest post
*in jest*

Tallyn

 

[Ben johnson]

This is a post I made on another message board:

(does NOT say that he 'has become UNWASHED' -- says he's forgotten he was washed -- see the difference?)

Do you really believe that "forgotten former purification of sins"---doesn't mean returned-to-sin][/b? Just like in Heb10:29, "How much severer punishment will he deserve, he-who-has-trampled-underfoot the Son of GOd, and has regarded as UNCLEAN the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified?" Do you believe this one is "still sanctified"? Do you believe this one is "still sanctified"?

Jesus said, "no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit. THEREFORE, you will know them by their fruits." Peter's second letter speaks of "fruits commensurate to our SAVED-PERSPECTIVE---and then says, "he who LACKS these qualities has ...forgotten his former purification." Does this not "jibe" with what Jesus said, about fruits? Do you really really think that a saved person, can LACK these fruits? Don't you think that's kinda a stretch?

I bolded "abundantly" for emphasis; without that word one might
take this as "how you work yer way into heaven" but really it is the
ABUNDANT 'entrance of not having everything burnt up as wood
hay and stubble -- enter abundantly; hear "well done, good and
faithful servant" as opposed to being being barren and fruitless in
knowledge & avoid the state of "he himself will be saved; though as
by fire.

Ah---I understand now---you believe this verse says, "if you LACK these
qualities, the entrance will not be ABUNDANTLY provided, but it will still BE provided to you". (Though in absolute opposition to what Jesus said about the trees & fruits...) I take it differently---when he says, "as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble", I read the Greek for "stumble", which is "ptaio-become-wretched". I don't think a stumbler will go to Heaven. "For in THIS way THE (not 'an') EISODOS-GATE (the very gate itself) will be abundantly provided to you". I read this as "mutually exclusive"---that is to say, the EISODOS-GATE of Heaven will be provided in no other way...

I think the 1Cor3 passage (ending with vs 15, "...saved, yet so as through
fire"), says that trials refine us (as fire refines gold), in exactly the same
meaning of the 1Peter1:7 and James 1:2-3. We are "saved" by our "refinement and perfection that occurs because of the-fire-of-trials". (Which is also what Jesus said, "every tree that bears fruit He prunes that it may bear more fruit". Jn15:2) Thus, in 1Cor3, if a man's works are shallow, they will be burned up, and he will learn to produce better works. Which is, really, another way of saying "maturing to be Christ-like".

(this verse is used -- and rightly so -- to teach Unlimited
Atonement, as you well know --
"the Lord that BOUGHT THEM" refferring to the efficacious rendering
of the atonement for ALL --
it is potentially EFFECTIVE for even the "them" -
the false teachers who DENY the Lord -- no, no, no, they are not
"saved" --
they DENY their part in accepting the ATONEMENT which "bought
them" which paid for
"not our sins only but the sins of the whole world".

The Lord died for every one, paid a ranson (bought) "all men" -- but
that atonement is actuated individually only in acceptance/belief of
the gift; so therefore "deny the Lord that bought them in no way
means "they were saved and then denied the Lord" -- no rather
they denied the Lord whose sacrifice BUYS ALL MEN)

Excellent! AWESOME!

We can marry up the false teachers in 2 peter with John's "they
went out from us because they were not all of us"

Nawww, I dun' think so. In 1Jn2:19, this speaks of "specific individuals, certain (NAMED) 'antichrists among them'". If ALL who GO OUT FROM them, were never OF them, then why does John write in 2:1:7-9, "many deceivers have gone into the world... WATCH YOURSELVES that you do not LOSE what you have GAINED, but that you may receive FULL REWARD; anyone who goes TOO FAR (on ahead) and does not abide in Christ's teachings, HAS NOT GOD". We know from verses like 1Jn5:12-13, "having GOD is SALVATION"; (so is "abiding"---1Jn4:15-16) SO, if one of the SAVED cannot go too FAR and fall from SALVATION, why does John write "Watch yourselves that you do not lose the reward"? (In case someone is inclined to say, "Oh it's REWARDS in Heaven but not Heaven ITSELF", Col3:24 calls the INHERITANCE the REWARD; besides, it clearly says "goes too far and has not GOD"---disputing the subject of SALVATION in favor of REWARDS, would be to contend that one can be saved APART FROM GOD...)

It's just that, well, those in Peter's letter, 2:2:20-22, are called "truly escaped, through the EPIGNOSIS-saved-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ"---and then they are again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome; far better to have never KNOWN (epiginosko) the way of righteousness, than to HAVE KNOWN it and to epistrepho-ek-TURNED-AWAY from the Holy Commandment"; how in the world, can this mean anything but "truly-saved-who-fall-from-salvation"?

How could either OSAS or OSnAS argue with this?

Indeed. And yet, if the belief exists that "forgotten-former-purification" is still saved, if Jesus' own words of "you will know them by their fruits" counts for naught, if one can STUMBLE and even be DENIED by Jesus to God but he/she will still merrily march through Heaven's gate (though not as abundantly marching as if they had striven for righteousness), that belief concerns me greatly...

The point of all this is to decide the question:
Does God save man
OR
Does man save man?

"So it depends not on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy".

...and yet, "obtaining as the outcome of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9)

AND, "pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, persevere in these
things; for as you do this you will save yourself and those who hear you..."
(1Tim4:16)

And, "By your endurance you will save your souls" (Lk21:19)

Which is it? God saves us, or we save us? WHAT IF, what if it's GOD who saves us, through our own belief/faith? Perfect harmony...

 

[Ben johnson]

Salvation is by GRACE, nothing else. If salvation can be lost, it is as if you add 'PROVIDED YOU...'
"...provided you CONTINUE in His kindness, otherwise [you will also be cut off... (Rm11:22, NIV)

or 'AS LONG AS YOU...'
"Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, while it is still called "today", lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:12-14
"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18
"For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who have once ...been
METOCHOS-PARTAKERS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit, for as long as they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him to public shame." (NASV, "for-as-long-as", "WHILE")

or 'IF YOU...'
"Although you were formerly alienated and hostile, doing evil deeds, yet now He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach---if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel…" Col1:22-23
(The HOPE of the Gospel, is JESUS---1Tim1:1---"continue in the faith and not
be moved away from JESUS!")

So to me it is important because to say we have to do something to attain or maintain our salvation is to say we are saving ourselves.

If salvation is fellowship with God and Christ (see 1Jn1:3,6), then "keep
youselves in the love of God" (Jd21), "abide in Me, and I in you, anyone who does NOT abide is ...cast into the fire"---seems very clear to me. And there ARE verses that say we "save ourselves"---but they are in understanding of our free-will-receiving/abiding-in CHRIST (it is HE who saves US, it is not US who runs or wills that saves us, but it is us who have the FAITH to receive the gift-of-salvation: "For by GRACE through faith have you been saved...")

"If by the transgression of one, death reigned through the one, much more to those who receive the abundance of grace and receive the abundance of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Rm5:17

PE contends that the two, "ALL MEN" (pas anthropos) of Rom5:18 mean different things---the FIRST means EVERYONE, the SECOND means only SOME of ALL TYPES; but read the CONTEXT: "So then, AS through one (Adam) came condemnation to all, EVEN SO through Jesus' act came justification to all. Do you see the context? Paul does not allow the two "all men" to be SEPARATE, he CONNECTS THEM!!! "In JUST THE SAME WAY as all are condemned through Adam, SO TOO IN THE SAME WAY justification came to ALL!

it's not even worth it to argue anymore...
kinda looks that way, don't it?

I dunno---it is a careful line I walk. I would thoroughly enjoy to count each of you in my "circle of friends"---and yet, I am bound to "contend for the faith", to "destroy arguments and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God"; as Joy has said, the walk with God is most important---and it is with this aim that I contend Scripture---it exists not in a vacuum, but conveys the very thoughts of our Lord God. "Friendship with the world is enmity against God" (Jms4:4); I know that in these discussions I do not bear anger or hatred towards ANYONE here, and in my own heart do desire friendship with each of my brothers and sisters---yet I know that some of you get angry with me; but my priority, is that your anger with me, must succeed my resonsibility to my Lord and to "exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict"---it does grieve me when someone becomes angry with me---but if I search my heart and soul and find only God's Spirit motivating me, and search Scripture and find only harmony and clarity, then to these, my Lord and His Word, must I be true. I strive for righteousness, in true humility, focusing every thought and striving on Him, subjecting myself to Him in all things; open to admonishment and correction, eager to learn and be taught. If we disagree on small points, then as far as _I_ am concerned, we can still fellowship in love and harmony. But each person must know that second-place is as high as he or she can ever achieve with me.

Even if someday God blesses me with a wife, the words of a song ring true:
"There can be only one NUMBER ONE in my life, so second place will have to do for you; but I'm counting on spending the rest of my life, in love with the two of you."

And "J" (not her real "handle"), I hope you see that my approach is not "pure theory vacuous of spirit"---woven in your posts is the thread that also motivates me---to demonstrate the NATURE of our salvation, that it is FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD---to encourage the reader closer to his or her Lord, that his/her joy be complete! THIS is my theme, this is the goal of "pure and sound doctrine"---just as I believe it was also Paul's goal...

Each of us manifests different gifts; but each of us sings the same song:

"Oh Lord, let my life be a prayer to You,
In everything I say, in everything I do;
The fields are white, the harvesters few;
let me be one of the few!!!"

The praise, the glory, the worship, always and forever go to He who is
WORTHY! Praise God and Jesus FOREVER!

 

[LouisBooth]

"Salvation is by GRACE, nothing else. If salvation can be lost, it is as if you add 'PROVIDED YOU...'
"...provided you CONTINUE in His kindness, otherwise [you will also be cut off... (Rm11:22, NIV)"

If this is so then Grace doesn't cover everything, which is quite unbiblical

 

[Ben johnson]

@ Louis...

 

[LouisBooth]

Thanks for the wink, just showing how your statements contradict

 

[Ben johnson]

Thanks for the wink, just showing how your statements contradict

The statement in blue, "salvation is by grace, nothing else"...---was made by a young lady on the other message board. And I replied with Scripture, showing that indeed there IS a verse that says: "Salvation, provided that you continue in salvation, OTHERWISE YOU WILL BE CUT OFF". So then, she made the statement, I did not contradict it---Scripture did.

Each of the statements she made was contradicted by Scripture.

One question, Louis---do you believe that "by grace are we saved, through grace"?

Or do you believe, "by grace through faith are we saved"?

Is "faith-unto-salvation" a unilateral gift-from-God, or is it manifested from our own hearts? (Please give Scripture in answer...)

 

[LouisBooth]

"Salvation, provided that you continue in salvation, OTHERWISE YOU WILL BE CUT OFF"

so in other words something can seperate you from the love of God and grace is not all encompassing, interesting view you have there

 

[Ben johnson]

so in other words something can seperate you from the love of God and grace is not all encompassing, interesting view you have there

No, grace is not "all-encompassing" in implementation---grace is conditioned on our faith. Faith that comes from our own hearts, not given-by-God. (I am speaking of course of "faith-unto-salvation".)

Grace is "all-encompassing" in its availability---it is offered for the Jew, and for the Gentile---for there is no partiality from God. But grace is received by faith---in receiving Jesus.

Salvation is "by grace, through faith". We were chosen from the beginning through sanctification by the Spirit, and through our faith in the truth. (2Thess2:13).

Show me with Scripture that faith-unto-salvation is a unilateral installment by God?

 

[LouisBooth]

"No, grace is not "all-encompassing" in implementation"

Yes it is, that's exactly why Paul says SHOULD you sin more that grace cover it more? No, but it can. That's a given from his argument. God's grace covers all if it was true faith.

"Show me with Scripture that faith-unto-salvation is a unilateral installment by God?"

Show me where it says that Grace falls short in some places.

 

[Ben johnson]

Yes it is, that's exactly why Paul says SHOULD you sin more that grace cover it more? No, but it can. That's a given from his argument. God's grace covers all if it was true faith.

I disagree. Grace can never cover sin---unless there is repentance, there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation (Lk13:3). Grace is always conditioned on repentance-slash-belief...

"For by grace through faith have you been saved..."

"Show me with Scripture that faith-unto-salvation is a unilateral installment by God?"

Show me where it says that Grace falls short in some places.

It is not GRACE that falls short, it is US that fall short.

"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise rremains of entering His rest, any of you seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1

"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6

"Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

 

[LouisBooth]

"Grace can never cover sin---unless there is repentance, there is no forgiveness, "

So if you lie then I shoot you in the back, repent of it later, I go to heaven and you don't? Bah, that's not biblical at all.

*chuckles* that verse in Heb 4:1 applies to a specific people, look at the preceeding verse ben, "So we see that THEY were not able to ENTER BECAUSE of their UNBELIEF. therefore...."

No christian has unbelief ben. Just another example of an out of context verse

None of those verses show me that you can fall away if you read then incontext of the passage.

 

[Ben johnson]

No christian has unbelief ben. Just another example of an out of context verse...

That is the question, Louis. We are Christian, BY our belief. The question is, "can a true CHRISTIAN, ever come to UNBELIEF, by deception and sin and hardness of heart"?

Can Christian belief end?

 

[LouisBooth]

"The question is, "can a true CHRISTIAN, ever come to UNBELIEF, by deception and sin and hardness of heart"?"

Not according to the bible.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Last question---if specific passages are pointedly questioned, and "PE" proponents who enthusiastically previously-participated in discussions, now decline to answer, what should we believe this silence means?


[/B]

  

My silence means that I am bored with debating with you.  The scripture that speaks of election and predestination does not require long and windy breakdown or elaboration.  It is pretty straight forward.  So, rather than beat a dead horse, I choose to edify my self with studies of the scripture and renew myself in prayer.  My silence speaks volumes of energy better spent elsewhere.  You will believe what God wants you to believe.  As long as you are not seeking office in my denomination, that belief is a moot point to me.

 

[Ben johnson]

My silence means that I am bored with debating with you.

Now, that's too bad. 'Cause, if I was in error, and you could teach me how I was in error, then I would be prone to change. But alas, I shall hafta remain in error, no?

The scripture that speaks of election and predestination does not require long and windy breakdown or elaboration.

Actually, I rather think they do. First you must reject the "universalness" verses. Then you must re-define Jesus crucifixion, as merely demonstrative---pageantry; for, if we are pre-chosen, then the Cross is demonstrative not effective. Next, you must re-interpret all of the warning verses as not REAL, only BUGBEAR, negative-rhetorica-hypothetical, trivial hyperbole---exageration for effect but not to be taken literally. Still further you must reject the apostasy passages, like 2Pet2:20-22 and Jms5:19-20, either claiming "they never FELL" or "they were NEVER SAVED" (both views violating the wording of the passages)---or you adopt DISPENSATIONISM and reject Peter's & James' letters outright. No, very respectfully, I would say that yours is the "long-winded & elaborate interpretation"...

It is pretty straight forward.

Yeeeeaaaahhh, it seems so to me, too. But it isn't straitforward to both of us in the same way, is it?

When Paul says, "...to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT BE MOVE AWAY from the Hope of the Gospel (JESUS!)"---it does seem pretty straightforward. "Therefore do not throw away your confidence (again JESUS!)" (Col1:23,Heb10:35) Ahhh, but to you, these are only empty hyperbole.

Well, then, we shall hafta agree to disagree. And this I pray for you, that your love may abound still more in real knowledge and all discernment, that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless for the day of Christ.

And if you have the same prayer for me, I shall be honored & blessed...

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Now, that's too bad. 'Cause, if I was in error, and you could teach me how I was in error, then I would be prone to change. But alas, I shall hafta remain in error, no?

As often as we believers of the doctrine of predestination make efforts to "convince" others that our viewpoint is biblically valid and accurate the truth is we err.  We spend inordinate amounts of time quibbling over every little possible meaning of Scripture while at the same time preaching that it is God who will bring about His Will.  Well, at some point it becomes readily obvious to us that God has decided that you should not be enlightened about this Truth at this time.  So, it is much easier for us to "lean not on our own understanding" but rather to trust that God, whom we know is sovereign in all things, will bring about His Will according to His own counsel.  If I were of your belief I would think that I could eventually intellectually "teach you."  You will remain in error until God decides to enlighten you.  Whom He will use is of no consequence because it is God who will sovereignly bring about your understanding if He sees fit to do so.

And if you have the same prayer for me, I shall be honored & blessed...

I will definitely pray that God will fill you with the peace that can only come through understanding.

God bless,

Don

 

[Gabriel]

I couldn't have said it better.