Predestination

[Kersh]

I thought about saying that, but the main thrust of the OP seemed to be that our friend just couldn't wrap her thinking around the message of the sermons. For that reason, leaving this church right now seems premature.

If she were firmly committed to the Arminian POV, it might be different, but at this stage, she is simply uncertain. Of course there is also the matter of the sermons being repetitious and therefore unfulfilling, but leaving for that reason alone is still something that ought to be done only as a last resort IMHO.

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I deeply appreciate the humility and thoughtfulness of this response. I do not take lightly the idea of leaving a church. But, if your church experience causes you to believe that you are beyond saving, then it's a toxic environment. I can see the other side of not wanting to leave prematurely, however, especially over a debatable theological issue.

 

[Dave L]

They can have their names blotted out.

Exodus 32:33
Rev 3:5

“The one who conquers will be dressed like them in white clothing, and I will never erase his name from the book of life, but will declare his name before my Father and before his angels.” (Revelation 3:5)

This is not a threat. It is a promise to over-comers.

 

[sdowney717]

In Calvinisms defence. I don't think they say you cannot repent or believe. Faith is subconscious and is a gift from above. Nobody is stopping you from believing except if you don't have faith to begin with. I say stay with the Word first and foremost. This is exactly the problem with most Christians today. They want to change the Word to say what they want to believe instead of lining their thoughts up with the Word of God. This attitude will prove exactly just that, that election is off. That is unless you can repent. Or else just throw away your Bible because you don't believe it anyway. Christianity is about obedience to God's Word.

Those who attack 'Calvinism' attack the doctrine of 'by grace alone through faith alone', always adding on other requirements, such as baptismal regeneration, doing good works, being born again is according to the will of the man, having the right thoughts, you know what I am saying.

Ephesians 2:5 'For by grace you have been saved', gets perverted into grace plus something you must do or have correct thinking or knowledge to be saved. God's grace granted to us to believe in Christ and to trust Him by faith is also granted.
Ephesians says none of this is of ourselves, if faith was OF US, then we would not need any grace to believe and be saved. His gift to us of faith does become our faith, but that occurs only after it is given to us, that it is then ours is true as of all gifts. If I gift to you something, it is then yours.

And being born again comes prior to that faith, since the natural mind is at enmity (warfare) with God and can not be submitted to God and can not please God, a natural man can not believe in Christ. We must first be born of God to then believe in His Son or we just wont do so.

Romans 12:3 describes faith as a spiritual gift, and it has granted to us in varying degrees.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I deeply appreciate the humility and thoughtfulness of this response. I do not take lightly the idea of leaving a church. But, if your church experience causes you to believe that you are beyond saving, then it's a toxic environment. I can see the other side of not wanting to leave prematurely, however, especially over a debatable theological issue.

That's right. It's not a light decision at all, but extremely weighty. And she's got weighty reason, according to the OP. It's not about the double predestination, though that's an error. It's about the absence of all the rest of the gospel! Of Christianity, no less.

 

[aiki]

The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

What's disturbing about the "doctrines of grace" (aka - Calvinism) is that they turn out to be exceedingly devoid of grace. God doesn't really intend the Gospel for all, in the Calvinistic approach to soteriology, but only a few whom He has sovereignly decreed should be saved. The rest He has made to be wicked and to be tormented eternally in Hell. Does this sound like grace to you? It doesn't to me.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

There are kinds of Calvinism. Some kinds are more extreme, others are "softer." Regardless, most of the petals of TULIP create huge logical inconsistencies for the Calvinist.

It is typical but still horrible that your pastor is so committed to his Calvinistic views that people who love Christ and live holy, God-honoring lives but who are in disagreement with Calvinist doctrines were forced to leave the church. Calvinism often has this divisive effect on churches. This should be a clear indicator, it seems to me, that there is something wrong with Calvinism.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if your pastor agreed with you that your confusion regarding Calvinism is a sign you aren't one of the elect. Logically speaking, Calvinism leaves no room for there to be other soteriological points of view. If you don't accept TULIP, you aren't saved. I've heard Jeff Durbin, John Piper, John MacArthur, James White and others make this clear in their sermons.

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be.

What do you mean you don't relate to the testimonies of other people who've been saved? Do you mean your conversion experience doesn't parallel theirs? If so, in what way?

And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything.

Well, there is a Hell to be shunned. It is what Jesus came to save you from. You're right, though: If our eternal destination is predestined by God, you will be saved - or not - no matter what you do. This is one of the problems with especially the harder-line versions of Calvinism.

Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.com (see Molinism)

I don't know your conversion story, so it's hard to say how you should think about the genuineness of your salvation. Rest assured, though, that Calvinism is not the only biblical perspective to take on the doctrine of salvation. There are, in my opinion, much better perspectives to adopt. See above.

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

Salvation is offered to the whole world. But salvation involves repentance, and confession, and saving faith, not just intellectually agreeing to the tenets of the Gospel.

Armenianism is not the only other view of salvation that there is. Traditionalism, Molinism, even the heretical Pelagianist view are distinct from both Calvinism and Armenianism.

 

[Albion]

But I noticed in the OP she says it's the only message of the sermons since the new pastor, an obsession/pet issue -- all (double-)predestination/grace. Did you notice that detail in the first paragraph there? In other words, the problem isn't just repetition. It's the absence of the rest of the gospel, the absence of...well, what is preached in most all other churches.

Yeh. However, I did say that the sermons were unfulfilling (for her).

 

[bling]

Calvinism instead of complicating salvation or making one wonder if they are saved, teaches the opposite. Scriptures says your belief is granted to you by the Father, you are saved by His grace because He made you a new creation in Christ according to His will for you. If you believe in Christ, then you are elect. Calvinism simply exposes these truths. If salvation was entirely synergistic, then your salvation depends on you and your performance. Scripture says for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And you are not your own, you were bought at a price, so then a purchased possession and after you believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise as a guarantee of your eternal inheritance.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.


Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Philippians 1
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

The reason the Calvinist has an issue with his/her own salvation is the fact they continue in some sins, are sinning or have a hard time not sinning. They also see individual who thought they were saved seemingly fall away and think they could do the same.

Why does God not keep the saved elect person from sin?

The "Calvinist" cannot of their own autonomous free will humbly accept God's pure sacrificial charity in the form of forgiveness, because he would have "done" something so "...he that is forgiven much Loves much..." does not apply to him/her because they did not do the accepting, but it was forced on them (not a result of something they did).

It does allow the Calvinist from ever feeling they accepted charity (which is hard to do).

The person who has accepted God's forgiveness (charity) will automatically Love with an unbelievable huge Love. The knowledge of that salvation is found with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[sdowney717]

The instance of Pharaoh in Exodus, who's heart God hardened against Israel, is especially instructive...if a person does in fact read Exodus.

That is, reads in Exodus starting in chapter 1.

Then we find out what happens in chapter 1 before God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

What did Pharaoh do in chapter 1?
https://biblehub.com/niv/exodus/1.htm
(most know of the brutal slavery vaguely, but how many know of the decree for infanticide?)

We learn from the scripture, and so we are instructed -- we see how it makes sense God then hardened his heart, after the facts of chapter 1 had already shown who pharaoh was...

Your also just proving that a hardened heart won't be coming to God in repentance, indeed can not do so, unless God wills it so by granting repentance to them.
This is like God giving men over to a reprobate mind to do evil things as Romans 1 says. People are naturally evil and hell bent. God gives every single human being over to a reprobate mind, if they are not chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4. Your either a slave of sin and the devil, following the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh thereof, or you are of God having been born again according to his mercy and great love for you.

We are His workmanship, God has made from the same lump of clay all mankind, some to be vessels of His mercy, the others to experience His Justice.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Albion]

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I deeply appreciate the humility and thoughtfulness of this response. I do not take lightly the idea of leaving a church. But, if your church experience causes you to believe that you are beyond saving, then it's a toxic environment.

This is why my recommendation was to speak with the pastor about it.

The idea that you are beyond saving is one that predestinarian Christians have thrown up to them all the time, so he--a trained pastor--is going to have an answer.

If that solves the problem for her, great. If she concludes otherwise, that would be the time to consider more drastic action IMO.

 

[sdowney717]

This is why my recommendation was to speak with the pastor about it.

The idea that you are beyond saving is one that predestinarian Christians have thrown up to them all the time, so he--a trained pastor--is going to have an answer.

If that solves the problem for her, great. If she concludes otherwise, that would be the time to consider more drastic action IMO.

If anyone abandons the faith, departs from Christ in unbelief, it is the fault of no man.
All that means is God has not annointed that person to know the truth in their 'inner man' because their inner man is dead, and not being taught by God and not being preserved - kept by him through faith.

For example,
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

And this too, IF you are of God, then the Holy Spirit abides in and teaches you, and you will abide in Christ. Otherwise, out you go, since your simply still of the world, an antichrist.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[Halbhh]

Your also just proving that a hardened heart won't be coming to God in repentance, indeed can not do so, unless God wills it so by granting repentance to them.
This is like God giving men over to a reprobate mind to do evil things as Romans 1 says. People are naturally evil and hell bent. God gives every single human being over to a reprobate mind, if they are not chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4. Your either a slave of sin and the devil, following the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh thereof, or you are of God having been born again according to his mercy and great love for you.

We are His workmanship, God has made from the same lump of clay all mankind, some to be vessels of His mercy, the others to experience His Justice.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Love that full Ephesians 2, v1-10 passage. About repentance i look to Christ's wording in Luke 15, of how the prodigal decides to confess, then encounters the rich forgiveness and Grace of our Father. (As in 1 John chapter 1). It's a mutual thing it seems.

Like a parent guiding a toddler. The toddler should take His hand, but also move his own legs (not think to drag his feet). We are able to love, have actual ability to love. Actual agency.

 

[Bobber]

The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

But he's really not teaching "God's grace". What he's putting out as God's grace strips it away from most of humanity. As I heard one put it recently it's a no hope for the most type gospel. Jesus said his gospel, which means good news is that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but should receive everlasting life. John 3:16

It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

Well each on has to decide these things exactly what they're going to set their tolerance level concerning some church teachings the don't believe line up with scripture. So what say you?

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

Well some good news for you is that Jesus said, "Seek And You Shall Find" Matt 7:7 Not maybe you will, not that you possibly might! He said you SHALL FIND. He that comes to me I will in no wise cast off John 6:37 AND Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matt 11:28-29

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be.

I wouldn't compare exactly what happens to others and believe it should happen to you the same way. Paul the Apostle was knocked to the ground by a blinding light and Jesus took away his sight for a few days when he got saved....so wanting anothers exact experience may not be the way to go. I'd suggest to you thought review once again scriptures like Romans 10:9-10,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That's the equivalent of you calling upon the Name of the Lord and you'll be saved if you haven't done that up to this point.

Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

I couldn't say nor could anyone else here say exactly if you're born again. But you can have peace to know it has nothing to do with God not wanting you saved for not being the elect. You need to dismiss that totally from your mind. Even Calvinists claim if you desire to seek God that means God is working in your life. Your Christians life is to be based on the word of God and not experience. I can only tell you the inventory I'd do for it seems you're saying that you don't actually experience the presence of God.

If not do review as I've said of verses like Rom 10:9-10 and declare to the Lord what you believe, thank him for it daily, have praise and worship each day, (not just in church) feed your spirit a good amount of time each day with the word of God even an hour or so a day...remember Jesus said to his disciples can't you watch with me for even one hour Matt 26:40 (prayer, worship, feeding on his words which means reading the Bible) Doing these things show God you're drawing close to him and he states draw near to God and he will draw near to you. James 4:8 That's a promise.

I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

Well sometimes they might be making things up in saying God did this or that for they're longing to point to things and prove God is active in their lives. I'm sure religious leaders in Jesus day did the same. Or sometimes what they're saying are true testimonies but such doesn't mean God approves of all the theological positions they've got in their minds. I think what you're wanting is for yourself to have more of an assurance that you yourself are in relationship with him and you feel his presence. IMO I'd just do what I was encouraging you to do above. God will manifest himself in very real ways that he deems best but make no mistake...salvation has been provided for you through Jesus!

 

[sdowney717]

Love that full Ephesians 2, v1-10 passage. About repentance i look to Christ's wording in Luke 15, of how the prodigal decides to confess, then encounters the rich forgiveness and Grace of our Father. (As in 1 John chapter 1). It's a mutual thing it seems.

Like a parent guiding a toddler. The toddler should take His hand, but also move his own legs (not think to drag his feet). We are able to love, have actual ability to love. Actual agency.

The prodigal son was always a son of the Father, just lost doing his own selfish thing. In that the son came to himself, would be God was working in Him to bring him back to Himself by the circumstances of the sons life.
The world's plan was to tempt the son and to destroy the son.
And then we read the Father saw the son returning from a far ways off, so the Father was always looking for and expecting the son to return to him. What a great Father we have in God. The world can never know the Father like this.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 14:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[Halbhh]

The prodigal son was always a son of the Father, just lost doing his own selfish thing. In that the son came to himself, would be God was working in Him to bring him back to Himself by the circumstances of the sons life. And then we read the Father saw the son returning from a far ways off, so the Father was always looking for and expecting the son to return to him. What a great Father we have in God. The world can never know the Father like this.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 14:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Yes, we entirely agree on these. See, there is real choice though, as wording in John 3:16-17 -- it's "whoever" ("whosoever"). And that God did not send to son in order to condemn the world.... Rather, some will choose after hearing the true gospel to reject Him, but He came to save any that would respond, and all are drawn by God that haven't willfully refused.

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."


Hopefully we notice all the wording (and that takes time). See how finally verse 20 also stands out on this? There is agency involved.

And humbleness. That we are humble enough to confess our sinfulness. That's not prideful.

 

[JoeP222w]

.

 

[sdowney717]

Jonah finally said, Salvation is of the Lord, and only then the fish vomited Jonah out onto the dry land.
The work of God is that we believe in Christ.
No one comes to the Father except by Christ.
There is not any other way to the Father, but by Christ and His work and intercessions for us, which is demonstrated love, God's love manifested towards us, whereby we might live and are saved.

John is writing to Christ's elect church here. Christ was manifested to take away our sins. Christ said if you do not believe that I am HE, (meaning God come in the flesh), you will die in your sins. The sins of the world are not taken away in Christ, they die in them.

1 John 3:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

If someone teaches that the worlds sins are forgiven them for the sake of Christ, that is a lie. Persons who do not believe on Christ die in their sins and experience the wrath of God. Jesus Christ saves us from the wrath of God to come, our sins are forgiven us, because we believe in Christ. We are become the righteousness of God in Christ.
In His name is preached the forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[oldrunner]

The problem is not understanding the atonement and not understanding the absolute depraved and lost state everyone is in according to the Scriptures, IMO. We look at Scriptures that appear to teach a true, chosen believer can lose their salvation, and this becomes our doctrine. We then have to work for our salvation to stay saved. We get the cart before the horse, so to say.

Man will always love "religion", which is what man does to earn Gods favor or Heaven. Salvation is God's free gift from above, that cannot be worked for, willed up from within us, or bought. And it is as eternal as the God Who does the work for us.

#1. Everyone is born in a dead spiritual condition, will die, and are under the wrath of God. This sin nature is passed on from Adam on down, only Jesus broke this chain when He was born of a virgin, by the Holy Spirit, and only He had no sin nature- cause He is God too. (1st Cor. 15:22, Romans 5, Hebrews 1, 2, 4) Paul gives us the description of everyone who is ever born- our condition and standing in the eyes of a Holy God. (Romans 3:9-18, Isa. 53) We all like sheep have gone astray, each have turned to our own way, and no one seeks God, not one of us understands.

If everyone is like this, God Himself has to provide the way back to Him (and He has through what Jesus did on the cross and His resurrection from the dead), He has to choose us, and enable us to come to Him. This is clearly taught in the Scriptures, and is a matter of contention- though I don't know why, except it is a spiritual battle, and we have unsaved people in the Church along with believers. I'd rather God did it all than me having to do it. If it was up to me, I'd be in bad shape, that is for sure!

#2. God chose us "in Christ", before the foundation of the world. He chose us and the predestinated us as individuals to be His children. After all, the Church is made up of individuals. (Eph. 1) He "knows" us in a personal way. (Romans 8:29) Why does He chose some and not others? We see in the example of the potter and the pot or clay. (Romans 9) The answer is: God can do what He wants, who are we (the lump of clay) to argue with our Creator?... I mean, right?

We should be grateful we are on the team! Not saying God is not right to choose who ever He wants to be on His team. This is reading 21st century, political correctness into the Bible and applying it to God. God only has an "A" team. And most of us are weak and not very pretty in the worlds eyes.

#3. God draws us to Himself, provides the faith for our initial believing in Him, and seals the deal with the Holy Spirit- Who will never leave us; putting us into the body of Christ, the Church. The Holy Spirit is the down payment from God, the guarantee of our inheritance, showing that God is good toward keeping His promises. And this showing our whole being will be redeemed someday-at the 1st resurrection, to the praise of His glory. This is a free gift of God, that no one can earn, and it is not worked up in ourselves, but it comes from above, from God Himself!

Jesus said plainly, that no one can come to the Father unless it is granted by the Father. (John 6:22-71) Many disciples quit following Jesus when they heard this. I thought I came to Jesus out of my own "free will", when I was first saved- until I read this, and understood how lost I really was in God's eyes in Romans 3.

Paul states that saving faith is a free gift of God, afterward the gift of Faith given by the Holy Spirit is for the working in the body of Christ. (Eph. 1, 1st Cor. 12-13)

Here is what the Bible teaches us what happens at the moment of conversion; and actually-the regeneration is probably a split second before, along with the faith/trust to believe. (Eph. 1:13-14, Titus 3:5)

That it is not from ourselves is made painfully evident in John 1:12-13. NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN. That be this supposed "free will", we have inside us.

If words mean anything, everything I laid out up there is true. We cannot just decide to believe in Jesus without the choosing and enablement of God happening behind the scene. This is exactly why no one will be able to boast and say, I did it! This is the only viewpoint that is Scriptural, and brings glory to God. The One Who thought it up, planned it out, and carried it out, without man-kind's will. There are many professing believers in the Church today, but only God knows who His are. The thing is to make sure you are saved and are trusting in God alone, not works that are added on. (Gal. 1, 2, 3)

Free will is a doctrine of the world, plain and simple. Not of the Bible. Just look up the dictionary definition! The Bible says there has to be Divine intervention. Who will we believe?

All of us only have a limited free will to start with- this under the grace and mercy of God. We all breathe the same air, saved and unsaved, chosen and not. We are in God's debt for the life He allows us to live, cause He numbers our days. To say we are in control of our destiny is an affront to God and makes man into his own "God". Sadly, this is where we are at in this day and time.

The gospel call goes out to, "who so ever will", and we don't know who the chosen ones are. But the Bible teaches us that only the chosen ones will make it to Heaven, and not of their own will or walk, but because of God's will and promise. Which I am very, very, grateful!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jonah finally said, Salvation is of the Lord, and only then the fish vomited Jonah out onto the dry land.
The work of God is that we believe in Christ.
No one comes to the Father except by Christ.
There is not any other way to the Father, but by Christ and His work and intercessions for us, which is demonstrated love, God's love manifested towards us, whereby we might live and are saved.

John is writing to Christ's elect church here. Christ was manifested to take away our sins. Christ said if you do not believe that I am HE, (meaning God come in the flesh), you will die in your sins. The sins of the world are not taken away in Christ, they die in them.

1 John 3:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

If someone teaches that the worlds sins are forgiven them for the sake of Christ, that is a lie. Persons who do not believe on Christ die in their sins and experience the wrath of God. Jesus Christ saves us from the wrath of God to come, our sins are forgiven us, because we believe in Christ. We are become the righteousness of God in Christ.
In His name is preached the forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The story of Jonah is a perfect refutation of Calvinism or forced salvationism. For God was going to bring wrath upon the Ninevites. But the Ninevites repented and forsaked their evil ways. It was not until they forsaked their sins that God decided to no longer bring wrath or judgment upon them. Their repentance is what averted Judgment and it was not some kind of forced regeneration or forced salvation going on.

 

[Halbhh]

The problem is not understanding the atonement and not understanding the absolute depraved and lost state everyone is in according to the Scriptures, IMO. We look at Scriptures that appear to teach a true, chosen believer can lose their salvation, and this becomes our doctrine. We then have to work for our salvation to stay saved. We get the cart before the horse, so to say.

Man will always love "religion", which is what man does to earn Gods favor or Heaven. Salvation is God's free gift from above, that cannot be worked for, willed up from within us, or bought. And it is as eternal as the God Who does the work for us.

#1. Everyone is born in a dead spiritual condition, will die, and are under the wrath of God. This sin nature is passed on from Adam on down, only Jesus broke this chain when He was born of a virgin, by the Holy Spirit, and only He had no sin nature- cause He is God too. (1st Cor. 15:22, Romans 5, Hebrews 1, 2, 4) Paul gives us the description of everyone who is ever born- our condition and standing in the eyes of a Holy God. (Romans 3:9-18, Isa. 53) We all like sheep have gone astray, each have turned to our own way, and no one seeks God, not one of us understands.

If everyone is like this, God Himself has to provide the way back to Him (and He has through what Jesus did on the cross and His resurrection from the dead), He has to choose us, and enable us to come to Him. This is clearly taught in the Scriptures, and is a matter of contention- though I don't know why, except it is a spiritual battle, and we have unsaved people in the Church along with believers. I'd rather God did it all than me having to do it. If it was up to me, I'd be in bad shape, that is for sure!

#2. God chose us "in Christ", before the foundation of the world. He chose us and the predestinated us as individuals to be His children. After all, the Church is made up of individuals. (Eph. 1) He "knows" us in a personal way. (Romans 8:29) Why does He chose some and not others? We see in the example of the potter and the pot or clay. (Romans 9) The answer is: God can do what He wants, who are we (the lump of clay) to argue with our Creator?... I mean, right?

We should be grateful we are on the team! Not saying God is not right to choose who ever He wants to be on His team. This is reading 21st century, political correctness into the Bible and applying it to God. God only has an "A" team. And most of us are weak and not very pretty in the worlds eyes.

#3. God draws us to Himself, provides the faith for our initial believing in Him, and seals the deal with the Holy Spirit- Who will never leave us; putting us into the body of Christ, the Church. The Holy Spirit is the down payment from God, the guarantee of our inheritance, showing that God is good toward keeping His promises. And this showing our whole being will be redeemed someday-at the 1st resurrection, to the praise of His glory. This is a free gift of God, that no one can earn, and it is not worked up in ourselves, but it comes from above, from God Himself!

Jesus said plainly, that no one can come to the Father unless it is granted by the Father. (John 6:22-71) Many disciples quit following Jesus when they heard this. I thought I came to Jesus out of my own "free will", when I was first saved- until I read this, and understood how lost I really was in God's eyes in Romans 3.

Paul states that saving faith is a free gift of God, afterward the gift of Faith given by the Holy Spirit is for the working in the body of Christ. (Eph. 1, 1st Cor. 12-13)

Here is what the Bible teaches us what happens at the moment of conversion; and actually-the regeneration is probably a split second before, along with the faith/trust to believe. (Eph. 1:13-14, Titus 3:5)

That it is not from ourselves is made painfully evident in John 1:12-13. NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN. That be this supposed "free will", we have inside us.

If words mean anything, everything I laid out up there is true. We cannot just decide to believe in Jesus without the choosing and enablement of God happening behind the scene. This is exactly why no one will be able to boast and say, I did it! This is the only viewpoint that is Scriptural, and brings glory to God. The One Who thought it up, planned it out, and carried it out, without man-kind's will. There are many professing believers in the Church today, but only God knows who His are. The thing is to make sure you are saved and are trusting in God alone, not works that are added on. (Gal. 1, 2, 3)

Free will is a doctrine of the world, plain and simple. Not of the Bible. Just look up the dictionary definition! The Bible says there has to be Divine intervention. Who will we believe?

All of us only have a limited free will to start with- this under the grace and mercy of God. We all breathe the same air, saved and unsaved, chosen and not. We are in God's debt for the life He allows us to live, cause He numbers our days. To say we are in control of our destiny is an affront to God and makes man into his own "God". Sadly, this is where we are at in this day and time.

The gospel call goes out to, "who so ever will", and we don't know who the chosen ones are. But the Bible teaches us that only the chosen ones will make it to Heaven, and not of their own will or walk, but because of God's will and promise. Which I am very, very, grateful!

It's clear there is language confusion about this very often. And the only aid to that language confusion is tell everyone to read fully through entire books, taking their time. For instance Romans is often misunderstood unless one reads fully through it without an aim to finish quickly, but instead an aim to understand all. When we read Paul quoting a part of a verse "no one seeks God" (about a time in the Old Testament when Israel was very lost), Paul has a broad point he wants to communicate -- we are all lost in sin to begin with. We aren't able to redeem ourselves. We cannot become righteous through our own effort. So, when Christ instructs us believers in Matthew 7 to seek, Paul isn't contradicting Christ and saying no believers seek God. In fact, believers do and should seek God. So, therefore many seek God. Paul has a meaning, and that meaning is about our condition of being lost before we come to Christ in faith. See, I bet we already agree largely about all of this, and that's why I call it "language confusion" -- very often in these discussions people end up talking right past each other, mistakenly thinking the other person means something they do not. So, therefore, I don't presume you disagree. I also don't presume you'll even understand precisely what I mean to say, because my communication isn't perfect either.

It's helpful to be aware that when 5 people use the term "free will" the strong likelihood is that they have 4 or 5 different sets of assumptions about what is meant by the term. So, they all end up arguing past each other, and not even knowing what the other person actually believes even.

Often one person means (among several additional assumptions) by "free will" only and merely and simply the God-given ability of human beings to think and make choices, not more than merely that.

But another person takes the meaning of "free will" to be radically more -- the ability to find God and reconcile to God without God helping. Those differences in meaning are like night vs day. Radical.

So they end up never even knowing what the other person is saying.

Tower of Babel. And that's the normal, even face to face. It takes tremendous patience and sympathy and work to actually learn precisely what another person thinks/believes on such deep topics.

 

[sdowney717]

The story of Jonah is a perfect refutation of Calvinism or forced salvationism. For God was going to bring wrath upon the Ninevites. But the Ninevites repented and forsaked their evil ways. It was not until they forsaked their sins that God decided to no longer bring wrath or judgment upon them. Their repentance is what averted Judgment and it was not some kind of forced regeneration or forced salvation going on.

There is no idea the ninevites were spared hell and saved. This was under the OC system, and they were not joined to Israel, and could not offer sacrifices, and had no priests of the Lord.