Predestination.

[pawnraider]

I saw this on twitter and I would like to know how you would respond.

"How can we obey when God has already predetermined our fate."

 

[jdbrown]

We can only obey according to the flesh or according to God's grace.

 

[pawnraider]

We can only obey according to the flesh or according to God's grace.

Care to explain?

 

[JM]

I saw this on twitter and I would like to know how you would respond.

"How can we obey when God has already predetermined our fate."

He is confusing the little 'god' of pagan imagination with the God of the Bible, he is confusing fatalism with biblical predestination or determinism.

Vincent Cheung writes,

By “fatalism,” I refer to the teaching that all events are predetermined by impersonal forces regardless of means, so that no matter what a person does, the same outcome will result. By “determinism,” I am specifically referring to theological or divine determinism — I am referring to the teaching that the personal God of the Bible has intelligently and immutably predetermined all events, including all human thoughts, decisions, and actions, and that by predetermining both the ends and the means to those ends.

and

What are people going to accuse me of now? I can’t be accused of teaching fatalism, since I am saying that fatalism is too weak! But slanderers will think of something.[end quote]

Essentially, God uses means (human actions, events, etc.) to work out His decrees, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2.13

Even the tweet was God working through human action for His glory...can I get an Amen?

 

[pawnraider]

He is confusing the little 'god' of pagan imagination with the God of the Bible, he is confusing fatalism with biblical predestination or determinism.

Vincent Cheung writes,

By “fatalism,” I refer to the teaching that all events are predetermined by impersonal forces regardless of means, so that no matter what a person does, the same outcome will result. By “determinism,” I am specifically referring to theological or divine determinism — I am referring to the teaching that the personal God of the Bible has intelligently and immutably predetermined all events, including all human thoughts, decisions, and actions, and that by predetermining both the ends and the means to those ends.

and

What are people going to accuse me of now? I can’t be accused of teaching fatalism, since I am saying that fatalism is too weak! But slanderers will think of something.[end quote]

Essentially, God uses means (human actions, events, etc.) to work out His decrees, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2.13

Even the tweet was God working through human action for His glory...can I get an Amen?

It sounds to me like you've just proved the tweeter right.

 

[JM]

It sounds to me like you've just proved the tweeter right.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2.13

 

[JM]

"How can we obey when God has already predetermined our fate."

Another way to look at it...

Jesus 'thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.' Lazarus was dead and did not have the ability to 'come forth' yet it was commanded of him to do so. God also gives us commands we cannot keep, acts we cannot perform, and all of it with the aim at perfection after His image. We are unable to even approach His holiness and the Law 'was added because of transgressions' to point us to the Son of God. A holy conversation or walk in this world is only by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, not something we can attain or a goal to achieve. It is the work of God in us. 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son...' Romans 8

jm

 

[bsd058]

I saw this on twitter and I would like to know how you would respond.

"How can we obey when God has already predetermined our fate."

God hasn't only predestined our end, but also the logical implications of that end.

If a man will be glorified, then certainly he must first be justified. (Rom 8:30)

If a man is justified and brought into the kingdom of God, then he certainly has been born again of the Spirit. (John 3:3)

But more than this, God has predestined us--His elect--to be conformed to the image of his Son. (Rom 8:28)

Being conformed to the image of His Son involves doing the good works which God prepared for us to do beforehand. (Eph 2:10)

So, God has also predestined us--His elect--to obey Him, and this is the logical outcome of being born of God. (1 John 3:6)

As for those prepared for destruction (Prov 16:4), the ability to perform God's will has no bearing on whether or not a man is culpable before God (Rom 9:20). The man who is in the flesh cannot obey God (Rom 8:7). But, neither is he willing to obey God (Gal 5:17).

 

[christ disciple]

I saw this on twitter and I would like to know how you would respond.

"How can we obey when God has already predetermined our fate."

? How could we not, if He has already predetermined it to be so?

Would this not be the natural outflow of one who has been granted "Grace"?

Likewise, the one who does not "obey" reveals "what" about themselves?

 

[JM]

Likewise, the one who does not "obey" reveals "what" about themselves?

Those who persevere in the faith do so by God's continue grace and mercy alone. We were saved from all eternity by decree, we were saved at the cross in time and we will be glorified by what Christ has done in the future. From beginning to end the work belongs to God.



______________________________________________

Historical References:

The London Baptist Confession, 1689 reads; This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. ( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 ) 17.2

In section 3 we also read; through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. ( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

 

[christ disciple]

Those who persevere in the faith do so by God's continue grace and mercy alone. We were saved from all eternity by decree, we were saved at the cross in time and we will be glorified by what Christ has done in the future. From beginning to end the work belongs to God.



______________________________________________

Historical References:

The London Baptist Confession, 1689 reads; This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. ( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 ) 17.2

In section 3 we also read; through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. ( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

All of Grace! Amen!

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I saw this on twitter and I would like to know how you would respond.

"How can we obey when God has already predetermined our fate."

I would first think about the presuppositions of the statement. What are the assumptions behind such a statement?

Assumption #1: We can obey without God
Assumption #2: Predestination is no different than fatalism

and my response to those assumptions:

#1 Without faith it is impossible to please (and or obey) God, and faith, the kind that saves, faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from God.

#2 Biblical predestination, that Calvinists subscribe to is not to be confused with fatalism. According to fatalism, fate is in control, thus fate controls God and or they are one and the same. (see Monism, Pantheism wiki articles)

#3 The biggest problem with such assumptions are they fail to make a Creator - creation distinction. Yes, there is a failure in such statements to distinguish between first and secondary causes, which is neither in tune with Scripture nor historical Christianity nor historical Calvinism. If you're familiar with the classical arguments for the existence of God throughout the history of Christian apologetics, you know that one of them is the cosmological argument which argues from a first cause or uncaused cause (God) to secondary causes (Creation), via causual chains.

Second I would present Scripture which explicitly uses the terminology "Predestined, before the foundation of the world", and also Scripture explicitly stating who chooses who etc., AND remind them that the doctrine of Predestination is not exclusive to Calvinism.

Third, I would point out the issue between omniscience and sovereignty and how the issue is not exclusive to Calvinists, and therefore Christians should not berate or belittle other Christians with such ignorant statements. I might even point out how determinism is not exclusive in our theology, and it's compatibility with our Science.

Finally, I might even in a round about way explain how such statements are nothing but a lame excuse for sinful rebellious behavior, a mockery of true Christianity, the strawmen of non-belief.

Depending on the responses, I might give book recommendations on the subject. As you can see there are many routes to take in responding to just one little statement.