Predestination

[cygnusx1]

Your argument makes no sense.

sure it does , at least one person on this thread follows it quite well.

I can choose to be a democrat, muslim, vegetarian, etc.

choice isn't the issue it's why we choose .........

I have decided not to do those things by using the free will God has given me.

you need to go back and think over my questions , your mind is regulated by knowledge or the lack of it , and your will is regulated by your mind , free-will needs defining !

 

[Montalban]

choice isn't the issue it's why we choose .........

If God is forcing us then we're not really choosing.

 

[Montalban]

straw man !

choice is agreed by all , independent choice (free-will) is the problem , can't you discern the difference ?

You may need to look up the term 'straw-man'.

If you can ask a question of non-Calvinists, then I can ask the same back of Calvinists.

A straw-man is if I create an argument that you didn't make and argue against that. Asking your own question back is not creating an argument. And I didn't argue against it, anyway.

The only 'argument' I made was against someone answering a question put to me from MamaZ, for me. That itself might lead to a straw-man, by creating an answer that I may not have given myself.



Also you said "none Calvinists" when I believe you meant "non-Calvinists"

 

[Montalban]

ANd heaven is beautiful, you really wanna go their trust me!

Unfortunately, Calvinists here say that some people have been created for hell. So us 'wanting' to go to heaven wouldn't matter.

 

[cygnusx1]

If God is forcing us then we're not really choosing.

who said God is forcing ? another straw man .

x = x not y

Choice is agreed by all

FREE-Choice is open to disagreement for many reasons ..

even a dog makes decisions , hardly free ones .

you cannot escape your conditioning , neither can you escape your fallen nature , hence the absolute necessity of the new birth

 

[Hammster]

Unfortunately, Calvinists here say that some people have been created for hell. So us 'wanting' to go to heaven wouldn't matter.

A straw-man is if I create an argument that you didn't make and argue against that.

You would think that since you know what a straw-man argument it, you would quit making them.

 

[Montalban]

who said God is forcing ? another straw man .

So God, who consigns some to hell and forces people to do evil allows people to believe in Free Will, or Calvinism?

x = x not y

Choice is agreed by all

FREE-Choice is open to disagreement for many reasons ..

even a dog makes decisions , hardly free ones .

you cannot escape your conditioning , neither can you escape your fallen nature , hence the absolute necessity of the new birth

Your analogy seems to contradict your argument. You're talking about that we DO have free choices as opposed to the idea of "Free Will" (which is restricted) and then you go example a dog and say that his choices 'free'? What does that mean? If you don't have a free choice (as per a dog) what then are your choices? If they are instinct, then you're compelled by your nature to make those choices and this is what I said Calvinists stand for; being compelled.

Why is God allowing us to choose anything, but Him? It seems your idea of God is that he will allow me the choice in whether or not I'm going to have pizza for tea, but that he won't allow me the choice of God. Or, if he does allow me to freely choose God, my choosing of God makes no difference to God anyway, because he may have created me for hell.

 

[Montalban]

Is it a straw-man???

The position of Calvin was that man was made for hell.

(Calvinist) author Arthur Pink, also boldly taught that God has predestined some to be saved and equally predestined others to be damned to hell. Pink said the person predestined to salvation will absolutely be saved nothing he does can to prevent it. This is the teaching of Irresistible Grace. If God offers grace then it cannot be refused. On the other hand, the unfortunate soul who has been chosen by God to be lost is not offered grace, but is born for hell and cannot receive Christ.
Is Calvinism or Arminianism Biblical?

The only error might be in saying "Calvinists here" as opposed to "Calvinists" excepting that Calvinism is as stated in the quote atop this post and that people HERE supporting Calvinism have said we have no choice in the matter of gaining God's grace.

 

[Hammster]

Is it a straw-man???

The position of Calvin was that man was made for hell.

(Calvinist) author Arthur Pink, also boldly taught that God has predestined some to be saved and equally predestined others to be damned to hell. Pink said the person predestined to salvation will absolutely be saved nothing he does can to prevent it. This is the teaching of Irresistible Grace. If God offers grace then it cannot be refused. On the other hand, the unfortunate soul who has been chosen by God to be lost is not offered grace, but is born for hell and cannot receive Christ.
Is Calvinism or Arminianism Biblical?

The only error might be in saying "Calvinists here" as opposed to "Calvinists" excepting that Calvinism is as stated in the quote atop this post and that people HERE supporting Calvinism have said we have no choice in the matter of gaining God's grace.

Your straw-man was in your implication that some will want to go to heaven who won't be allowed because of predestination.

 

[chestertonrules]

Your straw-man was in your implication that some will want to go to heaven who won't be allowed because of predestination.

Can you name one man who wants to go to hell?

Your argument is made of straw in this case.

 

[Hammster]

Can you name one man who wants to go to hell?

Your argument is made of straw in this case.

I didn't say that people want to go to Hell. I said that there are no people who want to go to Heaven by the means that God has provided that will be left out because they are not predestined. If you can show me where I said that people want to go to hell, I will retract my statement and offer an apology.

 

[chestertonrules]

I didn't say that people want to go to Hell. I said that there are no people who want to go to Heaven by the means that God has provided that will be left out because they are not predestined. If you can show me where I said that people want to go to hell, I will retract my statement and offer an apology.

Are there any other destinations than heaven or hell? Don't play semantics games.

God has given us clear instructions about what will get us put into Hell.

You ignore these instructions at your own peril.

 

[Hammster]

Are there any other destinations than heaven or hell? Don't play semantics games.

God has given us clear instructions about what will get us put into Hell.

You ignore these instructions at your own peril.

Okay, but that is different than implying that I said that people want to go to Hell. I never said that, nor implied that. Not wanting to go to Hell does not mean that all that is left is wanting to go to Heaven.

 

[chestertonrules]

Okay, but that is different than implying that I said that people want to go to Hell. I never said that, nor implied that. Not wanting to go to Hell does not mean that all that is left is wanting to go to Heaven.

What else is there?

 

[Hammster]

What else is there?

Have you ever heard of atheism?

 

[chestertonrules]

Have you ever heard of atheism?

There are only two final destinations, regardless of what a person on earth believes.

 

[cygnusx1]

So God, who consigns some to hell and forces people to do evil allows people to believe in Free Will, or Calvinism?

who said God forces anyone to sin ?

when will you quit shooting blanks ? who here in this thread or any thread speaks of God forcing anyone to sin ? Men don't need forcing and predestination or foreordination or Divine determination concerning sins have no need of Divine force , men sin willingly .

Your analogy seems to contradict your argument. You're talking about that we DO have free choices as opposed to the idea of "Free Will" (which is restricted) and then you go example a dog and say that his choices 'free'? What does that mean? If you don't have a free choice (as per a dog) what then are your choices? If they are instinct, then you're compelled by your nature to make those choices and this is what I said Calvinists stand for; being compelled.

choices exist everyone knows it , what is open to dispute , and this has been disputed for hundreds of years , is the Philospohical concept known today as Libertarian free-will which directly contradicts Biblical data .
Was Judas making a choice to betray Christ ? yes !
Was Judas descision to sin foreordained predetermined by God ? Yes!
Was Judas able tpo thwart and confound God's plan and His sons predictions ? No .

There we have the core issue . Human choice exists within Divine Knowledge Foreknowledge as well as Divine predetermination and Divine Decree exacted through Divine Providence .

Read carefully Acts 2 and 4 , note the idea is NOT merely Divine foreknowledge of sinful actions but Divine Decree .

Why is God allowing us to choose anything, but Him? It seems your idea of God is that he will allow me the choice in whether or not I'm going to have pizza for tea, but that he won't allow me the choice of God. Or, if he does allow me to freely choose God, my choosing of God makes no difference to God anyway, because he may have created me for hell.

choose all you like , you will still do what is predictable , God has always Known what you would do , and He has planned what He knows .Otherwise He would have no decree , no plan , and no sure knowledge , He would be ever learning , instead of Decreeing that which comes to pass .

 

[chestertonrules]

who said God forces anyone to sin ?

when will you quit shooting blanks ? who here in this thread or any thread speaks of God forcing anyone to sin ? Men don't need forcing and predestination or foreordination or Divine determination concerning sins have no need of Divine force , men sin willingly .

So you believe that a man can live without sinning?

 

[cygnusx1]

So you believe that a man can live without sinning?

that all depends on which man .

a man in Christ may live for a time in victory over sin , a man in Adam sins in all he does , giving no Glory to God even when he does that which in itself is good , it is sin .

 

[chestertonrules]

that all depends on which man .

a man in Christ may live for a time in victory over sin , a man in Adam sins in all he does , giving no Glory to God even when he does that which in itself is good , it is sin .

You didn't really answer the question.

Can a man live without sinning?

If not, why not?