Predestination

[cygnusx1]

Honest answers only .

You anti or none Calvinists , can you choose to be a Calvinist ?

 

[Secundulus]

Honest answers only .

You anti or none Calvinists , can you choose to be a Calvinist ?

Yes I could. But I examined the evidence and found it lacking.

 

[Montalban]

Yes I could. But I examined the evidence and found it lacking.

I wonder if those who are Calvinists were compelled to be so?

 

[MamaZ]

I wonder if those who are Calvinists were compelled to be so?

Explain please

 

[AndOne]

Explain please

He is trying to tell us what we believe....

 

[MamaZ]

He is trying to tell us what we believe....

 

[annrobert]

This is not a debate.

This is not me waiting in the shadows to give a last reply on an opinion.

I'm honestly asking, out of lack of knowledge, if there is scripture that states this as true or not.

I guess it doesn't really matter because my beliefs won't change. I need to know this though. If anything, for witnessing purposes.



It's kind of a confusing circle when you get to thinking about it. I truly believe we have a choice. I believe he is all knowing. Is it all knowing "currently" and past. Is it all knowing in the future as well.

Was this all-knowing the reason he sent his son? Was the future changed by Jesus's death.

Is God waiting in the wings to see what each of us chooses, or is He watching a play that he created?

I want to know what others think, but I've been hesitant to before now because I didn't want to come off as doubting His existance. I don't.

Since Jesus died for us and forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness and gives us a new heart.

Jesus calls us to Him.

Reveals Truth to us.

Is not willing that any perish

Is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Invites whosoever will to come

will in no wise cast out anyone who comes to Him

Tells us to believe in Him

to taste and see that He is good

convicts us

and reveals to us who He is

gives us a soft heart and a new spirit

Commands all men everywhere to repent

Invites us to come over and over again

admonishes us to believe in Him

I think Jesus means it when He says He is not willing for any to perish

Jesus gives to each the measure of faith

He calls us all to come and drink freely from the Water of Life

Jesus did it all

He redeemed us

gives us faith

reveals truth to us

invites us to come

We only have to respond and come to Jesus
to believe in Jesus and and call out for mercy

After that we abide in Jesus with prayer and being renewed in the spirit of our mind and bear fruit.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 7:37
In the last day, that great day of thefeast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Luke 18
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes I could. But I examined the evidence and found it lacking.

I find your answer self defeating , even contradictory .

You think you can still choose to be a Calvinist but then you place a roadblock over that claim , a roadblock that clearly trumps your ability .

Here , given that you think you have examined "the evidence" and found it lacking , can you still in that frame of mind declare you can still choose to be a Calvinist ? If so explain just how .

explain how the will is free from the mind !

explain how the will is free from knowledge , assurance doubt and experiences ......

 

[Secundulus]

I find your answer self defeating , even contradictory .

You think you can still choose to be a Calvinist but then you place a roadblock over that claim , a roadblock that clearly trumps your ability .

Here , given that you think you have examined "the evidence" and found it lacking , can you still in that frame of mind declare you can still choose to be a Calvinist ? If so explain just how .

explain how the will is free from the mind !

The will is a reflection of the mind. We are not animals, simply moving about by instinct.

 

[cygnusx1]

The will is a reflection of the mind. We are not animals, simply moving about by instinct.

who said anything about animals , could you answer my questions one by one in detail?

how can a person choose beyond , outside , independently of reason , knowledge , limited knowledge , faith , assurance , experience , conditioning , religious influences , etc etc ???

If the will is a reflection of the mind can it act independently and do a thing out of step with the mind with all its parts ? If not , then where is the boast of free-will ? and where does that leave the mind if the will can act INSPITE of it ?

 

[Secundulus]

who said anything about animals , could you answer my questions one by one in detail?

how can a person choose beyond , outside , independently of reason , knowledge , limited knowledge , faith , assurance , experience , conditioning , religious influences , etc etc ???

You cannot choose outside those things. They inform it and enable it to make good decisions. At the same time all those things can be ignored. People make bad decisions all the time for a variety of reasons, usually for some sort of personal gain or satisfaction.

If the will is a reflection of the mind can it act independently and do a thing out of step with the mind with all its parts ? If not , then where is the boast of free-will ? and where does that leave the mind if the will can act INSPITE of it ?

I really don't understand your argument. A human is a unitary whole whose thinking part while in the body resides in the mind. This thinking part makes decisions we call the will.

Is your argument is that our mind is entirely guided by an outside force to always influence the will to act in a specific way?

 

[DonnyT]

In response to the op...

I haven't really read most of the 700+ posts in this thread so forgive me, but could it be that we can never truly attain free will since all things are created by God and those things have influence over our decisions. Ex. Ever wonder why some people no matter how much you try tell them who God is, they will never believe? Then there are others who are just drawn to Him relentlessly. One would say it's their decision that they choose to or not to believe. But doesn't God create the circumstances which influence whether they choose to or not.

Rev. 17:8 perhaps supports this theory
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

So in essence, there is no free will, relative to God's perspective since God is all knowing. We however don't know if we're chosen or not and thus must have faith in God's promise that He loves us and wants the best for us.

So are we merely actors in God's grand play? I think you have to keep in mind that God is the creator and nothing would come to pass if He doesn't create it; good or bad. God is simply putting into actions the events which will lead to his grand harvest.

 

[cygnusx1]

You cannot choose outside those things. They inform it and enable it to make good decisions. At the same time all those things can be ignored. People make bad decisions all the time for a variety of reasons, usually for some sort of personal gain or satisfaction.

exactly my point , human will cannot choose outside of the mind , the mind is confined and conditioned by knowledge , knowledge is often lacking and when present imperfect , the will cannot act independently of the mind or desire ........hence none can choose to be a Calvinist unless the mind is enlightened , just as none can become Christians simply by choosing .

I really don't understand your argument. A human is a unitary whole whose thinking part while in the body resides in the mind. This thinking part makes decisions we call the will.

the will is a servant to the mind , it doesn't act freely , and the mind of those outside of Christ is darkness .

Is your argument is that our mind is entirely guided by an outside force to always influence the will to act in a specific way?

[/QUOTE]
yes , according to circumstance Providence and knowledge or lack of it also "it may be the Devil or it may be the Lord ........ but your still gonna have to serve somebody " Dylan

 

[Secundulus]

exactly my point , human will cannot choose outside of the mind , the mind is confined and conditioned by knowledge , knowledge is often lacking and when present imperfect , the will cannot act independently of the mind or desire ........hence none can choose to be a Calvinist unless the mind is enlightened , just as none can become Christians simply by choosing .


the will is a servant to the mind , it doesn't act freely , and the mind of those outside of Christ is darkness .

It would appear from your two arguments that you are suggesting that

those who are not Calvinists are not enlightened
Enlightenment comes through Christ
so
Those who are not Calvinists are not in Christ

Is that it?

 

[storm9]

I'm honestly asking, out of lack of knowledge, if there is scripture that states this as true or not.



(A)It's kind of a confusing circle when you get to thinking about it. I truly believe we have a choice. I believe he is all knowing. Is it all knowing "currently" and past. Is it all knowing in the future as well.

(B)Was this all-knowing the reason he sent his son? Was the future changed by Jesus's death.

(C) Is God waiting in the wings to see what each of us chooses, or is He watching a play that he created?

I want to know what others think, but I've been hesitant to before now because I didn't want to come off as doubting His existance. I don't.

A) - We need to look in scripture to see what GOD knows.. He knows the past sure. We believe He is the God of the Present, able to heal and change kingdoms at his will (see OT). Does he know the future? Well This is the nature of GOd in that it is Said of Him ,'He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow' in relation to sin, meaning if we repent of our sins he will turn and Heal us. He CAN change the future.. so He does know the future, both on earth and the destiny of our souls...also I thnk...

(B) It was said that Jesus died for the Jewish nation, rather Him than the whole nation perish which was Gods reasoning also, this we have. So yes His death did change the future for that nation,.! AND us.

(C) Gods, 'sight' encompasses the whole earth, Hell and Destruction is before Him (Psalms) how much more so the hearts of men.... ANd heaven is beautiful, you really wanna go their trust me!

 

[chestertonrules]

Honest answers only .

You anti or none Calvinists , can you choose to be a Calvinist ?

Of course.

 

[chestertonrules]

I find your answer self defeating , even contradictory .

You think you can still choose to be a Calvinist but then you place a roadblock over that claim , a roadblock that clearly trumps your ability .

Here , given that you think you have examined "the evidence" and found it lacking , can you still in that frame of mind declare you can still choose to be a Calvinist ? If so explain just how .

explain how the will is free from the mind !

explain how the will is free from knowledge , assurance doubt and experiences ......

Your argument makes no sense.

I can choose to be a democrat, muslim, vegetarian, etc.

I have decided not to do those things by using the free will God has given me.

 

[Montalban]

He is trying to tell us what we believe....

Thank you for answering for me. But, I can do that myself.

You need to look at the Cavlinist asking if we (non-Calvinists) have a choice in what we believe. If that's a fair question then it's equally fair to ask Calvinists if they have a choice in what they believe to.

So far both yourself and MamaZ have not answered that question. However your answer did amuse her, so that's a positive.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thank you for answering for me. But, I can do that myself.

You need to look at the Cavlinist asking if we (non-Calvinists) have a choice in what we believe. If that's a fair question then it's equally fair to ask Calvinists if they have a choice in what they believe to.

So far both yourself and MamaZ have not answered that question. However your answer did amuse her, so that's a positive.

straw man !

choice is agreed by all , independent choice (free-will) is the problem , can't you discern the difference ?

 

[cygnusx1]

It would appear from your two arguments that you are suggesting that

those who are not Calvinists are not enlightened
Enlightenment comes through Christ
so
Those who are not Calvinists are not in Christ

Is that it?

are there not degrees of light ? sure there are .