Predestination

[Hammster]

I take it the opposition wishes to continue to ignore that Adam lived (for a while) without sin.

Never said he didn't. But death came through Adam, so all die. He, too, needed a Savior.

 

[Montalban]

Like I said earlier in this thread, Job was an example to satan that man would serve Him w/o what satan was accusing mankind of. That takes free will. otoh, God commisioned Cyrus before he was born.

I'm not sure what you mean regarding Job.

Job was an example of a righteous man who was tested because he was righteous.

It was a non-Judeo-Christian belief that if 'evil' befell a person it was because they had done some evil themselves.

Recall when Paul is bitten by a snake? The people (non-Chrisitans) speculated about what bad thing Paul had done.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm not sure what you mean regarding Job.

Job was an example of a righteous man who was tested because he was righteous.

It was a non-Judeo-Christian belief that if 'evil' befell a person it was because they had done some evil themselves.

Recall when Paul is bitten by a snake? The people (non-Chrisitans) speculated about what bad thing Paul had done.

This was the accusation against Job that was proven wrong, right?

Job 1:9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

 

[Montalban]

Given that Adam existed without sin then sinlessness is not beyond humanity.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Given that Adam existed without sin then sinlessness is not beyond humanity.

I disagree, spiritually forgiven at the throne of grace to clear the conscience in His blood. Sin is ever present because it's a part of the flesh that's not in resurrection state yet. Even Jesus was tempted in the flesh.

 

[Hammster]

Given that Adam existed without sin then sinlessness is not beyond humanity.

Scripture says otherwise. Until we are glorified, that is.

 

[Montalban]

I disagree, spiritually forgiven at the throne of grace to clear the conscience in His blood. Sin is ever present because it's a part of the flesh that's not in resurrection state yet. Even Jesus was tempted in the flesh.

Well, Adam was sinless until he was tempted with the fruit.

If Adam wasn't human, then it is beyond us to be like that.

 

[Livindesert]

Given that Adam existed without sin then sinlessness is not beyond humanity.

Good, I guess that means we don't need Christ then.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Well, Adam was sinless until he was tempted with the fruit.

If Adam wasn't human, then it is beyond us to be like that.

Do you think Adam obtained forgiveness?

 

[Dorothea]

I apologize for coming off so harsh. No excuses. After dealing with some of the deliberate false statements and accusations, it is sometimes hard to discern an honest question. But to help things, next time as one of us, instead of quoting a person who is on a mission to repeatedly misconstrue Calvinism.

Repentance is actually one of the proofs of salvation. Once we are regenerated (given a new heart), we can see our sin for what it is, and see God for whom He is, and we will want to repent of our sins. Someone who isn't regenerate not only doesn't see his sin for what it is, he doesn't even care to look.

And no, we don't know who is elect. That is why we are commanded to preach to all people. God not only fore-ordains the ends, but the means as well.

Apology accepted. Thank you for taking the time to explain. This was quite helpful, and I can understand it.

 

[Montalban]

Do you think Adam obtained forgiveness?

Do you think he lived without sin, or not?

He didn't obtain forgiveness because he'd done nothing that needed forgiving. That is, up until 'the Fall'.

It is only after 'the Fall' that he removed himself from God, and sin entered nature became tarnished by sin. Man moved from the garden of eden and we all suffer the consequences of that by being in an imperfect world.

However none of that takes from the fact that Adam and Eve were without sin - for a while.

You're more than welcome to show Adam as sinner prior to the temptation of the forbidden fruit

 

[chestertonrules]

No, the question was are you saying that sin isn't your fault? You said that people are sinners through no fault of their own. Just trying to clarify.

Is it possible for a man to live a sinless life without God's grace?

 

[BRISH]

wow

 

[Montalban]

wow

Indeed, wow.

Where do you find yourself, which category....?

That God created man, knowing that many would fail, or

That God created men to fail.

 

[chrisnu]

Indeed, wow.

Where do you find yourself, which category....?

That God created man, knowing that many would fail, or

That God created men to fail.

I think I know where these men fall:

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

1:18:1 - “Hence a distinction has been invented between doing and permitting because to many it seemed altogether inexplicable how Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases...”

3:23:6 - "“Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

3:23:7 - "Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."

"I say that it was by the ordination and will of God that Adam fell. God wanted man to fall. Man is blinded by the will and the command of God, and we refer the causes of our hardening to God. The highest or remote cause of hardening is the will of God, and it follows that the hidden counsel of God is the cause of hardening."

Martin Luther

"This mightily offends our rational nature, that God should, of His own mere unbiased will, leave some men to themselves, harden them, end then condemn them; but He has given abundant demonstration, and does continually, that this is really the case, namely, that the sole cause why some are saved and others perish proceeds from His willing the salvation of the former and the perdition of the latter..."

"It may seem absurd to human wisdom that God should harden, blind, and deliver up some men to a reprobate sense; that he should first deliver them over to evil, and then condemn them for that evil; but the believing spiritual man sees no absurdity in all this, knowing that God would be never a whit less good even though he should destroy all men."

Augustine

“It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will.”

So yes, God created men to fail, made sure that they could do nothing but fail, and then sends them to hell for it, because He likes it.

 

[Montalban]

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

3:23:7 - "Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."

"I say that it was by the ordination and will of God that Adam fell. God wanted man to fall. Man is blinded by the will and the command of God, and we refer the causes of our hardening to God. The highest or remote cause of hardening is the will of God, and it follows that the hidden counsel of God is the cause of hardening."

So yes, God created men to fail, made sure that they could do nothing but fail, and then sends them to hell for it, because He likes it.

Just like in Islam, it's the idea of a god who uses us as he wishes, not even necessarily saving those who are followers of his ordinances.

I thank you for those quotes. For about a week now I've been told that I've misrepresented Calvinism. Even when I quoted him.

 

[Hammster]

I think I know where these men fall:



John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion



1:18:1 - “Hence a distinction has been invented between doing and permitting because to many it seemed altogether inexplicable how Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases...”



3:23:6 - "“Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”



3:23:7 - "Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."



"I say that it was by the ordination and will of God that Adam fell. God wanted man to fall. Man is blinded by the will and the command of God, and we refer the causes of our hardening to God. The highest or remote cause of hardening is the will of God, and it follows that the hidden counsel of God is the cause of hardening."



Martin Luther



"This mightily offends our rational nature, that God should, of His own mere unbiased will, leave some men to themselves, harden them, end then condemn them; but He has given abundant demonstration, and does continually, that this is really the case, namely, that the sole cause why some are saved and others perish proceeds from His willing the salvation of the former and the perdition of the latter..."



"It may seem absurd to human wisdom that God should harden, blind, and deliver up some men to a reprobate sense; that he should first deliver them over to evil, and then condemn them for that evil; but the believing spiritual man sees no absurdity in all this, knowing that God would be never a whit less good even though he should destroy all men."



Augustine



“It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will.”



So yes, God created men to fail, made sure that they could do nothing but fail, and then sends them to hell for it, because He likes it.

Thanks for the quotes. Good stuff. Basically an assessment of Romans 9.

 

[Hammster]

Is it possible for a man to live a sinless life without God's grace?

No. But it is also impossible for man to live a sinless life with God's grace. Until we are glorified, that is.

 

[Montalban]

The apparent link to Romans 9 has already been dealt with. For anyone interested in re-visiting it, I cited an argument from this site...
Predestined for Free Will

It in turn looks at Biblical commentators, such as John Wesley.

But it's interesting to note this comment on the site "Norman Geisler wrote in When Critics Ask, “Regarding unclear passages, one should always use the clear passage of scripture to interpret unclear ones.”"

 

[Montalban]

Is it possible for a man to live a sinless life without God's grace?

Good question. As Adam lived a sinless life, then we must, according to the answer given, presume he was 'glorified' also (whatever that throwaway word means). That he fell away then afterwards means he was 'unglorified'??