Predestination

[Dorothea]

It is commanded by Christ to repent of our sins. You all act like we believe everybody just gets to live how they want, and then at the end, God lets us all know who was in. It is such a perverted view of the doctrines of Grace that you should all be ashamed of yourselves. There have been multiple posts on here explaining this, yet you all just keep coming up with this stupidity.

Please explain how repentance works then, in your belief system? I don't believe I saw it on this thread or maybe it is somewhere in here, but to make it easier, could you please explain? I'm sorry if you feel we are insulting you. I certainly am not trying to do so. What I am required to do as any Christian is, is to spread the Truth, through His Church, with the correct teachings. If we don't, that wouldn't be good, would it?

So, are you saying that you all know beforehand if you are one of the "elect" or one of the "condemned"?


I don't think it's stupidity. But thanks.

 

[Montalban]

That makes no sense.

Nor the selective addressing of argument.

The whole notion that we're commanded to do something and we do it is to me rather silly. If we've got no free will, then our obedience should be guaranteed.

 

[Hammster]

A question was raised "Do I sin?". Leaving aside for a moment that this is part of avoiding my proofs regarding Adam and Eve, we need to take a little look at what sin is.

Sin is the state I am in when I separate myself from God. It is an action that I do. Indeed I sin. I try not to sin. I try not to sin because I want to be with God. I am responsible. I am a person with choice. I often make the wrong choices. God still loves me.

For Calvnists, God is separting me from God and then punishing me for that! That's because they have no free-will, and God is not just or merciful, except arbitrarily.

No, the question was are you saying that sin isn't your fault? You said that people are sinners through no fault of their own. Just trying to clarify.

 

[Dorothea]

What did His death accomplish?

He saved us from death by trampling down death when he Resurrected, so that we may be able to spend eternity with Him in heaven.

 

[Montalban]

IN CALVINISM sinners are sinners through no fault of their own.

Yet some are punished others saved.

The whole notion of some Calvinists that they obey God because it is the right thing to do is another case of them trying to have it both ways.

If they are saying that they willingly choose to do right because it's right then they're accepting free-will and responsibility for their actions.

If they are saying that they're compelled to choose to do right, because God makes them then they're doing right because it's right is in fact they're being made to do right because God makes them.

 

[Hammster]

Please explain how repentance works then, in your belief system? I don't believe I saw it on this thread or maybe it is somewhere in here, but to make it easier, could you please explain? I'm sorry if you feel we are insulting you. I certainly am not trying to do so. What I am required to do as any Christian is, is to spread the Truth, through His Church, with the correct teachings. If we don't, that wouldn't be good, would it?

So, are you saying that you all know beforehand if you are one of the "elect" or one of the "condemned"?


I don't think it's stupidity. But thanks.

I apologize for coming off so harsh. No excuses. After dealing with some of the deliberate false statements and accusations, it is sometimes hard to discern an honest question. But to help things, next time as one of us, instead of quoting a person who is on a mission to repeatedly misconstrue Calvinism.

Repentance is actually one of the proofs of salvation. Once we are regenerated (given a new heart), we can see our sin for what it is, and see God for whom He is, and we will want to repent of our sins. Someone who isn't regenerate not only doesn't see his sin for what it is, he doesn't even care to look.

And no, we don't know who is elect. That is why we are commanded to preach to all people. God not only fore-ordains the ends, but the means as well.

 

[Montalban]

He saved us from death by trampling down death when he Resurrected, so that we may be able to spend eternity with Him in heaven.

Calvinists can't seem to make up their minds about the motives of their own actions. Are they really doing good, because it's the right thing to do, or are they being compelled to do right?

 

[Hammster]

He saved us from death by trampling down death when he Resurrected, so that we may be able to spend eternity with Him in heaven.

While I disagree with this, it is at least consistent with another EO person I used to engage with over at Soteriology. I am not saying that Christ didn't conquer death. But he atoned for our (the elect) sins. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What if we all start off by being normal people then gradually degenerate as inhibitions are consciously brought down. It's just a matter of loss of rewards then much like a parent does with a child. Some could lose so many rewards that they would have their name blotted out from the book of records.

This view is contrary to scripture.

Watchman Nee's book "the normal Christian life" is based on that analogy, The overcomers are those who actually stay normal thru it all
　
Ex 32:32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[Montalban]

"Repentence is a proof of salvation" does not answer what the point of repentence is.

Repentence is meaningless in Calvinism.

In Calvinism...

I'm compelled to do evil - I've no free will

I'm compelled to be made aware of that evil.

I'm made to feel bad (repentence) for having done evil, though it's not my fault.

And I may be condemned to hell, even though I feel repentence because nothing I do can alter whether I'm condmened to hell, or not.

What's the point in proving salvation to some? Does it alter salvation? No!

 

[Hammster]

IN CALVINISM sinners are sinners through no fault of their own.

Wrong. So the rest of your post is wrong as well. Either you are just unintelligent and can't grasp what we are saying, or you are deliberately twisting it so you can defeat it (which is the definition of a straw-man). Which is it?

This has been explained to you repeatedly. I am not saying that you should agree with it, but this constant mischaracterization is just crazy.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

"Repentence is a proof of salvation" does not answer what the point of repentence is.

Repentence is meaningless in Calvinism.

In Calvinism...

I'm compelled to do evil - I've no free will

I'm compelled to be made aware of that evil.

I'm made to feel bad (repentence) for having done evil, though it's not my fault.

And I may be condemned to hell, even though I feel repentence because nothing I do can alter whether I'm condmened to hell, or not.

What's the point in proving salvation to some? Does it alter salvation? No!

I think that even if a person looked at it that way and didn't take into account the reward system of God (which very few even care to look at) then they would be in for a big disappointment. Just about every promise in the bible comes with a condition.

 

[Montalban]

If sinners are sinners through their own fault then that is acceptence of free-will.

Welcome aboard.

 

[Hammster]

Watchman Nee's book "the normal Christian life" is based on that analogy, The overcomers are those who actually stay normal thru it all

No, the overcomers are the ones whom Christ has died for, and has rescued. He has promised to be with them till the end. "He who has begun a good work in you...."

 

[Montalban]

I think that even if a person looked at it that way and didn't take into account the reward system of God (which very few even care to look at) then they would be in for a big disappointment. Just about every promise in the bible comes with a condition.

Well I too look at doing good, because it is the right thing to do... not for the reward. However I accept that it is, in conjunction with God's grace, my choosing.

I believe we act in concert with God.

 

[Hammster]

If sinners are sinners through their own fault then that is acceptence of free-will.

Welcome aboard.

Welcome aboard to what? I have never denied that men have free will.

 

[Montalban]

If we have 'free-will', then what we do matters

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If sinners are sinners through their own fault then that is acceptence of free-will.

Welcome aboard.

Like I said earlier in this thread, Job was an example to satan that man would serve Him w/o what satan was accusing mankind of. That takes free will. otoh, God commisioned Cyrus before he was born.

 

[Montalban]

I take it the opposition wishes to continue to ignore that Adam lived (for a while) without sin.

 

[Hammster]

If we have 'free-will', then what we do matters

I agree.