Predestination

[Dorothea]

Where do you find that God is obligated to save anyone, or give them the "opportunity" to be saved, as you put it?

Why do you think Christ died on the Cross?

 

[Montalban]

No it wasn't. Your argument is that God does not offer grace to everyone. That is something else altogether.

Indeed

We're commanded to obey. That we fall short because we continually fail does not mean that we can't attempt to attain this.

Apparently Calvinists have just given up. His argument is like we're commanded "Thou shalt not murder", but, people murder. What's the point in the rule then?

Some are confused between 'ideals' and 'reality'. The idea is that we do obey. And, often we do. But we're imperfect - that's the reality. That we can't always obey - does that mean we just give up to sin?

There is no reason that God would give us commandments if we can't achieve them. This has yet to be explained by the opposition.

There's no reason that, upon giving us commandments that we can't achieve that God would punish us for not achieving them. This has yet to be explained by the opposition.

Adam and Eve both lived part of their life in a sinless condition. It is possible.

That they sinned, eventually doesn't detract from the fact that they had sinless existences. That's another confusion apparently for some.

 

[Dorothea]

In the mind of the early church, free will was always taught.

Augustine might be interpreted as denying this. Certainly Calvin took this novel approach when he devised a new way of looking at scripture, 1,500 years after the events.

There's a good list of early church sources on the matter here...
http://www.austingrad.edu/images/Resources/church/Free Will.pdf

If there wasn't free will, then why did Paul, John and the other Apostles go to the churches to correct some false teachings if people already were saved or not saved?

 

[Montalban]

I've asked why would God punish us for something we've not done.

The response is "God punishes us for our sin" which is not an answer to the question but repeating the problem.

Why would he punish us.

I can understand that choosing some is merciful, but it's not justice.

Look at the situation Calvinists have:

Person A: sins. No fault of their own. Powerless to do otherwise. God shows mercy anyway and saves them.

Person B: sins. No fault of their own. Powerless to do otherwise. God shows no mercy and does not save them.

How is that just? Why pick "A" over "B" when they're both EQUALLY BLAMELESS. For days now Calvinists have been missing this problem

Simply repeating "God is just for picking "A"" does not make for justice because there is no difference between "A" and "B" .

 

[Dorothea]

I've asked why would God punish us for something we've not done.

The response is "God punishes us for our sin" which is not an answer to the question but repeating the problem.

Why would he punish us.

I can understand that choosing some is merciful, but it's not justice.

Look at the situation Calvinists have:

Person A: sins. No fault of their own. Powerless to do otherwise. God shows mercy anyway and saves them.

Person B: sins. No fault of their own. Powerless to do otherwise. God shows no mercy and does not save them.

How is that just? Why pick "A" over "B" when they're both EQUALLY BLAMELESS. For days now Calvinists have been missing this problem

Simply repeating "God is just for picking "A"" does not make for justice because there is no difference between "A" and "B" .

Where does repentance fit into this theology?

 

[Montalban]

If there wasn't free will, then why did Paul, John and the other Apostles go to the churches to correct some false teachings if people already were saved or not saved?

Indeed. There'd be no point in fact even if Paul and John and the other Apostles addressed their teachings only to those who were saved, because it wouldn't make them any more saved!

In fact there'd be no point teaching at all, because those not saved, what would be the point of them changing their ways and turning to God?

I've pointed out that the whole Calvinistic position is self-annihilating. They unfortunately keep missing this point.

They argue that they're position is true. IF it were true, what's the point in arguing? It's not going to make me any more or less saved.

True, I might be deluded and living in a false hope. But, what would that matter either? If I were wrong it's not going to make me any more or less saved.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What if we all start off by being normal people then gradually degenerate as inhibitions are consciously brought down. It's just a matter of loss of rewards then much like a parent does with a child. Some could lose so many rewards that they would have their name blotted out from the book of records.

 

[Hammster]

I've asked why would God punish us for something we've not done.

Are you suggesting that people don't sin?

The response is "God punishes us for our sin" which is not an answer to the question but repeating the problem.

Why would he punish us.

Because of SIN.

I can understand that choosing some is merciful, but it's not justice.

Right. Mercy is the opposite if justice. Justice is what people in hell get, and we all deserve. Mercy is what some get, but none deserve.

Look at the situation Calvinists have:

Person A: sins. No fault of their own. Powerless to do otherwise. God shows mercy anyway and saves them.

Person B: sins. No fault of their own. Powerless to do otherwise. God shows no mercy and does not save them.

How is that just? Why pick "A" over "B" when they're both EQUALLY BLAMELESS. For days now Calvinists have been missing this problem

Simply repeating "God is just for picking "A"" does not make for justice because there is no difference between "A" and "B" .

I see your problem. You somehow (not from scripture, I assure you) think that people may sin, but it isn't their fault if they sin. It's no wonder it seems that we keep talking past each other. Your view is so unbiblical as to be heretical. Nobody is blameless. For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[Montalban]

Where does repentance fit into this theology?

Indeed! One poster did say that he did what was right, because it was right. But if he has no free-will, is his doing right an act of his, or being compelled to by God?

How would I be able to love someone if I were compelled to do so? That would be illusion. It would be a lie.

How is it just to punish ANY for doing wrong when they were not at fault. Those that believe that this is mercy should go back to the OT and read about the fall of Sodom - how God was questioned whether he would destroy the city if one good man was in it.

 

[Hammster]

What if we all start off by being normal people then gradually degenerate as inhibitions are consciously brought down. It's just a matter of loss of rewards then much like a parent does with a child. Some could lose so many rewards that they would have their name blotted out from the book of records.

This view is contrary to scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Why do you think Christ died on the Cross?

It certainly wasn't because He was obigated.

 

[Montalban]

Apparently mercy is where two people are sinners through no fault of their own, and only one of them is saved.

Justice apparently is punishing the other person, even though it was no fault of their own.

 

[Dorothea]

It certainly wasn't because He was obigated.

No, it was for the other reason you named and the fact that God loves us.

 

[Hammster]

Where does repentance fit into this theology?

It is commanded by Christ to repent of our sins. You all act like we believe everybody just gets to live how they want, and then at the end, God lets us all know who was in. It is such a perverted view of the doctrines of Grace that you should all be ashamed of yourselves. There have been multiple posts on here explaining this, yet you all just keep coming up with this stupidity.

 

[Dorothea]

Apparently mercy is where two people are sinners through no fault of their own, and only one of them is saved.

Justice apparently is punishing the other person, even though it was no fault of their own.

That makes no sense. :o

 

[Hammster]

Apparently mercy is where two people are sinners through no fault of their own, and only one of them is saved.

Justice apparently is punishing the other person, even though it was no fault of their own.

So are you saying that you sin, but it isn't your fault?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

This view is contrary to scripture.

It's actually not. I'll go look up some scripture

 

[Hammster]

No, it was for the other reason you named and the fact that God loves us.

What did His death accomplish?

 

[Montalban]

A question was raised "Do I sin?". Leaving aside for a moment that this is part of avoiding my proofs regarding Adam and Eve, we need to take a little look at what sin is.

Sin is the state I am in when I separate myself from God. It is an action that I do. Indeed I sin. I try not to sin. I try not to sin because I want to be with God. I am responsible. I am a person with choice. I often make the wrong choices. God still loves me.

For Calvnists, God is separting me from God and then punishing me for that! That's because they have no free-will, and God is not just or merciful, except arbitrarily.

 

[Hammster]

It's actually not. I'll go look up some scripture

Yeah. You do that.