Predestination

[chestertonrules]

He wants the wicked to repent because He hates wickedness.

So any command God gives we must have the ability to obey, correct?

Yes. All things are possible with God's grace.

Ask and you shall receive.

 

[Hammster]

Yes. All things are possible with God's grace.



Ask and you shall receive.

So you are perfect?

 

[Secundulus]

He wants the wicked to repent because He hates wickedness.

So any command God gives we must have the ability to obey, correct?

It does not seem to be within the nature of God to tell us to do something that he created us unable to do. If this were so, God would be guilty of deception.

However, we know that God cannot be guilty of deception because he told us that to be holy, one must obey his commandments.

One of these commandments is, thou shalt not lie.

Therefore, to lie is to be unholy.

God cannot be unholy. Therefore, God cannot lie.

Therefore, the notion that God created us unable to do that which he commanded us to do is false.

 

[Hammster]

It does not seem to be within the nature of God to tell us to do something that he created us unable to do. If this were so, God would be guilty of deception.



However, we know that God cannot be guilty of deception because he told us that to be holy, one must obey his commandments.



One of these commandments is, thou shalt not lie.



Therefore, to lie is to be unholy.



God cannot be unholy. Therefore, God cannot lie.



Therefore, the notion that God created us unable to do that which he commanded us to do is false.

So are you perfect and without sin?

 

[Secundulus]

So are you perfect and without sin?

Not at this moment.

 

[cygnusx1]

Not at this moment.

then bang goes your argument

also , it was not God's intention that man should by his own will and effort keep God's law , otherwise salvation would not be By Christ or by faith or by Grace , but by human effort works and merit.

did God intend Pharoah to let His people Israel go ? then why does God say to Moses I will harden Pharoah so that he will not listen ...........


why was the Law given ?

Apostolic answer ; to increase sin.

 

[Montalban]

then bang goes your argument

Not at all. Your rebuttal simply ignores historic evidence.

You simply think that because we have sin, we will always be like that.

That is not the normal state. Adam was without sin for a while. It is possible.

Eve lived without sin for a while. It is possible.

Mary was without sin. It is possible.

Jesus, both man and God was without sin. It is possible.

And, you've still not answered the problem - why would God be asking us to do something he knows we can't do?

Why is God so cruel as to punish people who've no choice in the matter?

 

[Montalban]

seldom seen a post with so many mistakes.

The Jews were 'preordained' to be the chosen people.

 

[AndOne]

Not at all. Your rebuttal simply ignores historic evidence.

You simply think that because we have sin, we will always be like that.

That is not the normal state.

I'm curious to know who from history was without sin? Other than Jesus that is - who is God. Where is this evidence you speak of?

 

[Hammster]

Not at all. Your rebuttal simply ignores historic evidence.

You simply think that because we have sin, we will always be like that.

That is not the normal state. Adam was without sin for a while. It is possible.

Eve lived without sin for a while. It is possible.

Mary was without sin. It is possible.

Jesus, both man and God was without sin. It is possible.

And, you've still not answered the problem - why would God be asking us to do something he knows we can't do?

Why is God so cruel as to punish people who've no choice in the matter?

If you would have answered the original question I asked differently, then do so. But cyg's response was to another member's answer to the question. And based on the answer, the response was appropriate.

 

[Montalban]

I'm curious to know who from history was without sin? Other than Jesus that is - who is God. Where is this evidence you speak of?

Read the post you responded too!

Why would God demand we do things he knows we can't do?

Why would God punish us for things not our fault?

 

[AndOne]

Read the post!

Why would God demand we do things he knows we can't do?

Why would God punish us for things not our fault?

So you don't know of anyone from history - other than Jesus - who was perfect. In other words you have no historical evidence to back your claim. Nice...

 

[Montalban]

Yes. All things are possible with God's grace.

Ask and you shall receive.

Indeed. Jesus says would the father give a son a scorpion? That's the problem with predeterminism - it makes God a liar, evil and a hypocrite. For in their idea of God he demands we do things we can't do. Then he punishes us for that. He demands we love everyone but doesn't himself.

One poster wrote
He wants the wicked to repent because He hates wickedness

I don't know if that's his summing up of what you are saying of what he believes himself.

If the later then he's swung over to our camp, because indeed God doesn't love wickedness, but what is 'wickedness' in predeterminism? It's not a matter of choice. What matter would it be that God wants us to repent, if he's already made people for hell?

 

[Montalban]

So you don't know of anyone from history - other than Jesus - who was perfect. In other words you have no historical evidence to back your claim. Nice...

You obviously didn't read the post I wrote. Despite me suggesting that you should - even though it should be apparent that you should read a post you're going to respond to

I take it you believe Adama and Eve aren't historical figures. Neither is Mary. Oh, well.

 

[Hammster]

Read the post you responded too!

Why would God demand we do things he knows we can't do?

Why would God punish us for things not our fault?

God punishes people for sin. That is what makes His choosing some so merciful.

 

[Hammster]

You obviously didn't read the post I wrote. Despite me suggesting that you should - even though it should be apparent that you should read a post you're going to respond to

I take it you believe Adama and Eve aren't historical figures. Neither is Mary. Oh, well.

Adam, Eve and Mary all sinned.

 

[Secundulus]

then bang goes your argument

also , it was not God's intention that man should by his own will and effort keep God's law , otherwise salvation would not be By Christ or by faith or by Grace , but by human effort works and merit.

did God intend Pharoah to let His people Israel go ? then why does God say to Moses I will harden Pharoah so that he will not listen ...........


why was the Law given ?

Apostolic answer ; to increase sin.

My argument is not gone because I did not argue that we are to act without God's Grace.

 

[Secundulus]

If you would have answered the original question I asked differently, then do so. But cyg's response was to another member's answer to the question. And based on the answer, the response was appropriate.

No it wasn't. Your argument is that God does not offer grace to everyone. That is something else altogether.

 

[Hammster]

No it wasn't. Your argument is that God does not offer grace to everyone. That is something else altogether.

The question was does God only command that which we must be able to obey? That is the premise of chestertonrules. But God does command things which we cannot obey. In fact, most of what is commanded cannot be kept. Read the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus gives a message on how to live, and then says to be perfect. You might be able to do some of the things, but you will always fall way short of perfection. Which is why Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, just as our sin is imputed to Him. We are sinners, and sinners by nature. We want nothing to do with God, if left alone. Does God still have the right to command us to repent? Sure He does. He is God. But will man repent? Not without a change in him. "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."

God doesn't need to save anyone. He can send us all to Hell, for that is what we all deserve. Even if He pleaded with us, it is still what we deserve. Praise God that in His mercy, He has chosen to save some. And by His grace, He accomplishes what He sets forth to do.

 

[Dorothea]

Salvation is not the end result.. It is just the beginning of our relationship with God as our Father.. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.. So delving into the scriptures we grow.

We became members of His Church (Body) through baptism, died and resurrected with him, and started our journey towards becoming like Him, we are being saved now as we run the race, and will be saved when we finish it.