Predestination

[chestertonrules]

God's love and mercy are denied by the gloomy Freewill POV. We should be eternally grateful that God is in charge of all things including his choice of his elect. Man-centered religion isn't able to see that, unfortunately, and still thinks that we save ourselves!

So you think that a God of love and mercy would create billions of people for the express purpose of eternal torture with no possibility of salvation?

Interesting.

 

[Christos Anesti]

And when things get going, they go to the old dead guys for support,

Old dead guys like Sts Matthew , Mark, Luke, John, James, Paul....?

 

[Christos Anesti]

They are Church Fathers too. If you quote them you have just quoted a Church Father

 

[Albion]

So you think that a God of love and mercy would create billions of people for the express purpose of eternal torture with no possibility of salvation?

No. Why do you believe that?

 

[laconicstudent]

No. Why do you believe that?

Well, if God doesn't elect everyone, then logically He created people specifically to go to Hell.

 

[Albion]

Why can't one use the theology and apologetics of the Church Fathers? Are they somehow inferior to modern evangelists?

Possibly he was thinking that it's strange that people who are always looking for something other than the Word of God will place unlimited trust in some musing from a churchman who lived hundreds of years after Christ.

 

[Albion]

Well, if God doesn't elect everyone, then logically He created people specifically to go to Hell.

Is that your own idea? If not where did you get it?

 

[laconicstudent]

Possibly he was thinking that it's strange that people who don't trust the Word of God will place unlimited trust in some musing from a churchman who lived hundreds of years after Christ.

Yeah. Calvinism is a little strange like that. The Scriptures clearly state that God wants everyone to be saved, which doesn't really jibe with the idea that God picked some elect and is content to let the rest go.

 

[laconicstudent]

Is that your own idea? If not where did you get it?

Simple logic. God is omnipotent, therefore He can save everyone. He doesn't do so, according to predestination. So God chooses which people will go to Hell when he creates them, by not electing them.

 

[Albion]

Simple logic. God is omnipotent, therefore He can save everyone. He doesn't do so, according to predestination. So God chooses which people will go to Hell when he creates them, by not electing them.

Here's real logic. All who sin are estranged from God and deserving of condemnation. But God chooses to save some of us anyway. Now, That's love! That's mercy!

And the manmade theology? Well, that says that everyone can try to save himself by doing whatever he thinks God would like, always hoping it's enough, but not knowing, always aware that a lifetime of such trying can be wiped out in a second if you die a moment after commiting a sin (which everyone is liable to do). That is a very negative, very gloomy, almost sadistic idea of what God is like, if you ask me.

Are you going to answer my question about where you picked up that rude and inaccurate idea of what Calvinism is (in the previous post)?

 

[laconicstudent]

Here's real logic. All who sin are estranged from God and deserving of condemnation. But God chooses to save some of us anyway. Now, That's love! That's mercy!

But God says He is willing that all be saved, not just some of us. So that really makes no sense.

And the manmade theology? Well, that says that everyone can try to save himself by doing whatever he thinks God would like, always hoping it's enough, but not knowing, always aware that a lifetime of such trying can be wiped out in a second if you die a moment after commiting a sin (which everyone is liable to do). That is a very negative, very gloomy, almost sadistic idea of what God is like, if you ask me.

Um. Ok. Good thing I don't think anyone was arguing that we need to work really hard for grace.

Are you going to answer my question about where you picked up that rude and inaccurate idea of what Calvinism is (in the previous post)?

I already said "Logic"

 

[Montalban]

Here's real logic. All who sin are estranged from God and deserving of condemnation. But God chooses to save some of us anyway. Now, That's love! That's mercy!

That's limited love and limited mercy

Funny, because God tells us to love everyone.

 

[Albion]

But God says He is willing that all be saved,

So you believe that he will save everyone, huh?

Not just some of us. So that really makes no sense.

Universalism then, is your idea of what God will do. Can you support that with some Bible verses that teach that everyone will be saved?

 

[laconicstudent]

So you believe that he will save everyone, huh?


Universalism then, is your idea of what God will do. Can you support that with some Bible verses that teach that everyone will be saved?

No, because I was speaking from what my perception of Predestination. I believe that God in His grace grants us a choice. It seems to me that if we were Predestined, and God made the choice for us, from what He says, we would have to all be predestined for salvation, not just some of us. Seems like a mess to me.

 

[Thekla]

Is there any value to living an ethical life if one is not elect ?

Why should one bother ?

 

[Montalban]

You forget "ultimate truth" everything is predestined by God. Temporal truth we have no idea what is going to happen next so we act as if we have free will.

That is what I already addressed; for you then there's no action of your own, therefore you're an automaton. Some have said that this is a 'straw-man', but if you don't have a real free will (even just a belief that we act with free-will doesn't help) then that's what we are; automatons - and as I noted then nothing matters.

Love wouldn't matter. It's not an act of giving, but one of being compelled into an action.

 

[Montalban]

Is there any value to living an ethical life if one is not elect ?

Why should one bother ?

That's what I've been raising. One poster said that he loved God for what he is, not for what he'll do for me - which is heading towards a straw-man.

However if we're compelled to choose God then his love for God isn't from him freely, but forced from him by God. It's not love. It's coercion.

But they keep wanting to have it both ways.

 

[chestertonrules]

Is there any value to living an ethical life if one is not elect ?

Why should one bother ?

Or even if you are elect!

 

[chestertonrules]

So you believe that he will save everyone, huh?


Universalism then, is your idea of what God will do. Can you support that with some Bible verses that teach that everyone will be saved?

If God denies the opportunity to repent to some, while granting it to others, then he is not just.

Do you believe God is just?

 

[Montalban]

So you believe that he will save everyone, huh?

I've already addressed this when you tried to labour that straw-man upon me.

I can will for someone to love me; that is it is something I wish. However if I really love them then I will respect their wish to reject me, if that is their wish.

God wants us all to want him. But forcing his will upon us is not the same as simply willing it to happen.

Universalism is near the other end from Calvinism. Both are against free-will.
In one, a few a saved, whether they like it or not. In the other all are saved whether they like it or not.