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Predestination

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CCWoody

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RapeOfAngels said:
An "open theist" will deny that God knows the future, because they deny the future exists.

What I am talking about is a little different. I don't deny the future exists, (from God's perspective). What I deny, is that the "future" exists before creation, (which seems an obvious truth).
This is the nature of of God's knowledge for which we are interested here. From the perspective of a creation which God is certain to create, we may speak of it in terms of its reality because it is certain to be a reality; it already has existence in the mind of God.

RapeOfAngels said:
No. Because I am not denying that God has a complete knowledge of the future. I am denying that God can have a knowledge of the future before it actually exists.
See above. I think this is only possible if we speak about a future that already exists in the mind of God.

Perhaps you need to be a little more wordy in your explaination because it does seem as if you are trying to conceal some things.
 
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Dmckay

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RapeOfAngels said:
No. Because I am not denying that God has a complete knowledge of the future. I am denying that God can have a knowledge of the future before it actually exists.

This isn't "open theism".
Did you actually think about this statement as you wrote it? You are displaying a pitiful knowledge about the essence and attributes of G-d.
 
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Trainwreck

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EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. [4] For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love [5] he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

But clearly most do not accept Jesus, hence even though God intended for us to be "adopted as his sons" we still have a choice to make ourselves. I'm perfectly willing to accept that God has a nice plan for everybody, but it's all up to us whether or not we choose to follow it. If God chose for us to reject him, then he would not be just in condemning us. Since we know that God is just, we know that the choices we make are indeed ours.
 
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salt_of_the_earth

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Gal328 said:
How many people here believe it and why.
I certinally DO NOT believe in predestination.

Well, I can accept single predestination, as in, God creating some individuals who he has already planned to go to heaven. However, I cannot accept double predestination in which God creates certain humans who it is already decided that they will go to hell.

This for me, contradicts God's love for his creation. Why would God create someone who he has already damned to hell? why would he create someone to suffer? this does not sound like the loving God that is spoken about in CHristian scripture.
 
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Dmckay

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salt_of_the_earth said:
I certinally DO NOT believe in predestination.

Well, I can accept single predestination, as in, God creating some individuals who he has already planned to go to heaven. However, I cannot accept double predestination in which God creates certain humans who it is already decided that they will go to hell.

This for me, contradicts God's love for his creation. Why would God create someone who he has already damned to hell? why would he create someone to suffer? this does not sound like the loving God that is spoken about in CHristian scripture.
Since you obviously haven't read all the posts up until now I suggest that you at least go back to page 2 and read post 14. There is NO contradiction.
 
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Erinwilcox

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salt_of_the_earth said:
I certinally DO NOT believe in predestination.

Well, I can accept single predestination, as in, God creating some individuals who he has already planned to go to heaven. However, I cannot accept double predestination in which God creates certain humans who it is already decided that they will go to hell.

This for me, contradicts God's love for his creation. Why would God create someone who he has already damned to hell? why would he create someone to suffer? this does not sound like the loving God that is spoken about in CHristian scripture.

So then, in your view of predestination, every single man, woman, boy, and girl ever to walk on the face of the earth has been predestinated? This would mean that the only people that God created were those whom He predestinated--in this view, everyone would be saved. But, the Bible clearly teaches us that this is not the case.

I think that some people just need to get out of "ME" syndrome and into "GOD and HIS GLORY" syndrome. This earth is not all about man and his needs or desires: it is about God and His honor and glory. The earth and her people are here for God and His will. God is the Potter and we are the clay. Cannot God do with His own as He likes/ Perhaps you don't understand that our JUST and RIGHTEOUS God is glorified by the damnation of sinners. His Justice, through this, is made known. So also is God glorified through the salvation of His elect. Also, the damntion of the wicked serves to show the Elect the greatness of the love and power and justice of God. So many people seem to think that God's plan of salvation is all about men and what it will do for men. GET THIS OUT OF YOUR MINDS!!!! Yes, salvation is good for men. Yes, salvation saves men. BUT!!! God's plan of salvation is all about GOD and HIS GLORY, HIS HONOR, HIS LOVE, HIS ATTRIBUTES, etc. This is why men are here on the earth: to glorify God either through their salvation or their damnation.
 
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frumanchu

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woobadooba said:
You didn't catch my clue. Sin existed before man was created. And His death would not have been in vain. His love for His created beings was brought into question. And to demonstrate that He is just, He went to the cross to die for sinners.

So...He went to the Cross because He had something to prove? :scratch:

Hence, He died to show that He is just, and to justify sinners.

The demonstration of His justice in the crucifixion is within the context of His redemptive plan. It is not merely to show that He is just but to satisfy His own justice for the sake of those He chose to show mercy upon. The atonement was substitutionary, not merely demonstrative.
 
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Erinwilcox

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CCWoody said:
You mean Meology vs Theology?
You always know what I mean and put it into better terms! :thumbsup: Yes, that is exactly what I mean. It is so prevalent for self-centered human beings to think that everything, including God and His will/plans, revolves around them.
 
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Reformationist

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woobadooba said:
Well, it would have been best to phrase it the same way that the Bible does to avoid confusion: "...who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Rom. 3:26

So only those who foster faith in Christ are justified.

This, of course, hurts your position of salvific predestination, since if what you are saying is true, they were justified without faith because God made them that way.

But the Bible is clear that they can't be justified without faith.

I do hope you can see the problem here.

The only problem I see is that, yet again, you show your ignorance of the position against which you rail. Romans 3:26 only supports the reformed view because it limits the purpose of Christ in the atonement, that of justifying only those who will believe. You seem to want to interpret the reformed position as one that endorses the claim that a person is justified before they have faith rather than what the reformed position actually states, which is that because we are people whose lives evolve in a linear fashion, there is a definitive time in our lives at which we are justified before God on the basis of the merits of Christ's atonement. While the elect were always the elect, even when they were no more than a part of God's creative plan, it should go without saying that the application of justifying merit cannot happen until they exist. Likewise, though the application of said merit happens during the course of a person's life, it relies on an event that may have happened outside of the bounderies of their lifespan.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Trainwreck said:
But clearly most do not accept Jesus, hence even though God intended for us to be "adopted as his sons" we still have a choice to make ourselves.

Please cite a passage that indicates there is a single person that was "adopted as His son" who did not ultimately embrace Him by faith unto salvation.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that God has a nice plan for everybody, but it's all up to us whether or not we choose to follow it.

And here you show the anthropocentric, and blatantly unbiblical, nature of your views. If God has a plan for anything to come to pass then, without fail, it comes to pass and no one, least of all pitiful, little, created you is going to stop it. THAT is the truth of a sovereign God.

If God chose for us to reject him, then he would not be just in condemning us.

Utter nonsense and a point explicitly refuted by the Gospel:

Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

As you can see here, this is the exact same point you make, and it is summarily refuted by Paul:

Romans 9:20,21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

I encourage you to read these verses in context. You will see that they address the very objection you raise. The bottom line is that man is a volitional creature and is held accountable for his actions because he is the one who is choosing to act in that fashion. It sounds as if you want to hold God accountable for the freely willed actions of man simply because man is created with an inherent inclination to rebel. If so, all you do is validate God's decree to establish Adam as your federal representative for wealth or ruin. In denying God's right to reign supreme in your life, you merely repeat the very sin that brought about the Fall of man.

Since we know that God is just, we know that the choices we make are indeed ours.

No one said your choices aren't yours. In fact, it is that they are the product of your own volition that makes you responsible for them.

God bless
 
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Trainwreck

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No one said your choices aren't yours. In fact, it is that they are the product of your own volition that makes you responsible for them.

That's exactly what the point of my post was. We are separated from God (ie hell) if we do not choose to follow him. The point is that it is our choice.
 
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RapeOfAngels

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CCWoody said:
From the perspective of a creation which God is certain to create, we may speak of it in terms of its reality because it is certain to be a reality; it already has existence in the mind of God.


One point I would make, is that we aren't in my view talking about the creative activity purely of God. With libertarian free will, power is delegated to the creature.

A person has the ability to make X happen, or to make Y happen etc. etc. (Obviously with God's cooperation, we have no power except it is delegated to us.)

When you talk about creation already existing in God's mind, I think that would be perfectly possible if everything were determined by God. But it looks very questionable that God could have "in mind", before creation, the free choice of creatures who aren't yet in existence. The decisions haven't been taken.

If God already has them "in mind" before creation, then it looks as if God is taking those decisions, and that isn't free will.
 
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RapeOfAngels

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Reformationist said:
And here you show the anthropocentric, and blatantly unbiblical, nature of your views. If God has a plan for anything to come to pass then, without fail, it comes to pass and no one, least of all pitiful, little, created you is going to stop it. THAT is the truth of a sovereign God.


But if God's plan includes the free will of man being involved in salvation, then without fail, it comes to pass. THAT is the truth of a sovereign God.

You may disagree that God has actually done this, fine. But you have no right to tell a sovereign God that he isn't allowed to do this.
 
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RapeOfAngels

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Reformationist said:
Utter nonsense and a point explicitly refuted by the Gospel:

Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

As you can see here, this is the exact same point you make, and it is summarily refuted by Paul:


I am not sure what Paul is saying in Romans 9. However, I find it difficult to believe he is saying what you claim, because it would be a blatant logical fallacy. (Weak analogy, for making a comparison with something lifeless.) I don't think that God could make an error like that.
 
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Brazell

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In so far as man was created in God's image, and as God has will, it would suggest that man, therefore, has his own will (though, man in his essence is a being of accidents, causes, and so on, and so does not take every characteristic of God--obviously).

I don't believe in Predestination because it seems to be a challenge to man as a willed creature; though I may just be misunderstanding what some may mean when they say "predestination." It's an error in logic, I believe, that God "predestines" anything... though I don't want to be confused as saying that God does not have a plan... I just have a hard time believing that everything that I may do has already been decided, it would seem to suggest that God has already chosen who will be saved and who will perish, without giving them any sort of choice.
 
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holeinone

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Brazell said:
In so far as man was created in God's image, and as God has will, it would suggest that man, therefore, has his own will (though, man in his essence is a being of accidents, causes, and so on, and so does not take every characteristic of God--obviously).

I don't believe in Predestination because it seems to be a challenge to man as a willed creature; though I may just be misunderstanding what some may mean when they say "predestination." It's an error in logic, I believe, that God "predestines" anything... though I don't want to be confused as saying that God does not have a plan... I just have a hard time believing that everything that I may do has already been decided, it would seem to suggest that God has already chosen who will be saved and who will perish, without giving them any sort of choice.
Does God have the same free will that you attribute to man?
 
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