Predestination??

[woobadooba]

Because there are two distinct types of Calling , the outer and the inner .

The Gospel call is both a call upon sinners to repent , and a further calling upon the elect to realise their Lord and Saviour .

Many were called but few chosen ............ this is merely the outer call .

now compair Romans 8 for the inner call :



28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice that all those "called" in Romans 8 are not only justified but also glorified .

1. What do you mean by "realise their Lord and Savior"?

2. Does being justified indefinitely equal being saved?

 

[cygnusx1]

1. What do you mean by "realise their Lord and Savior"?

I mean come to understand that a Covenant God has chosen them and calls them home !

Romans 5:8-10 (KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2. Does being justified indefinitely equal being saved?

this chain is unbreakable .

Romans 8

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[woobadooba]

I mean come to understand that a Covenant God has chosen them and calls them home !

But this is what you said initially:

The Gospel call is both a call upon sinners to repent , and a further calling upon the elect to realise their Lord and Saviour .

1. Weren't the elect sinners at one point; and are they not still sinful?
2. Why would God call sinners who are not the elect to repent if He made them for damnation?

this chain is unbreakable .

Romans 8

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

But this does not answer my question. What does it mean to be justified; and is a person who is justified indefinitely saved?

Also, what does it mean to be saved?

 

[cygnusx1]

1. Weren't the elect sinners at one point; and are they not still sinful?

yes .......... the difference is the elect whom God is gathering are always the elect , and are viewed as the children of God even prior to regeneration!

2. Why would God call sinners who are not the elect to repent if He made them for damnation?

at least two reasons .
1. To display Divine Love ; a genuine offer of salvation is sent out .............. just because all men love sin and prefer darkness (John 3) doesn't mean God cannot offer them salvation , God is love!
2. To expose the heart of Adam's fallen race as thoroughly corrupt , not only will they sin against Law , but they will sin against Love , only grace frees a soul from this dungeon and chains.

But this does not answer my question. What does it mean to be justified;

To be acceptable in God's sight , to be aquitted , made legally acceptable.

and is a person who is justified indefinitely saved?

yes they shall be glorified if they have been justified.

 

[woobadooba]

yes .......... the difference is the elect whom God is gathering are always the elect , and are viewed as the children of God even prior to regeneration!

But why are they the elect?

at least two reasons .
1. To display Divine Love ; a genuine offer of salvation is sent out .............. just because all men love sin and prefer darkness (John 3) doesn't mean God cannot offer them salvation , God is love!

But if God is love, why then would He create some people for damnation?

Don't you think that is cruel?

2. To expose the heart of Adam's fallen race as thoroughly corrupt , not only will they sin against Law , but they will sin against Love , only grace frees a soul from this dungeon and chains.

But what good would it do them to expose their hearts if there is no hope that their hearts could ever be changed, since God predestined them for damnation?

To be acceptable in God's sight , to be aquitted , made legally acceptable.

Ok, but weren't they always acceptable in God's sight? I mean, if God made them for salvation, then they were always justified. So what sense then was there in Jesus going to the cross to make acceptable people that were already accepted?

You still didn't answer my question about what it means to be saved. So what does it mean?

 

[heymikey80]

Interesting. You say your damnation is of yourselves, yet your decision chooses the grace of God to your salvation.

Your decision is responsible for your damnation. How is it then not responsible for your salvation?

One's decision is responsible for one's salvation, but only by God's grace. God initiates and enables, man responds.

My goodness, you'd think you people had never heard this before! Tell me you have, please.

I'm concerned now. Where are the Arminians here? This is Arminianism 101, I'm giving it a shot here, and I don't even hold to it! LOL

Of course I've heard it before, who hasn't? It's just not made much sense before, I was hoping you'd clarify.

A human being responds. Isn't the human being thus responsible for that response?

You're saying God's responsible for graciously giving me a chance to accept Him. That's fine. But my acceptance of Him is then my responsibility -- so -- -- how do I get less responsibility for my accepting Him than for my rejecting Him? As you said, salvation's by God's grace alone, or rejection's my responsibility. Um, which is it: where's my responsibility go in salvation? You said, "Alone". But it doesn't seem alone. My responsibility seems just as important in salvation as in rejection.

 

[cygnusx1]

But why are they the elect?

The clearest answer is in 1 Corinthians , God is working to a purpose !

But if God is love, why then would He create some people for damnation?

That is lopsided ............ it is a truth but not THE total truth ........ all things are made for God's Glory , to say men are made to be damned is like saying I go to work ........ because my legs take me there.

Don't you think that is cruel?

mmmmmmmmm
whenever the subject of hell comes up , it is difficult whatever one's views to not dislike it , but it doesn't mean cruelty is the only option.

But what good would it do them to expose their hearts if there is no hope that their hearts could ever be changed, since God predestined them for damnation?

If God predestines anyone to damnation it is because He has the right and because none deserve saving ... also no reprobate may hide behind a Divine decree , it is hidden!





I have to get some sleep now

 

[woobadooba]

The clearest answer is in 1 Corinthians , God is working to a purpose !

No, this doesn't answer the question. Actually, if God predestined some to salvation and others to damnation, then don't we all have a purpose?

I will ask the question in a different way. Why would God predestine some for salvation and others for damnation? In other words, if man's choice doesn't matter, why not save everyone? In fact, why would God even allow sin to take place to begin with, if humankind didn't have a choice in the matter of being saved or lost?

I really want answers for EACH one of these questions.

If you know your doctrine well, you should be able to answer them.

That is lopsided ............ it is a truth but not THE total truth ........ all things are made for God's Glory , to say men are made to be damned is like saying I go to work ........ because my legs take me there.

But this is what you are saying, is it not? If God only made some to be elect, where does that leave the rest?

whenever the subject of hell comes up , it is difficult whatever one's views to not dislike it , but it doesn't mean cruelty is the only option.

But, in terms of salvation, without free-will how could there be any options at all?

If God predestines anyone to damnation it is because He has the right and because none deserve saving ... also no reprobate may hide behind a Divine decree , it is hidden!

But this doesn't answer the question of why a just and loving God would exercise His right in creating some people for damnation.


Would you do this if you were God?

I have to get some sleep now

Ok, but I would appreciate it if you would answer the questions that I had asked you in the other posts such as:

1. If a person is justified does that mean he is indefinitely saved?
2. What does it mean to be saved?


Oh, and make sure you answer the other questions I asked you in this post

 

[mlqurgw]

No, this doesn't answer the question. Actually, if God predestined some to salvation and others to damnation, then don't we all have a purpose?

I will ask the question in a different way. Why would God predestine some for salvation and others for damnation? In other words, if man's choice doesn't matter, why not save everyone? In fact, why would God even allow sin to take place to begin with, if humankind didn't have a choice in the matter of being saved or lost?

I really want answers for EACH one of these questions.

If you know your doctrine well, you should be able to answer them.




But this is what you are saying, is it not? If God only made some to be elect, where does that leave the rest?





But, in terms of salvation, without free-will how could there be any options at all?





But this doesn't answer the question of why a just and loving God would exercise His right in creating some people for damnation.


Would you do this if you were God?





Ok, but I would appreciate it if you would answer the questions that I had asked you in the other posts such as:

1. If a person is justified does that mean he is indefinitely saved?
2. What does it mean to be saved?


Oh, and make sure you answer the other questions I asked you in this post

For the sake of better understanding could you please define what you mean by free-wiil?

 

[woobadooba]

For the sake of better understanding could you please define what you mean by free-wiil?

The ability to exercise the psyche of the mind to make a choice of consequence.

 

[mlqurgw]

The ability to exercise the psyche of the mind to make a choice of consequence.

I do not know of any Calvinist who would deny such a defintion.

 

[woobadooba]

I do not know of any Calvinist who would deny such a defintion.

Ok, well why then would they deny that we don't have a choice in the matter of our salvation?

 

[MbiaJc]

It really has nothing to do with choice and therefore freewill on our part.

QUOTE]

God determined before the foundation of the world, that He would give the ones that believed on His Son Jesus Christ, the power to become the sons of God.

So God's predestination and man's choice and free will, both play a part. God doesn't won't robots, He wonts men that freely choose Him. He has already had robots, but one third of them rebelled against Him.

 

[RoofRabbit]

While we see things in the timeline we are in, God sees things as things that already happened long ago. Think of Predestination as like watching a movie for the second time, you already know what happens so when you see it again, the actors all do exactly as they have already done so the ending is exactly the same. Following Christ is a choice but God has already seen what your final choice will be, just like a movie rerun.

 

[mlqurgw]

Ok, well why then would they deny that we don't have a choice in the matter of our salvation?

We don't deny that man makes a choice but that we are unable to make that choice until God, by an act of sovereign grace in regeneration, gives us the will to do so.

 

[woobadooba]

We don't deny that man makes a choice but that we are unable to make that choice until God, by an act of sovereign grace in regeneration, gives us the will to do so.

So how then do you explain the fall of Lucifer, or Adam? They were not unregenerate when they sinned.

 

[mlqurgw]

So how then do you explain the fall of Lucifer, or Adam? They were not unregenerate when they sinned.

They did what they wanted to exactly according to the purpose and plan of God. Just as the Jews and Romans did when they crucified Christ.

 

[woobadooba]

They did what they wanted to exactly according to the purpose and plan of God. Just as the Jews and Romans did when they crucified Christ.

So what are you saying here, that it was God's purpose for Lucifer to fall into sin, and for Adam to disobey Him?

Why would God command anyone to obey Him if it was His purpose that they should disobey Him?

Strange doctrine!

 

[ContraMundum]

Neither one! If we believe in Jesus Christ or even in His name, we are given power to become regenerated.

It is His faith not ours that we believe in, which when we do God gives us power to become sons of God.

Talk about confusion ooooooooooooh my!

Wow...this appears so off topic I can't even relate to it.

We believe in Christ's faith? Chapter and verse, please. I thought we believed in Christ, by faith. In fact, so did everyone else.

 

[ContraMundum]

This is so funny.....I'm sitting here laughing as I type. Not at you, my brother, but just at the whole thread, really. We're all like a bunch of computers with 1 gig hard drives trying to cram 80 gig of information into ourselves.

Of course I've heard it before, who hasn't? It's just not made much sense before, I was hoping you'd clarify.

Hey, I'll try, but I'm only human.

A human being responds. Isn't the human being thus responsible for that response?

Sure, why not. But until God intevened, the human being was unable to respond.

You're saying God's responsible for graciously giving me a chance to accept Him. That's fine. But my acceptance of Him is then my responsibility -- so -- -- how do I get less responsibility for my accepting Him than for my rejecting Him?

The typcial answer I guess an Arminian would give would be this: God has decreed that you will decide for yourself, and He has given you (graciously, undeserved and unmerited) the ability and opportunity to choose. So, I guess it's always His grace, initiative and design for us, but we are decreed to choose for ourselves whether or not to accept it.

Another school of thought might put it this way: Maybe you don't need to know the answer to this. Maybe it's in the unsearchable mind of God.

...and then, to confuse you (us all) further, maybe God's grace is resistable at times (Lydia) and irresistable at times (Saul), according to His Sovereign will and plan. Thus the way he dealt with you may not be the way he dealt with Saul- and who are we to bicker with God? Potter, clay, etc.

As you said, salvation's by God's grace alone, or rejection's my responsibility. Um, which is it: where's my responsibility go in salvation? You said, "Alone". But it doesn't seem alone. My responsibility seems just as important in salvation as in rejection.

We get back to the old "two pictures of salvation" analogy, don't we?

Picture one says there is a boat, and you have fallen over the side, drowning. Someone on the boat throws you a life-ring, and you swim to get it, hold on and don't let go until you're safe. Without the life-ring being thrown to you, you were most certainly going to drown.

Picture two says that there is a cliff, and you have fallen to the bottom, lying dead as a plank. God must bring you to life, but it is up to you to climb back up. He will help. (There could be a modified Calvinist version of this one two, for example, you don't need to climb or something. I don't know.)

Either picture, one only a tiny bit more more synergistic than the other, still relies on God to do the saving.