Predestination??

[woobadooba]

Human reason is the problem. As Luther said, it's a harlot. All it will do is find a way to back up your own preconceptions in tough, mysterious matters of faith, and by the attempt to shatter the mystery it will invent a new and strange doctrine if you are not careful.

True, and that is why we must reason together with God.

Is it reasonable that a loving God would make some to be saved, while making others to be damned?

It isn't reasonable in the least bit.

 

[woobadooba]

Wow. That helps.



Both of which I gladly employ to support my position. Any other ideas?

Perhaps you could tell me if it was God's will for Lucifer to fall.

 

[kw5kw]

To say that there is an absolute select number of people that God predestined to be saved and go to heaven before time even began is extremely Calvinistic. L in the TULIP stands for Limited Atonement. I do believe that we all make our own choices but that God knows what choice that we are going to make so in essence he knows who is going to heaven and who is going to become saved or not and from that one could derive that God chose believers.

Calvin didn't write what we are calling “T.U.L.I.P.”! The Synod of Dort[1] came up with T.U.L.I.P. long after Calvin's death to defend against a heretical teaching.While T.U.L.I.P. is based in part on John Calvin’s “The Institutes of the Christian Religion”, it is not a part of John Calvin’s basic theology. T.U.L.I.P. is also based on the works of Theodore Beza 1519-1605. and the Belgic Confession. The Belgic Confession is the oldest of the doctrinal standards of the Christian Reformed Church is the Confession of Faith, popularly known as the Belgic Confession, following the seventeenth-century Latin designation "Confessio Belgica."



Now shall we look a bit further at the Biblical doctrine of Predestination? First shall we look at the Epistle to the Ephesians.



The Epistle is divided into two parts -

I. The doctrinal part of Ephesians is in chapters 1~3; and

II. The practical part a.k.a. the application. of Ephesians is found in chapters 4~6.

I. The doctrinal part comprises the following topics:

1. Praise to God for the Revelation of his eternal counsels of recovering mercy, Ephesians i:3-14.

2. a prayer of the apostle, expressing his earnest desire that the Ephesians might avail themselves fully of all the advantages of this eternal purpose of mercy, Ephesians i:15-23.

3. the doctrine of the native character of man, as being dead in sins, illustrated by the past lives of the Ephesians, Ephesians ii:1-3.

4. the doctrine of regeneration by the grace of God, and the advantages of it, Ephesians ii:5-7.

5. the doctrine of salvation by grace alone without respect to our own works, Ephesians ii:8-9,

6. The privilege of being thus admitted to the fellowship of the saints, Ephesians ii:11-22,

7. A full statement of the doctrine that God meant to admit the Gentiles to the privileges of his people, and to break down the barriers between the Gentiles and the Jews, Ephesians iii:1-12.

8. the apostle prays earnestly that they might avail themselves fully of this doctrine, and be able to appreciate fully the advantages which it was intended to confer; and with this prayer he closes the doctrinal part of the Epistle, Ephesians iii:13-21.

II. The practical part of the Epistle embraces the following topics, namely:

1. Exhortation to unity, drawn from the consideration that there was one God, one faith, etc., Ephesians iv:1-16.

2. an exhortation to a holy life “in general,” from the fact that they differed from other Gentiles, Ephesians iv:17-24.

3. exhortation to exhibit “particular” virtues - “specifying” what was required by their religion, and what they should avoid - particularly to avoid the vices of anger, lying, licentiousness, and intemperance, Ephesians iv:25-32; Ephesians v:1-20.

4. the duties of husbands and wives, Ephesians v:21-33.

5. the duties of parents and children, Ephesians vi:1-3.

6. the duties of masters and servants, Ephesians vi:4-9.

7. an exhortation to fidelity in the Christian warfare, Ephesians vi:10-20.

8. Conclusion of the letter, Ephesians vi:21-24.



We will, however, concern ourselves only with the first fourteen verses of the first chapter of Ephesians today.



Here we find:



1. The salutation; verses.1~2.

2. The doctrine of predestination and it’s bearing and design; verses. 3~14.

a. It is the foundation of praise to God, and is a source of gratitude; verse 3.

b. Christians have been chosen before the foundation of the world; verse 4.

c. That these Christians are to be holy and blameless; verse 4.

d. That they were to be predestined to be the children of God; verse 5.

e. The cause of this was the good pleasure of God, or he did it according to the purpose of His will; verse 5.

f. The object of this was to His own glory; verse 6.

3. The benefits of the plan of predestination to those who are thus chosen; verses 7~14.

a. They have redemption and the forgiveness of sin; verses 7~8.

b. They are made acquainted with the mystery of the divine will; verses 9~10.

c. That they have obtained an inheritance in Christ; verse 11.

d. The object of this was the praise to the glory of God; verse 12.

e. As the result of this, or in the execution of this purpose, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit; verses 13~14.



I hope this outline will help to make some sense of the fact that the doctrine is not Calvinistic, per se, but is purely Biblical in origin.


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_dort The Synod of Dort consisted of the following members: From England: George Carleton 1559-1628., Joseph Hall 1574-1657., Thomas Goad 1576-1638., John Davenant 1576-1641. and Lancelot Andrewes 1555-1626.. From Scotland: Walter Balcanqual 1586-1645., Samuël Ward died in 1643., Guiliemus Amesius 1576-1633.. From Heidelberg: Abraham Scultetus 1566-1624., Paul Tossanus 1572-1634., Hendrik Alting 1583-1644.. From Hessen: Georg Cruciger 1575-1637., Paul Stein 1585-1643., Rudolphus Gloclenius 1547-1628., Daniel Anglocrator 1569-1635.. From Switzerland: Johann Jakob Breitinger 1575-1645., Wolfgang Mayer 1577-1653., Sebastian Beck 1583-1654., Mark Rütimeyer 1580-1647., Hans Conrad Koch 1564-1643.. From Geneva: Jean Diodati 1576-1649., Theodore Trochin 1582-1657.. From Bremen: Ludwig Crocius 1586-1653., Matthiuas Martinius 1572-1630., Heinrich Isselburg 1577-1628.. From Nassau-Wetteravië: Johann Heinrich Alsted 1588-1638., John Bisterfeld died in 1619., Georg Fabricius. From Emden: Ritzius Lucas Grimersheim 1568-1631., Daniël Bernard Eilshemius 1555-1622.. From France: None because the French government prohibited their attendance. A set of empty chairs was set up in the assembly in honor of the absent French Huguenots.

 

[mlqurgw]

Calvin didn't write what we are calling “T.U.L.I.P.”! The Synod of Dort[1] came up with T.U.L.I.P. long after Calvin's death to defend against a heretical teaching.While T.U.L.I.P. is based in part on John Calvin’s “The Institutes of the Christian Religion”, it is not a part of John Calvin’s basic theology. T.U.L.I.P. is also based on the works of Theodore Beza 1519-1605. and the Belgic Confession. The Belgic Confession is the oldest of the doctrinal standards of the Christian Reformed Church is the Confession of Faith, popularly known as the Belgic Confession, following the seventeenth-century Latin designation "Confessio Belgica."



Now shall we look a bit further at the Biblical doctrine of Predestination? First shall we look at the Epistle to the Ephesians.



The Epistle is divided into two parts -

I. The doctrinal part of Ephesians is in chapters 1~3; and

II. The practical part a.k.a. the application. of Ephesians is found in chapters 4~6.

I. The doctrinal part comprises the following topics:

1. Praise to God for the Revelation of his eternal counsels of recovering mercy, Ephesians i:3-14.

2. a prayer of the apostle, expressing his earnest desire that the Ephesians might avail themselves fully of all the advantages of this eternal purpose of mercy, Ephesians i:15-23.

3. the doctrine of the native character of man, as being dead in sins, illustrated by the past lives of the Ephesians, Ephesians ii:1-3.

4. the doctrine of regeneration by the grace of God, and the advantages of it, Ephesians ii:5-7.

5. the doctrine of salvation by grace alone without respect to our own works, Ephesians ii:8-9,

6. The privilege of being thus admitted to the fellowship of the saints, Ephesians ii:11-22,

7. A full statement of the doctrine that God meant to admit the Gentiles to the privileges of his people, and to break down the barriers between the Gentiles and the Jews, Ephesians iii:1-12.

8. the apostle prays earnestly that they might avail themselves fully of this doctrine, and be able to appreciate fully the advantages which it was intended to confer; and with this prayer he closes the doctrinal part of the Epistle, Ephesians iii:13-21.

II. The practical part of the Epistle embraces the following topics, namely:

1. Exhortation to unity, drawn from the consideration that there was one God, one faith, etc., Ephesians iv:1-16.

2. an exhortation to a holy life “in general,” from the fact that they differed from other Gentiles, Ephesians iv:17-24.

3. exhortation to exhibit “particular” virtues - “specifying” what was required by their religion, and what they should avoid - particularly to avoid the vices of anger, lying, licentiousness, and intemperance, Ephesians iv:25-32; Ephesians v:1-20.

4. the duties of husbands and wives, Ephesians v:21-33.

5. the duties of parents and children, Ephesians vi:1-3.

6. the duties of masters and servants, Ephesians vi:4-9.

7. an exhortation to fidelity in the Christian warfare, Ephesians vi:10-20.

8. Conclusion of the letter, Ephesians vi:21-24.



We will, however, concern ourselves only with the first fourteen verses of the first chapter of Ephesians today.



Here we find:



1. The salutation; verses.1~2.

2. The doctrine of predestination and it’s bearing and design; verses. 3~14.

a. It is the foundation of praise to God, and is a source of gratitude; verse 3.

b. Christians have been chosen before the foundation of the world; verse 4.

c. That these Christians are to be holy and blameless; verse 4.

d. That they were to be predestined to be the children of God; verse 5.

e. The cause of this was the good pleasure of God, or he did it according to the purpose of His will; verse 5.

f. The object of this was to His own glory; verse 6.

3. The benefits of the plan of predestination to those who are thus chosen; verses 7~14.

a. They have redemption and the forgiveness of sin; verses 7~8.

b. They are made acquainted with the mystery of the divine will; verses 9~10.

c. That they have obtained an inheritance in Christ; verse 11.

d. The object of this was the praise to the glory of God; verse 12.

e. As the result of this, or in the execution of this purpose, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit; verses 13~14.



I hope this outline will help to make some sense of the fact that the doctrine is not Calvinistic, per se, but is purely Biblical in origin.


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort: The Synod of Dort consisted of the following members: From England: George Carleton 1559-1628., Joseph Hall 1574-1657., Thomas Goad 1576-1638., John Davenant 1576-1641. and Lancelot Andrewes 1555-1626.. From Scotland: Walter Balcanqual 1586-1645., Samuël Ward died in 1643., Guiliemus Amesius 1576-1633.. From Heidelberg: Abraham Scultetus 1566-1624., Paul Tossanus 1572-1634., Hendrik Alting 1583-1644.. From Hessen: Georg Cruciger 1575-1637., Paul Stein 1585-1643., Rudolphus Gloclenius 1547-1628., Daniel Anglocrator 1569-1635.. From Switzerland: Johann Jakob Breitinger 1575-1645., Wolfgang Mayer 1577-1653., Sebastian Beck 1583-1654., Mark Rütimeyer 1580-1647., Hans Conrad Koch 1564-1643.. From Geneva: Jean Diodati 1576-1649., Theodore Trochin 1582-1657.. From Bremen: Ludwig Crocius 1586-1653., Matthiuas Martinius 1572-1630., Heinrich Isselburg 1577-1628.. From Nassau-Wetteravië: Johann Heinrich Alsted 1588-1638., John Bisterfeld died in 1619., Georg Fabricius. From Emden: Ritzius Lucas Grimersheim 1568-1631., Daniël Bernard Eilshemius 1555-1622.. From France: None because the French government prohibited their attendance. A set of empty chairs was set up in the assembly in honor of the absent French Huguenots.

Excellant! I would only add one thing; the pracical part is always in the context of the Gospel. They are not mere practical teachings but how the Gospel is to affect our lives. It makes clear that the Gospel, the doctrines of Christ, affect every part of us and relate to everything.

 

[kw5kw]

I Take scripture at Face value , I don't play around with Greek ......... I have seen not weeks but Months of dancing around with Greek scholars and First aorist passives....... all arriving nowhere.... then there is textual criticism , yes , a long debate about which text is better , more accurate and so on can so easily not merely side track debates , but is certain to be inconclusive ......... it just is not a sport I am into....., Thank God.

Greetings to cygnusx1!

May I beg to disagree with you.

For instance Ephesians i.1: (KJV) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:



Shall I pick only one word here; ‘faithful.’



What do you think ‘faithful’ means? Does it mean:

Faithful

FA'ITHFUL, a.

1. Firm in adherence to the truth and to the duties of religion.

Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Rev 2.

2. Firmly adhering to duty; of true fidelity; loyal; true to allegiance; as a faithful subject.

3. constant in the performance of duties or services; exact in attending to commands; as a faithful servant.

4. Observant of compact, treaties, contracts, vows or other engagements; true to one's word. A government should be faithful to its treaties; individuals, to their word.

5. True; exact; in conformity to the letter and spirit; as a faithful execution of a will.

6. True to the marriage covenant; as a faithful wife or husband.

7. Conformable to truth; as a faithful narrative or representation.

8. Constant; not fickle; as a faithful lover or friend.

9. True; worthy of belief. 2 Tim 2.

Greek, as in all languages that have several words that mean the same thing in English. The English word ‘love’ is one of those words.

English love can mean as I love my dog.

Or, As I love my wife. –eros.

Or, as I love my brother/sister. –philos.

Or, as I love my mother/father. – agape.

You can even love as in covet –viz. money, power, possessions.



In English we have to, too, two. All are pronounced the same –viz. T `0, but the meaning of all three are very different and need not be confused with each other!



Well, in Greek you have more than one word that can be translated into English as ‘faithful.’ Allow me to go into some real detail.



1. In Ephesians i:1 we find ‘faithful,’ being translated as such in the KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV and NLT. This word is pistois {pis-toys’} an adjective and of a masculine gender. It has the Strong’s and NASB# 4103, the GK # 4412. It means: “faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing. The word pistois means a person who has placed his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The practical application is: The faithful person is a person who has looked upon the Lord Jesus and:

· Believed that Christ could and would save him.

· Counted Christ worthy of his trust.

· Placed his confidence in Christ and in His word.

· Committed his life to Christ.



There are other words that have been translated in English as ‘faithful’

One being “proskarterountes” which means: “to be devoted and attentive to; to give constant attention to; to give unceasing care to; to wait steadfastly upon and to preserve.” This has the Strong’s and NASB # 4342 and the GK# 4674. It can be found in Romans xii:12 and is translated as: ‘Continuing instant’ in the KJV; ‘Devoted’ in the NASB; ‘Faithful’ in the NIV; ‘Continuing steadfastly’ in the NKJV and as ‘Always’ in the NLT.

Another word is “aminantos” which means: “pure, undefiled, faithful, faultless, unstained, devoted, reliable, constant, unswerving, allegiant, unwavering and scrupulous.” This word has the Strong’s and NASB # 283 and the GK # 299. This word can be found in Hebrews xiii:4.



This is but another reason to dig deep into the Greek to gain the true meaning of even the most ‘bland’ of words that have been translated.



Your Brother in Christ

Russ

 

[mlqurgw]

Greetings to cygnusx1!

May I beg to disagree with you.

For instance Ephesians i.1: (KJV) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:



Shall I pick only one word here; ‘faithful.’



What do you think ‘faithful’ means? Does it mean:



Greek, as in all languages that have several words that mean the same thing in English. The English word ‘love’ is one of those words.

English love can mean as I love my dog.

Or, As I love my wife. –eros.

Or, as I love my brother/sister. –philos.

Or, as I love my mother/father. – agape.

You can even love as in covet –viz. money, power, possessions.



In English we have to, too, two. All are pronounced the same –viz. T `0, but the meaning of all three are very different and need not be confused with each other!



Well, in Greek you have more than one word that can be translated into English as ‘faithful.’ Allow me to go into some real detail.



1. In Ephesians i:1 we find ‘faithful,’ being translated as such in the KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV and NLT. This word is pistois {pis-toys’} an adjective and of a masculine gender. It has the Strong’s and NASB# 4103, the GK # 4412. It means: “faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing. The word pistois means a person who has placed his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The practical application is: The faithful person is a person who has looked upon the Lord Jesus and:

· Believed that Christ could and would save him.

· Counted Christ worthy of his trust.

· Placed his confidence in Christ and in His word.

· Committed his life to Christ.



There are other words that have been translated in English as ‘faithful’

One being “proskarterountes” which means: “to be devoted and attentive to; to give constant attention to; to give unceasing care to; to wait steadfastly upon and to preserve.” This has the Strong’s and NASB # 4342 and the GK# 4674. It can be found in Romans xii:12 and is translated as: ‘Continuing instant’ in the KJV; ‘Devoted’ in the NASB; ‘Faithful’ in the NIV; ‘Continuing steadfastly’ in the NKJV and as ‘Always’ in the NLT.

Another word is “aminantos” which means: “pure, undefiled, faithful, faultless, unstained, devoted, reliable, constant, unswerving, allegiant, unwavering and scrupulous.” This word has the Strong’s and NASB # 283 and the GK # 299. This word can be found in Hebrews xiii:4.



This is but another reason to dig deep into the Greek to gain the true meaning of even the most ‘bland’ of words that have been translated.



Your Brother in Christ

Russ

Certainly the Greek is very useful in gaining a better understanding of what was written but I am aware of no real theological debates that have been solved by the Greek. All sides use it and seek to make their points from it. When it comes to sticky theological debates the Greek is as much a matter of interpretation as the English.

 

[kw5kw]

Certainly the Greek is very useful in gaining a better understanding of what was written but I am aware of no real theological debates that have been solved by the Greek. All sides use it and seek to make their points from it. When it comes to sticky theological debates the Greek is as much a matter of interpretation as the English.

While I am no scholar, I try to use the Greek to get a 'cleaner' meaning to what was being written, to whom it was written, why it was written and when it was written. Without that knowledge how can you begin to understand why Paul would write to the people in Cornith that women should not talk in church (for example), and how that just isn't the case in the twenty-first century after the birth of my LORD and savior. ( I prefer the English spelling with the 'u' -viz. "saviour.")

As for Theological, all debates are between mere mortals, of which I am one. I pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance daily if not hourly, and at times minute to minute that He might be my guide to the truths locked in the mystery we call the Holy Scriptures.

Your brother in Christ,
Russ

 

[mlqurgw]

While I am no scholar, I try to use the Greek to get a 'cleaner' meaning to what was being written, to whom it was written, why it was written and when it was written. Without that knowledge how can you begin to understand why Paul would write to the people in Cornith that women should not talk in church (for example), and how that just isn't the case in the twenty-first century after the birth of my LORD and savior. ( I prefer the English spelling with the 'u' -viz. "saviour.")

As for Theological, all debates are between mere mortals, of which I am one. I pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance daily if not hourly, and at times minute to minute that He might be my guide to the truths locked in the mystery we call the Holy Scriptures.

Your brother in Christ,
Russ

Agreed. I certainly am no scholar in any sense of the word. I abhor the use of Greek in sermons unless it is absolutely necessarily because it isn't necessary. Many, IMHO, use it just to show off. We should avail ourselves of all the tools at our disposal but we need not make it to be a point of argument. Take for example the interpretation of the Greek pas into all as it has been discussed in this thread. It hasn't solved the debate but only raised more questions. It seems that every time someone uses the Greek there is a difference of opinion as to what it means.

 

[Normann]

Word Study...

.
​

Ephes. 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This is one of the passages many Calvinisn have used when talking with me.

Let's examine the words good pleasure of his will,

PLEASURE from the Greek is eudokia, meaning satisfaction, delight, kindness, wish, purpose, desire, good pleasure (will), × seem good

The word "will" meaning meaning desire, determination, testament, strongly desired, and bequeath as in a will in a fortune to an heir.

Now let's look at the words of John Calvin.

Insitiutes 3.21.5.
...predestination is God's eternal decree by which he determined within himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather life foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others... John Calvin

This statement from John Calvin is in effect saying that God makes mistakes, therefore implying that God is not perfect. This teaching implies that God enjoys torturing humans. It in effect says that God is delighted to see some men go to hell, and that this is being kind to men and that he gets pleasure out of it.


Now let's look at the favorite passage again.

...predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ...

Unto us, those that accept the plan of salvation.
The adoption by Jesus Christ.

Not a pre-selected group but all who will.

It is predestinated where our future is if we accept Christ.

To say that Salvation is only for a pre-selected group, we would need to ignore or change the meaning of the words, all, whosoever, any, whoso, will, and others I am sure.


John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[mlqurgw]

Word Study...

.​

Ephes. 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This is one of the passages many Calvinisn have used when talking with me.

Let's examine the words good pleasure of his will,

PLEASURE from the Greek is eudokia, meaning satisfaction, delight, kindness, wish, purpose, desire, good pleasure (will), × seem good

The word "will" meaning meaning desire, determination, testament, strongly desired, and bequeath as in a will in a fortune to an heir.

Now let's look at the words of John Calvin.

Insitiutes 3.21.5.
...predestination is God's eternal decree by which he determined within himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather life foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others... John Calvin

This statement from John Calvin is in effect saying that God makes mistakes, therefore implying that God is not perfect. This teaching implies that God enjoys torturing humans. It in effect says that God is delighted to see some men go to hell, and that this is being kind to men and that he gets pleasure out of it.


Now let's look at the favorite passage again.

...predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ...

Unto us, those that accept the plan of salvation.
The adoption by Jesus Christ.

Not a pre-selected group but all who will.

It is predestinated where our future is if we accept Christ.

To say that Salvation is only for a pre-selected group, we would need to ignore or change the meaning of the words, all, whosoever, any, whoso, will, and others I am sure.


John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Your use of the Greek is pointless

Edited at staff request.

 

[cygnusx1]

Perhaps you could tell me if it was God's will for Lucifer to fall.

ooooooooohhhhhhhh no ......... it really surprised God , and then an emergency plan was thrown into action to stop everyone from falling out of heaven .......



have you any idea how God prevented all the Angels from falling ?



Predestination ...........ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh what a wonderful word!

 

[woobadooba]

Your use of the Greek is pointless as is most of your posts.

Is there some reason why you have to be so rude?

Really, where is Christ's love in this kind of response?

Did you pray before you made this comment?

 

[woobadooba]

ooooooooohhhhhhhh no ......... it really surprised God , and then an emergency plan was thrown into action to stop everyone from falling out of heaven .......



have you any idea how God prevented all the Angels from falling ?



Predestination ...........ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh what a wonderful word!

It's sarcasm like this that gives this forum a bad reputation, and inhibits a meaningful discussion.

Did you pray before you typed these words?

Where is Christ's love?

 

[cygnusx1]

It's sarcasm like this that gives this forum a bad reputation, and inhibits a meaningful discussion.

Did you pray before you typed these words?

Where is Christ's love?

that was a loving response Dude ................ you don't know when your liked

 

[Normann]

Your use of the Greek is pointless as is most of your posts.

Without the Greek we would not have an understandable N.T.

It is necessary to make clear some of the words in the N.T. as in the word "for" and many, many more.

I've used the Greek and Hebrew in almost all of my sermons for over 50 years.

Without the Hebrew we would not have an understandable O.T.

2 Tim. 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

rightly dividing ... does this mean to divide the word of God?
No, in the Greek it means to ...

Greek: orthotomeo set straight; handle right. ...to give the true meaning, but also the correct application to the various times and classes of people.

To divide dispensationally, prophetically, historically, and with regard for classes and subjects.

If we do not follow a set rule for Bible study we come up with false teachings, just as the world sees today.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[mlqurgw]

Without the Greek we would not have an understandable N.T.

It is necessary to make clear some of the words in the N.T. as in the word "for" and many, many more.

I've used the Greek and Hebrew in almost all of my sermons for over 50 years.

Without the Hebrew we would not have an understandable O.T.

2 Tim. 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

rightly dividing ... does this mean to divide the word of God?
No, in the Greek it means to ...

Greek: orthotomeo set straight; handle right. ...to give the true meaning, but also the correct application to the various times and classes of people.

To divide dispensationally, prophetically, historically, and with regard for classes and subjects.

If we do not follow a set rule for Bible study we come up with false teachings, just as the world sees today.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

This is the first post I have read of yours that actually said something worth a response. As I said earlier, the original languages are extremely useful tools but are not necessary from the pulpit. The pulpit is not a place of linguistic instruction but a place for the declaration of simple truth. Here is Mr. Brewers instruction to young Toplady;
Preach Christ crucified. Avoid needless controversy in the pulpit. When you ascend the pulpit leave learning behind. Do not affect to much oratory, showmanship.

I admit that preaching involves a certain amount of pride but what are we really seeking when in the pulpit? Do we want to show folks how well educated we are or how much we have studied or to tell as simply as we can the truth of Christ in the power of the Spirit?

I have yet to see it do so when used by any in debates. It has solved no theological disparities as can be seen by centuries of debate over the same questions and the Greek used on both sides by scholarly men.

 

[cygnusx1]

Many Christians hate Calvinist doctrines ............. and then go to church and sing this :


Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou art the Potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Search me and try me, Master, today!
Whiter than snow, Lord, wash me just now,
As in Thy presence humbly I bow.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me, I pray!
Power, all power, surely is Thine!
Touch me and heal me, Savior divine.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Hold o’er my being absolute sway!
Fill with Thy Spirit ’till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me.

 

[woobadooba]

Many Christians hate Calvinist doctrines ............. and then go to church and sing this :


Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou art the Potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Search me and try me, Master, today!
Whiter than snow, Lord, wash me just now,
As in Thy presence humbly I bow.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me, I pray!
Power, all power, surely is Thine!
Touch me and heal me, Savior divine.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Hold o’er my being absolute sway!
Fill with Thy Spirit ’till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me.

I don't think this song represents what Calvin believed. It just suggests the idea that Jesus disclosed in His pleading prayer to the Father, "Not my will, but your will be done."

Yet, it was still Jesus' choice to go to the cross. And so it is our choice too. Gal. 2:20

 

[Annabel Lee]

Many Christians hate Calvinist doctrines ............. and then go to church and sing this :


Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou art the Potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Search me and try me, Master, today!
Whiter than snow, Lord, wash me just now,
As in Thy presence humbly I bow.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me, I pray!
Power, all power, surely is Thine!
Touch me and heal me, Savior divine.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Hold o’er my being absolute sway!
Fill with Thy Spirit ’till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me.

I've never heard or sang that song in my entire life.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't think this song represents what Calvin believed. It just suggests the idea that Jesus disclosed in His pleading prayer to the Father, "Not my will, but your will be done."

Yet, it was still Jesus' choice to go to the cross. And so it is our choice too. Gal. 2:20

look beyond the superficial and you will discover.... of anything that desribes man as clay in the hands of the potter ....... so it seems it is fine to accept God's total control over our lives ON OUR OWN STIPULATION ..... ie , God is Sovereign if I permit it!