Predestination??

[Reformationist]

Note 1 at Rom. 8:29: The word "foreknowledge" (see ref. a at this verse) refers to God knowing who would accept His offer of salvation in advance of them actually doing it.

So sad that this entire post is made worthless by it's opening explanation. First off, the word "foreknowledge" does not refer to God's prior knowledge of events. When the Bible says, "For those He foreknew..." it is referring to a special "knowledge" He has of people. In fact, it refers to His loving knowledge, or rather, His purpose to love them from everlasting to everlasting. Secondly, to claim that God's bases His elective purpose on what He knows man will choose does violence to Scripture which states that it is NOT according to him who runs (Hello?? This is a reference to actions of man) nor of him who desires (Hello??? This is a reference to the desires of man) but of God who shows mercy. Additionally, Scripture is explicit that God's choice in election is not based on what man does:

Romans 9:11
for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls

Now, if your contention is that they simply had not performed any good or evil, you make the passage, in fact, the entire ninth chapter of Romans, moot. If it was based on God's knowledge of what man would choose, why in the world would Paul preemptively address the forthcoming protest:

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Why would anyone think that God is unrighteous if He elects based on what He knows man will choose? Obviously no one would. Additionally, we wouldn't need to be reminded of His words to Moses that He will have mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy on and His mercy isn't based on man's works or desires.

The rest of the chapter continues in the same vein and I would be happy to show you how each section utterly obliviates your position, if that is necessary. Somehow I think you will not go gently into that good night. Let me just offer this...before you respond, insert your view that God elected Jacob over his older brother, an act contrary to Jewish custom, according to what they had done and then read each concern that Paul preemptively addresses. If you are right, why would anyone say that "God is unrighteous" or wonder why "He would still find fault." Every passage in that chapter speaks against the position you purport in your post.

Alas, the rest of it is a waste and I'll forego responding to it.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

justinstout, would you please chill with the ridiculous cut and paste jobs. They never add anything worthwhile to a discussion.

 

[Reformationist]

Well, I'm going to call it a night. 4:45 a.m. is going to come way too early. Catch y'all later.


God bless you all and may He shine His grace upon you and keep you ever before His loving countenance.

 

[Catholic Dude]

People can also look to this page:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2053699-how-does-a-calvinist-know-they-are-elect.html&page=1&pp=40

 

[BrotherSteve]

Let me see if I got this straight. God could have stopped it but, instead, chose to allow it to happen. Tell me, if God knew it would happen, could have stopped it from happening, chose not to stop it from happening, how in the world of logic is that not His sovereign decision to ensure that it comes to pass, which is, in a nutshell, His sovereign act of predestination?

God bless

you are sayting that allowing something to happen that you know will happen is predestination - it is not. I understand that viewpoint now, but I don't agree that predestination is the same as allowing something to happen that you know will happen. Although, the two do appear the same from the outside.

 

[Reformationist]

you are sayting that allowing something to happen that you know will happen is predestination - it is not.

As I seem to have confused you, let me see if I can explain it from a God centered point of view. We are volitional creatures. That means that even our choice to refrain from choosing a certain way, i.e., not choosing, is synonymous with choosing in a different manner. Of course, we are finite, impotent creatures so our choice to refrain from choosing does not ensure anything comes to pass. However, when we apply this same logic to God, from whom all power omnipotently flows, His choice to refrain from choosing to stop something from coming to pass that He knows would otherwise come to pass is synonymous with Him ensuring that it does come to pass as it naturally would apart from His intercession.

Let's apply it to a practical scenario. We both agree that God could have stopped the tragedy of 9/11 from coming to pass. As far as I know, we also both agree that God knew it would come to pass if He didn't stop it. So, here we have a God who knows that certain things will come to pass unless He intercedes coupled with the knowledge that God has both the power and authority to stop it from coming to pass. Now, we live in reality so we also both know that the tragedy of 9/11 did come to pass. Put all this knowledge together and what we can easily deduce is that though God could have stopped the events of 9/11 from coming to pass, He chose to not stop them from coming to pass. In doing so, He ensured that they would come to pass. In no way do I imply that God was either obligated to stop it from coming to pass or responsible for it coming to pass simply because He could have stopped. What I am saying is that God, in the providential manner of passivity, ensured that the events of 9/11 would come to pass. All of this was decided prior to 9/11. It was ordained that it would come to pass. It wasn't a coincidence that what God knew would come to pass actually did come to pass.

That make it any clearer?

God bless

 

[Normann]

............why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

John Calvin preached one of the biggest lies ever told. His writings say that little babies who he did not choose before birth will go to hell and suffer.

That make God an evil person and is not true to God's nature.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Normann]

To say that there is an absolute select number of people that God predestined to be saved and go to heaven before time even began is extremely Calvinistic. L in the TULIP stands for Limited Atonement. I do believe that we all make our own choices but that God knows what choice that we are going to make so in essence he knows who is going to heaven and who is going to become saved or not and from that one could derive that God chose believers.

Waht part of whosoever do they not understand?
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,

 

[oworm]

John Calvin preached one of the biggest lies ever told. His writings say that little babies who he did not choose before birth will go to hell and suffer

Really? Can you provide a quote or a link to where i might find such a statement?

 

[Albion]

His writings say that little babies who he did not choose before birth will go to hell and suffer.

Where do they go?

 

[seekingpurity047]

You mention Christ loved the Church. May I ask where this Church is today and who the individuals are who guide this Church?

Here is Refomed.org , and on this page titled "Historic Church Documents", please select any topic/link under the section "Creeds" and explain what you mean by "Church" and give some details on history, authority and official teachings especially relating to these Church creeds.

The Church = Body of believers.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[seekingpurity047]

Waht part of whosoever do they not understand?
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,

Umm... Normann, I understand waht whosoever means. It means exactly waht it says: whosoever. Allow me to ask a series of questions...

Who is the "whosoever"?

If that whosoever is the whosoever that believes on the name of the Lord, then who's the whosoever who believes on the name of the Lord?

This verse does NOT imply free will. If it did, Paul would ahve said "Whosoever believes, by their free will, shall be saved...."

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[edie19]

if predestination is conditional it is not predestination...

Amen to that.

We no more choose God than we choose our birth parents.

 

[MbiaJc]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Predestination: is simply this, God determined be the foundation of the world was laid, that He would give the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, the power to become sons of God.

 

[Normann]

Really? Can you provide a quote or a link to where i might find such a statement?

Read it in his own works...

"...even infants...suffer..." (2.1.8. Institutes) by John Calvin

...but Jesus said...
Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[calidog]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Why do you assume God has predestined some to Hell. Where in the bible doe's it say that. We can't base our theology on assumptions.

 

[Reformationist]

Talk about taking something out of context to disprove a point and then showing yourself to be completely ignorant of that which you argue against...

You said, "John Calvin preached one of the biggest lies ever told. His writings say that little babies who he did not choose before birth will go to hell and suffer."

To support that you cite ICR 2.1.8:

Read it in his own works...

"...even infants...suffer..." (2.1.8. Institutes) by John Calvin

ICR 2.1.8 ACTUALLY says:

"And the Apostle most distinctly testifies, that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned," (Rom. 5: 12 that is, are involved in original sin, and polluted by its stain. Hence, even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother's womb, suffer not for another's, but for their own defect."

This passage, which you inappropriately cite to show Calvin's stance on what happens to infants that die, actually refers to the imputation of a sinful nature by virtue of Adam's representative works, more commonly known as the doctrine of original sin. It says nothing about whether babies go to hell if God doesn't choose them.

 

[Catholic Dude]

Talk about taking something out of context to disprove a point and then showing yourself to be completely ignorant of that which you argue against...

You said, "John Calvin preached one of the biggest lies ever told. His writings say that little babies who he did not choose before birth will go to hell and suffer."

To support that you cite ICR 2.1.8:




ICR 2.1.8 ACTUALLY says:

"And the Apostle most distinctly testifies, that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned," (Rom. 5: 12 that is, are involved in original sin, and polluted by its stain. Hence, even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother's womb, suffer not for another's, but for their own defect."

This passage, which you inappropriately cite to show Calvin's stance on what happens to infants that die, actually refers to the imputation of a sinful nature by virtue of Adam's representative works, more commonly known as the doctrine of original sin. It says nothing about whether babies go to hell if God doesn't choose them.

Just a question, what if God didnt pick your baby?

 

[Reformationist]

Just a question, what if God didnt pick your baby?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking what his/her/his (I actually have two sons and a daughter) eternal disposition would be were God to not intercede and regenerate them from death in their sins to life in the Lord Jesus?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Catholic Dude]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking what his/her/his (I actually have two sons and a daughter) eternal disposition would be were God to not intercede and regenerate them from death in their sins to life in the Lord Jesus?

Thanks,
God bless

How does one know if their children are among the elect? Or do they?