Predestination??

[Reformationist]

If I might respond to this one point.

That is basically a contradiction of the nature of a gift. While you may choose what you will do with a gift you cannot choose to accept a gift. Please let me explain.
If I give you a bazillion dollors it becomes yours by virtue of it being a gift. I make it yours when I give it to you. You may choose to give it back or to just not even acknowledge it or to spend it. You can make that choice because it is yours now to do with as you will. The reciet of a gift is passive on the part of the one who recieves it. That is what makes it a gift.

On the other hand if I only offer you a bazillion dollors on the condition that you accept it you are the one who makes it yours when you actively accept it.

So then the question becomes does God give salvation to all men or only offer it? Is it a gift or an offer? What do the Scriptures say.

I have made this very point on numerous occasions, to no avail. Nicely done.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Whatever, I don't agree that I was inaccurately relaying the reformed view.

Okay. Why don't you ask some other reformed Christians and see if they think you were?

Moreover, I believe you misunderstood what I was saying.

Definite possibility.

That is what my reply meant.

If you say so. I do not see that thought reflected anywhere in your reply.

I don't personally think there's any point in arguing over it, and I certainly am not going to trade insults with you.

That's good. Just for the record, I was not aware that either of us had insulted each other but, if you felt that I have insulted you, I apologize. It certainly was not my intent.

My purpose was only to help Brother Steve who obviously has a very difficult time making sense out of the mindset of reformed Christians. Go ahead and heap a lot of theological minutia upon a beginner or quote Bible verse after Bible verse without answering his questions about the LOGIC in the predestination question, and you're not going to wind up being a very effective teacher (as we can see) .

Despite what you said, I guess you were willing to trade insults, or at least offer a few of your own.

God bless

 

[cg1970]

My question is exactly that - is it good theology to say that God has already predestined people for either salvation or damnation. I understand that God can (and does) harden the hearts of some people (Pharo for example) so that he can be glorified.

But Jesus died so that all people might have salvation. If God predestined some people to go to Hell then Jesus died so that some people might go to Heaven not all people. I don't think that is biblical.



I understand the explination but I don't agree with the logic. The very idea of having "the oportunity" to accept the Gospel of Christ goes against predestination. If one is predestined it doesn't matter what they do they will still end up at the same place.

How can you state that God has predestined some to go to Hell? That is pure hogwash. A good and just God would NOT create people to predestinate to hell. If you don't agree that our God is good and just and loving, then maybe you just don't know him. Our purpose is to be God's family. Why would he want part of his family in Hell? PLEEEEAAASSSSEEE pray for wisdom!

 

[BrotherSteve]

If I might respond to this one point.

That is basically a contradiction of the nature of a gift. While you may choose what you will do with a gift you cannot choose to accept a gift. Please let me explain.
If I give you a bazillion dollors it becomes yours by virtue of it being a gift. I make it yours when I give it to you. You may choose to give it back or to just not even acknowledge it or to spend it. You can make that choice because it is yours now to do with as you will. The reciet of a gift is passive on the part of the one who recieves it. That is what makes it a gift.

On the other hand if I only offer you a bazillion dollors on the condition that you accept it you are the one who makes it yours when you actively accept it.

So then the question becomes does God give salvation to all men or only offer it? Is it a gift or an offer? What do the Scriptures say.

I don't think that is a complete description of a gift particularly as it pretains to salvation.

As defined by www.dictionary.com a gift is "Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation."

Give has many definitions - one that is relavent is "To permit one to have or take." To actually recieve the gift we have to accept it. You can try to give me a gift but if I refuse to take it then you can never give it.

So, when we say that "salvation is the gift of God" it is like saying "salvation is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation by God." To say that "God has given us salvation" is to say that "God has permitted us to have salvation."

 

[BrotherSteve]

Wow... do I have to go through this again? Sheesh... Eph. 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the CHURCH and gave himself up for HER, 26that he might sanctify HER, having cleansed HER by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the CHURCH to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that SHE might be holy and without blemish.[a]

Read the bible. We have gone through this before. Christ died for the Church, that's how He displays His love for us MORE than for the rest of the world. I set up the analogy before. Who would you love more, your wife, or every other woman on the face of the earth, or would you love them all exactly the same way? Church = Christ's bride/wife. Christ loves His wife MORE than he loves the reprobate. The church doesn't go to hell, does it? Therefore, the Church is loved more by Christ than the world is by Him. Get it right. The analogy makes perfect sense. If we, husbands and future husbands, are to love our WIVES like Christ loved the Church, then we are to love our WIVES MORE than we are to love EVERY OTHER WOMAN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Get it straight. That's why Paul draws this analogy. It's crucial.

I really think you need to look at the context of this passage. The purpose was not to show us how Christ loved the church but to show us how we should love our wives - a sacraficial love like Christ showed for us. In context, this passage is not even relavent to predestination.

If that is the best you can do to show that Christ loves "the Church" more than the people - it is just not good enough for me. Show me verses where is says that Christ died for "the Church" and not for the people. Romans 5:8 for example says that "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

 

[BrotherSteve]

Could God have stopped the events of 9/11 from coming to pass?

God bless

sure, God can do anything he wants to do.

 

[BrotherSteve]

So, after a long discussion I think I better understand the point of view of predestination - even if I don't completely agree with it. Thanks to all for all of the comments.

here is a rough idea of what I think I understand.

It seems that if one reads the bible under the assumption that "the elect" are already predetermined then all the other passages that talk about "us" or "the world", etc. all seem to make sense in the context of "us" being those who are already chosen by God.

However, if you disagree with predestination then passages that talk about "the world" can just as easily mean people in general.

The end result of salvation seems to be the same - just some believe that you will believe because God has determined that you will and others believe that you will be of the elect because you choose to accept what God has given us.

I would say that God has a foreknowledge of everything that is going to happen but still allows us to make the decision for ourselves. Ultimately for His glory and honor.

Well, the obvious flaw in your conclusion is that salvation is not an offer that is simply extended to us for us to decide whether to "accept." Salvation is something done to man for the glory of the Godhead.

agreed, with the change of "done for" not "done to"

This is a common, and completely insufficient, analogy that is employed by many on this MB. While salvation is truly a "gift" in the sense that we did nothing to deserve it, that is where the analogy must end. Think of a man who was in a fatal accident. He has drowned and has died. Someone comes along and pulls him from the water, with no assistance from the deceased, and revives him, giving him life once again. Was the work of the rescuer a "gift?" Certainly. Can the person who now lives "choose to not accept the gift?" As you can see, that makes no sense. The biblical analogy to the work of regeneration is that of Lazarus. Did Lazarus help Christ give him life? Certainly not. Did Christ ask Lazarus whether he'd be willing to be returned to life? Clearly not. Did Lazarus respond to Christ's command to live? Of course. He responded as those who have been given life respond...he lived.

okay - that is a good response - but it is cercumstantial and does not mean that all gifts (ex. salvation) work the same way. We could just as easily talk about the lady who Jesus healed when she touched His robe. The healing was a gift in every way - but it was a gift that she had to recieve.

The point is that you acknowledge that God, by the dispensation of His grace (in whatever form that is manifested), brings His will to pass. Tell me, as sin is a treasonous act against God, and abominable in His holy eyes, why would God "allow" you to sin when, according to you, He can clearly keep you from doing so?

I certainly don't believe that God tempts me or wants me to sin - God doesn't tempt people (James 1:13). And I also believe Romans 8:28 - that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord - this still doesn't mean that God wants us to sin just that He ultimately uses our sin for good.

Nor am I contending that man doesn't make his own choices. In fact, up to this point I've acknowledged that man must make his own choices. Where you and I seem to disagree is that I do not purport that "being saved" is a choice man makes.

agreed.

I am well aware that the Lord purposes our sanctification through our failures as well as our successes. I do not deny this. What I deny is that the "choice to be saved" is one man makes. Salvation is of God and, as such, something done to us, not with us.

something done for us - because we are unable to do it ourselves.

That event does not show that God changed His mind about anything. It is given that we may understand our reliance upon God. The birth of Manasseh was according to God's ordained plan.

So did the Prophet lie, or did God lie to the Prophet?

And why would He allow us to choose what we think is "good" if it is contrary to what is actually good for us?

don't know. but I do know that sin is not good for us but we still do it.

While God does not condone sin He has purposed even our sin for His glory. The Word tells us that that all things work to the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. Tell me, have you ever exhibited unrighteous anger toward someone and then been humbled and sought their forgiveness? Can you look at your sin of unrighteousness and acknowledge that, while surely a sin, it sanctifies you and conforms you to the image of God? Does it not show you your weakness, your need for God's grace, your reliance upon Him above all things? Does it not equip you to deal with others who exhibit the same behavior, knowing that what they are experiencing is all too common to our flesh and, in compassion, help you to help them overcome, as we are commanded to do for our brothers and sisters:

I agree, this all seem right. God does not condone sin (he does not want us to sin) but he allows us to sin and uses our sin for his purposes.

Best in what sense? It was a violation against the preceptive will of God so, obviously, it is sinful and, therefore, not "good" for them.

Best in the sense of getting to live with God forever in the garden without sin - doesn't get much better than that!

However, it ushered in the Fall of man, the need for a Savior, the resurrection of God's people, the glory of the Godhead, etc. Is that "good?" Do we not have a greater and fuller understanding and appreciation for Christ now that He stands as both our Savior and our Lord?

This is where we can start guessing and playing "what if" games. What is better, a fuller understading of and appreciation for Christ or walking and talking with God in the Garden without sin? What has happened is according to His will.

I have no clue why God forbid them to eat of the tree of knowledge, nor do I think the Bible reveals as much.

Nor do I. But this example does show us how God has used our actions for His good. And it also shows that God can allow man to do things that are at the very least contrary to his "perceptive will"

And my subtitle under my screen name says just that, i.e., Simul iustus et peccator, at the same time (simultaneously), just and sinner. What I'm asking is, when you act in obedience, in faith, what is it that causes you to do so? Earlier you stated, "God keeps me from sinning in many ways." How does He do this? Surely there is more to it than being "reminded of a Scripture" or having the company of a fellow Christian, yes?

I do good works because I want to please my God. I don't think that I can do anything to get to heaven but I do think that if I really love God then I will want to do what he commands.

listing the ways God has kept me from sinning would take more time (and space) than I have today - but that could be an interesting thread: "how has God kept you from sinning?"

 

[BrotherSteve]

How can you state that God has predestined some to go to Hell? That is pure hogwash. A good and just God would NOT create people to predestinate to hell. If you don't agree that our God is good and just and loving, then maybe you just don't know him. Our purpose is to be God's family. Why would he want part of his family in Hell? PLEEEEAAASSSSEEE pray for wisdom!

I don't. that is part of what I was trying to ask in the OP.

 

[cg1970]

I don't. that is part of what I was trying to ask in the OP.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I jumped to a conclusion without thoroughly reading the post. Please forgive me.

 

[justinstout]

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Audio commentary on this verse​

Note 1 at Rom. 8:29: The word "foreknowledge" (see ref. a at this verse) refers to God knowing who would accept His offer of salvation in advance of them actually doing it. The scriptures teach that we (believers) were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). That's how infinite God's ability is to know our choices in advance.

The scriptures also reveal that there are some things God does not know. Twice in the book of Jeremiah God said that the fact that people would offer their children as sacrifices to demon gods never even came into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35). There are some things that God Himself said He had never foreseen.

It is most probable that the Lord has the ability to know everything in advance, but He simply doesn't choose to exercise that ability in every situation. He told us to be wise concerning that which is good and simple (or innocent) concerning that which is evil (Rom. 16:19). He also told us to think on things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, and things that have virtue and praise. That's the way He desires us to be because that's the way He is.

Therefore, when God acted surprised that Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden tree, He probably was. As we have already pointed out from Ephesians 1:4, God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. He knew there would be a transgression and a need for redemption before man was even created. But apparently, He did not utilize His foreknowledge to the extent that He knew every move that man was making. No reason is given for this, but certainly one reason is that an absolute use of God's foreknowledge would hinder His relationship with man.

God sent two angels to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if their actions were really as bad as had been reported to Him (Gen. 18:20-19:29). The Lord tested Abraham (Gen. 22:1-10). After the test He said, "For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen. 22:12). The Lord repented that He had chosen Saul to be king when he saw the way he turned out (1 Sam. 15:11). There are many other examples in scripture.

God's ability to know all things in advance is limitless, but God does not know every detail by His choice. Understanding foreknowledge provides the foundation for understanding predestination (see note 2 at this verse), calling (v. 30), and election (1 Pet. 1:2).

Note 2 at Rom. 8:29: This verse provides the key for unlocking the answer to the doctrine of predestination. Predestination is dependent on foreknowledge (see note 1 at this verse).

The word, "predestinate" means "to predetermine." "Predestinate" and its variant "predestinated" are only used four times in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:5,11). Men have interpreted this doctrine as saying that God predetermines everything in an individual's life, including whether he will be saved or lost. This interpretation is not consistent with other doctrines or examples in scripture. This belief will destroy a person's motivation to fight evil and do good. If God predetermines everything that happens in your life, then everything that happens to you is God's will-even sin. That is not true.

This verse limits God's predestination to only those who He foreknew. This means that only those people who God knew would accept his offer of salvation have been predestined. He does not predestine people to be saved or lost. Those who He foreknew in Christ have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. As we can tell by observation, God doesn't even force that to happen. With some Christians, this will not occur until they receive their glorified bodies, but it will occur.

God gave every individual a free will, and God will not violate that free will except in judgment. Even in judgment, God is only enforcing the choices that each individual has already made of his own free will. Each person has a God-given right to go to hell if he wants to.

Just as in the previous verse, Romans 8:28, God works everything together for good for those who already love God. And even then He does not take away our free will. Everything that happens to us is not good, and it is not from God. However, God in His infinite wisdom can work it together for good. Verse 29 is simply continuing to develop the truth that God is for us and has predetermined that those who have come to Him for salvation will be saved to the uttermost.

Understood correctly, this verse provides great reassurance to the believer that God is for them and working with them to bring them to the complete stature of the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:13).

Note 3 at Rom. 8:29: This English word "firstborn" was translated from the Greek word "prototokos." This is a compound Greek word comprised of "protos" meaning "foremost" (in time, place, order or importance) and "tikto" meaning "to produce" (from seed). Therefore, this word "firstborn" could refer to either first in order or importance. Both of these applications are true of Jesus.

Although others were raised from the dead before Jesus, Jesus was the first one to be raised from the dead, never to die again. Jesus was also the firstborn in the sense of importance since His resurrection made all other resurrections possible.

In context, Paul is stressing that we are predestined to be just like Jesus, then he draws from scripture that prophesied Jesus being the firstborn (Ps. 89:27). Therefore, the point that is being made is the extent that we will be conformed to the image of Jesus. There are other children who will become just like Jesus, and it is in this sense that "firstborn" is used here.




Life for Today Bible Commentary
www.awmi.net

 

[seekingpurity047]

I really think you need to look at the context of this passage. The purpose was not to show us how Christ loved the church but to show us how we should love our wives - a sacraficial love like Christ showed for us. In context, this passage is not even relavent to predestination.

If that is the best you can do to show that Christ loves "the Church" more than the people - it is just not good enough for me. Show me verses where is says that Christ died for "the Church" and not for the people. Romans 5:8 for example says that "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

And, the purpose taht Paul wrote this for was to display that we should love our wives as Christ also loved the Church, as you said. And, might I add, as you ALSO said, Paul mentioned this to tell us how WE should love our wives - "a sacrificial love like Christ did for us (the Church)". And, NOT the reprobate! Christ did NOT die for the reprobate!

You totally contradict yourself. By showing us how to love our wives, Paul gives us the analogy of Christ's loving the Church. If we are to love our wives this way, does Christ love the Church in the same way? OBVIOUSLY! If taht were NOT the case, then Paul would have never mentioned that at all!!!!!!! And, are we to love our wives MORE than we are to love every other woman on the face of the earth? I sure hope so! If Paul wanted us to love our wives as Christ loved EVERYONE, Paul would have said everyone, right? Is everyone part of the Church? NO! The Church is the Body of Believers in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ! So, fundamentally, Christ loves the Church MORE than He loves the reprobate because Paul, totally inspired by the Holy Spirit, tells us that WE should love our wives as CHRIST also loved the CHURCH, not every single person on the face of the earth! Praise God!

Wow... you have round yourself up in a lasso on this one. Contradiction.

As for your statement that this has nothing to do with predestination. I agree to a certain extent, however, the reason why I mention this is because a few posts upwards, you asked the question about God loving everyone compared to loving the Church. And, I used scripture PROPERLY to back up my claim. You, on the other hand, have contradicted it. Paul woudl have never EVER EVER used the analogy if Christ did NOT love the Church MORE than He loves the reprobate. Gosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To the glory of God (which is His priority),

Randy

 

[oworm]

How can you state that God has predestined some to go to Hell? That is pure hogwash.

Romans 9:22-23 Seem to espouse just that.

A good and just God would NOT create people to predestinate to hell.

Again.Scripture clearly states that the Lord raised up Pharoh for His own purposes and to bring glory to himself. His intent was never to save Pharoh because was "Prepared in advance for destruction"

If you don't agree that our God is good and just and loving, then maybe you just don't know him.

The gospel clearly states that He is good and just and loving. He is good in all that He does,he is just in His judgements and He is loving toward those who are His children

Our purpose is to be God's family. Why would he want part of his family in Hell? PLEEEEAAASSSSEEE pray for wisdom!

None of God's family will be in hell ,NOT ONE!! Those who are not in His family will be in hell though.

The doctrine of Gods electing and destining purposes is a tough pill to swallow for some and it sticks in the throat of human pride and arrogance which seeks to usurp the Lord who reigns and is ALMIGHTY. It simply does not do to think of God as anything other than Sovereign in all that he does and purposes to do. That is why I say "If my God is not sovereign in ALL things then you will have to find me another God"

 

[Reformationist]

How can you state that God has predestined some to go to Hell? That is pure hogwash.

Well, actually, it's not "hogwash," pure or otherwise. The Bible explicitly states that very thing, numerous times.

A good and just God would NOT create people to predestinate to hell.

God does not need your approval to create as He sees fit. He explicitly states that He creates, from the same lump of clay, one vessel for the purpose of being honored and another for the purpose of being dishonored.

If you don't agree that our God is good and just and loving, then maybe you just don't know him.

God being "good and just and loving" has nothing to do with whether He creates people with the intent that they be destroyed. His goodness is also not determined by how you define good. You make God's love His obligation toward man, as if loving His creation is the only good and just response. That is as anthropocentric view of the Gospel as I've ever heard.

Our purpose is to be God's family.

Please, for our edification, cite the biblical foundation for such a view?

Why would he want part of his family in Hell?

No one in God's family goes to hell. You make the error of thinking that just because God creates someone they are part of His family. His family are believers.

PLEEEEAAASSSSEEE pray for wisdom!

Please take your own advice.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

sure, God can do anything he wants to do.

Let me see if I got this straight. God could have stopped it but, instead, chose to allow it to happen. Tell me, if God knew it would happen, could have stopped it from happening, chose not to stop it from happening, how in the world of logic is that not His sovereign decision to ensure that it comes to pass, which is, in a nutshell, His sovereign act of predestination?

God bless

 

[justinstout]

The Sovereignty of God

My heart was really stirred this last month. I attended a meeting where an old friend of mine was ministering. He had been through some terrible things that nearly destroyed his faith. He became bitter and angry at God for the things that had happened. When I heard him, he had humbled himself and was again loving the Lord and excited about the future. Praise the Lord! However, in the process, he had come to believe that it was the Lord that caused all his problems. He had resigned himself to the "sovereignty of God."

I believe this is the worst doctrine in the church today. I know that this is a shocking statement and is near blasphemy to some people, but the way "sovereignty" is taught today is a real faith killer. The belief that God controls everything that happens to us is one of the devil's biggest inroads into our lives. If this belief is true, then our actions are irrelevant and our efforts are meaningless. What will be will be.

If we believe that God wills everything, good or bad, to happen to us, gives us some temporary relief from confusion and condemnation, but in the long-term, it slanders God, hinders our trust in God and leads to passiveness.

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
​

The word "sovereign" is not used in the King James Version of the Bible. It is used 303 times in the Old Testament of the New International Version, but it is always used in association with the word "LORD" and is the equivalent of the King James Version's "LORD God." Not a single one of those times is the word "sovereign" used in the manner that it has come to be used in religion in our day and time.

Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.

It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme, that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (Mt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.

This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn. 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.

Men virtually have to climb over the roadblocks that God puts in their way to continue on their course to hell. The cross of Christ and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit are obstacles that every sinner encounters. No one will ever stand before God and be able to fault Him for withholding the opportunity to be saved. The Lord woos every person to Him, but we have to cooperate. Ultimately, the Lord simply enforces the consequences of people's own choices.

God has a perfect plan for every person's life (Jer. 29:11), but He doesn't make us walk that path. We are free moral agents with the ability to choose. He has told us what the right choices are (Dt. 30:19), but He doesn't make those choices for us. God gave us the power to control our destiny.

Typical teaching on the sovereignty of God puts Jesus in the driver's seat with us as passengers. On the surface that looks good. All of us have encountered the disastrous results of doing our own thing. We desire to be led of the Lord, and teaching that nothing happens but what God wills, fits that nicely. However, the scriptures paint a picture of each of us being behind the wheel of our own lives. We are the one doing the driving. We are supposed to take directions from the Lord, but He doesn't do the driving for us.

Man has been given the authority over his own life, but he must have the Lord's direction to succeed. Jeremiah 10:23 says, "O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps." God created us to be dependent upon Him and our independence is at the root of all our problems. As if it wasn't bad enough for man to try to run his affairs independently of God and His standards, it has been made even worse by religion teaching us that all our problems are actually blessings from God. That is a faith killer. It makes people totally passive.

James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." This verse makes it clear that some things are from God and some from the devil. We must submit to the things that are of God and resist the things that are from the devil. The word "resist" means, "Actively fight against." Saying, "Whatever will be will be" is not actively fighting against the devil.

If a person really believed that God is the one who put sickness on him because He is trying to work something for good in his life, then he should not go to the doctor or take any medicine. That would be resisting God's plans. He should let the sickness run its course and thereby get the full benefit of God's correction. Of course, no one advocates that. That is absurd. It is even more absurd to believe that God is the one behind the tragedy.

Acts 10:38 says that Jesus healed all those who were oppressed OF THE DEVIL. It was not God who oppressed them with sickness. It was the devil. It's the same today. Sickness is from the devil, not from God. We need to resist sickness, and by faith, submit ourselves to healing, which is from God through the atonement of Christ.

I know someone is thinking, What about the Old Testament instances where God smote people with sickness and plagues? There is a lot I could say about that if I had the space, but a simplified answer to that question is that none of those instances were blessings. They were curses. God did use sickness in the Old Testament as punishment, but in the New Testament, Jesus bore our curse for us (Gal. 3:12). The Lord would no more put sickness on a New Testament believer than He would make us commit a sin. Both forgiveness of sin and healing are a part of the atonement Jesus provided for us.

Deuteronomy, chapter 28, should forever settle this question for all who believe the Word of God. The first 14 verses of Deuteronomy 28 list the blessings of God and the last 53 verses list the curses of God. Healing is listed as a blessing (Dt. 28:4). Sickness is listed as a curse (Dt. 28:22, 27-28, 35, 59-61). God called sickness a curse. We should not call it a blessing.

Knowing that God is not the author of my problems is one of the most important revelations the Lord has ever given me. If I thought it was God who killed my father when I was 12, and some of my best friends before I was 20; if it was God who had people kidnap me, slander me, threaten to kill me, and turn loved ones against me, then I would have a hard time trusting God, if He was like that.

On the contrary, it is very comforting to know that God only has good things in store for me. Any problems in my life are from the devil, of my own making, or just the results of life on a fallen planet. My heavenly Father has never done me any harm and never will. I KNOW that.

I am not saying that there is nothing to learn from hardships. Most of you reading this letter have come to the Lord because of something in your life that overwhelmed you and caused you to turn to the Lord for help. That situation was not from God regardless of the results. It was you turning to the Lord, and the faith you placed in Him that turned your life around, not the hardship.

If hardships and problems made us better, then everyone who has had problems would be better for them. Those who have the most trouble would be the best. That simply is not so.

Let me illustrate this with a story about my son, Joshua. When he was only a year old, I was loading lumber on a large truck in the heat of a Texas summer. I had Joshua with me and he was having a big time playing in the lumber yard. By mid-afternoon, he was tired and sleepy and started to lie down in the dirt for a nap. I knew his mother wouldn't like that, so I put him in the cab of the truck to lie down and take his nap.

He had been wanting to get into that truck all day and when I put him in there, he revived. I had to roll the windows down because it was hot and Joshua was leaning out the windows and waving at me in the side view mirrors. I told him to lie down and even gave him a spanking, but he didn't take heed. He leaned out the window too far, fell out of the cab, hit his eye on the running board and landed on his head.

I ran up to him, prayed over him, and held him until he quit crying. Then I told him that was why I told him to lie down and go to sleep and not lean out the window. I used that situation which caused him pain, to teach him, but if Joshua would have been like the sovereignty teachers of today, he would have gone out and told all his friends that his father made him fall out of that truck to teach him to obey. That's not so. I did what I could to restrain him. I would be very hurt if that's the way Joshua thought I was.

Likewise, I don't believe it blesses our heavenly Father for us to blame Him for all the problems that come into our lives. Sure, He will comfort us when we turn to Him in the midst of our problems, but He doesn't create the negative circumstances that hurt our lives.

God is sovereign in the sense that He is paramount and supreme. There is no one higher in authority or power, but that does not mean He exercises His power by controlling everything in our lives. God has given us the freedom to choose. He has a plan for us. He seeks to reveal that plan to us and urge us in that direction, but we choose. He doesn't make our choices for us.

In many instances, it is our wrong choices that bring disaster upon us. In other cases, our problems are nothing but an attack from the devil. In some cases, natural forces of an imperfect world cause us pain. Our tragedies are never the judgment or correction of God. Jesus came to give us abundant life. The devil came to steal, kill and destroy (Jn. 10:10). Don't ever get that confused. If it's good, it's God. If it's bad it's the devil.

This is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity that must be understood properly if you want victory in your life. Believing that God controls everything renders a person passive. Why pray and believe for something better? Whatever God wants will come to pass. That simply is not true.

The Lord is the answer to all our problems. He is not the problem.

 

[justinstout]

Must Satan Ask God’s Permission To Do Evil?



A very well known biblical record that needs to be considered is the Book of Job. In Chapters One and Two, “Satan” is referred to as one of the angels who presented himself before the Lord. In light of the New Testament, we today realize that “Satan” is one of the names Scripture gives to the Devil, but the Hebrew word for “Satan” (as in the Book of Job) simply means “accuser.” Those in the Old Testament thought that “Satan” was only an accusing spirit. They had no concept of him as the mighty spiritual enemy he is.

Misunderstanding, as literal rather than figurative, the “conversations” between God and Satan in the book of Job has caused many people no end of confusion, because it certainly sounds as if the Devil must ask permission from God to do evil, and furthermore, that God sometimes grants him such permission. The New Testament, however, reveals Satan as the “ god of this age,” who does not ask God’s permission before doing evil. If he did, the so-called “war” raging between the forces of good and evil would be a sham.

This is why the dialogue between God and Satan must be an allegory, set forth in Scripture as it is because of the limited understanding of the Old Testament believers. The way most people have interpreted the Book of Job leaves God looking like a bored puppeteer who gets his kicks by tormenting one of his puppets and killing a lot of innocent bystanders just to win a bet with the Devil. By the way, if the Devil did have to get God’s permission in order to do evil, evil would be easy to stop. God could “Just say No!”

The allegory in the opening two chapters of the book of Job serves to illustrate Job’s unconditional love for God. The Book of Job was written to show that Job did not love God only because of what God had done for him. Rather, Job loved God because He is God, and thus is worthy of love no matter what the circumstances were in Job’s life.

The fact that Job did not understand the truth revealed in the New Testament about “Satan” is why he would say, regarding the loss of his wealth and the death of his sons and daughters, “...the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised” (Job 1:21). It is also why the next verse says that “In all this Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.” Not knowing about the Devil’s kingdom and devices, Job could only attribute all his hardship to God.

The Devil has a vested interest in keeping everyone as ignorant about his modus operandi as he possibly can. One way he does this is by afflicting both good people and bad people in such a manner that it is impossible to determine whether a person is good or evil simply by what is happening in his life. It is very important to understand this point, if we as Christians are going to be true sources of help and blessings to others who are in need. Suffering, in and of itself, is not a valid barometer of one’s sinfulness nor his godliness, nor is it an indicator of God’s judgment on one’s life (Luke 13:1-5). Often Satan will arrange the circumstances so that a person doing evil suffers no apparent consequences (Psalm 37:7; Job 21). In other cases, he sees to it that one doing the right thing suffers for it (2 Corinthians 11:23-28).

 

[justinstout]

What about Job?



Although Job knew that the calamity that had befallen him was not due to sin in his life, he did not understand why God (the only possible source of his suffering based on his understanding of life) had afflicted him. Throughout the Book of Job, he continues to ask God, “Why me?” and often does so very angrily.

Does God answer Job’s questions? Not in Job’s lifetime, nor throughout the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Christ, however, taught truths that do answer Job’s questions. Kushner has some excellent insight on the record of Job:

To try to understand the book and its answer, let us take note of three statements which everyone in the book, and most of the readers, would like to be able to believe:


A. God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.

B. God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

C. Job is a good person.

As long as Job is healthy and wealthy, we can believe all three of those statements at the same time with no difficulty. When Job suffers, when he loses his possessions, his family and his health, we have a problem. We can no longer make sense of all three propositions together. We can now affirm any two only by denying the third.

If God is both just and powerful, then Job must be a sinner who deserves what is happening to him. If Job is good but God causes his suffering anyway, then God is not just. If Job deserved better and God did not send his suffering, then God is not all-powerful. We can see the argument of the Book of Job as an argument over which of the three statements we are prepared to sacrifice, so that we can keep on believing in the other two.

Job’s friends are prepared to stop believing in (C), the assertion that Job is a good person. They want to believe in God as they have been taught to. They want to believe that God is good and that God is in control of things. And the only way they can do that is to convince themselves that Job deserves what is happening to him.

Job, for his part, is unwilling to hold the world together theologically by admitting that he is a villain. He knows a lot of things intellectually, but he knows one thing more deeply. Job is absolutely sure that he is not a bad person. He may not be perfect, but he is not so much worse than others, by any intelligible moral standard, that he should deserve to lose his home, his children, his wealth and health while other people get to keep all those things. And he is not prepared to lie to save God’s reputation.

Job’s solution is to reject proposition (B), the affirmation of God’s goodness. Job is in fact a good man, but God is so powerful that He is not limited by considerations of fairness and justice.


​

Kushner correctly states that Job considered himself an innocent victim and that Job thought that God afflicts both the righteous and unrighteous. Often Job attested to his own innocence. He said, “I had not denied the words of the Holy One” (Job 6:10b); “Show me where I have been wrong” (Job 6:24); “I am blameless” (Job 9:21); “You [God] know that I am not guilty” (Job 10:7); “Can anyone bring charges against me? If so, I will be silent and die” (Job 13:19); “As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice” (Job 27:2); and “Let God weigh me in honest scales and He will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6). Job made his case that God does whatever He pleases and afflicts both the innocent and the guilty: “...I say, He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:22).


Under this assumption, Job wished there were a mediator or an umpire that could help him out. “If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both” (Job 9:33). Of course, no umpire or mediator appears. What does appear is a storm, and God Himself speaking from it (Job 38:1). What did God say to Job in answer to his pleading questions? Well, one thing is clear— God did not give Job any reason for the problems besetting him.

Many theologians and Bible teachers rightly point out that God never gave Job an answer to the question of [why he was suffering]: “...God never answers question one about Job’s predicament...” “With all due respect to the many capable and godly preachers and writers who have taught that the major question as addressed in Job is why do the righteous suffer, we note that if this is the question, it is never answered in the Book of Job.”

Why not? Because the truth about the Devil as the source of human suffering was not revealed in the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ who first openly revealed the true source of mankind’s suffering.

Interestingly enough, Rabbi Kushner comes to the same conclusion we do, that proposition (A) is the proposition that is in error — “God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.” We do not, however, agree with his overall understanding of the book of Job, by which he arrives at this conclusion. We arrive at our conclusion from the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Nonetheless, we applaud Kushner’s insight about people’s reaction to this conclusion. He states:

There may be a sense of loss at coming to this conclusion. In a way, it was comforting to believe in an all-wise, all-powerful God who guaranteed fair treatment and happy endings, who reassured us that everything happened for a reason, even as life was easier for us when we could believe that our parents were wise enough to know what to do and strong enough to make everything turn out right. But it was comforting the way the religion of Job’s friends was comforting: it worked only as long as we did not take the problems of innocent victims seriously. When we have met Job, when we have been Job, we cannot believe in that sort of God any longer without giving up our own right to feel angry, to feel that we have been treated badly by life.



​

The New Testament makes it crystal clear that not everything that happens is God’s will. For example, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God’s will would be done on earth (Matthew 6:10). If everything that happens is God’s will, such prayer is superfluous. In Romans 1:10, Paul said he prayed for “a prosperous journey in the will of God” to see the believers there. Another meaningless prayer? No. The will of God for an individual, whether revealed in the written Word of God or by direct revelation, generally comes to pass only when that person understands it and, by his own , acts accordingly.


Rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we must make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it. God’s will, for example, is that people do not steal, but rather that they work to earn what they need (Ephesians 4:28). Very simple. We just do what He says. But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience. What a travesty of logic!

Going a step further then, if it is so easy for us humans to disobey God, what about the Devil and his spirit army? Can humans sin by choice while evil spirits cannot? Obviously spirit beings can sin, since sin was the reason the Devil and his hosts were thrown out of God’s presence to begin with. Via Adam’s sin, the Devil was legally given authority over the earth. The Devil did not and does not obey God. The Devil has been sinning for a long time (1 John 3:8). The Devil is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and a thief (John 10:10).

 

[justinstout]

Does God "Permit" Evil?



To some Christians (though not enough), it sounds too hideous to say something like “God killed your son,” when a child is run over by a bus. So they euphemistically say that God “allowed” the child to be run over by a bus. But can a logical mind make any distinction between the two? Ours do not, and we doubt if yours does either. If God could have stopped it, but instead allowed it, He necessarily shares the responsibility for the tragedy.


The Word of God also says that Satan is the one who now holds the power of death, that is, he is the ultimate cause of death. This is either directly, via evil spirit intervention, such as a spirit of murder causing one person to murder another, or indirectly, via one of the countless diseases he has introduced into the world.


Hebrews 2:14

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroyhim who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.


Suppose you are sitting in a restaurant visiting with two friends, Bill and Joe. Bill sees a guy with a lead pipe in his hand sneaking up behind you. He turns to Joe and asks, “How’s your family?” When you wake up, don’t you think you will blame Bill almost as much as you blame the guy who hit you with the pipe? Who can truly love a God who causes suffering, or one who could stop it, but just decides to “allow” it to happen?


In the beginning, as we have stated, God decided to “allow” or “permit” the possibility of evil in order to make possible an unforced response of genuine goodness and love. If something contrary to His will happens, it is because God cannot at that moment stop it without going against His own nature. How could that be? We believe there are three very good reasons. First, because although He is the most powerful One in the war, His righteous nature requires Him to act justly toward His formidable foe, the Devil. Second, He cannot usurp anyone’s personal freedom of will. Third, His justice requires Him to allow people to experience the consequences of disobedience.


To say that God cannot always stop evil flies in the face of many Christian people’s fatalistic concept of “the sovereignty of God,” 1 a phrase, by the way, not found in Scripture. To most Christians, this means that God is ruling over everything that happens, and is thus responsible for it all. Most Christians have also been taught that God is “omnipotent,” which according to Webster’s actually means “all powerful.” 2 Obviously God does not have all power, because Satan also has plenty. We believe that most Christians use the term “omnipotent” to mean that God has the most power and therefore can do whatever He wants. Although we certainly believe that God is the most powerful, we do not believe He can always do whatever He wants. As we have previously stated, He has limited Himself in His Word as to what He will and will not do.


Despite how much we may love to sing the verses of “Joy To The World” at Christmastime, there are a number of Scripture verses that indicate that the world is not yet subject to the rule of the Lord.3


For example:


1 Corinthians 15:24-26

(24) Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

(26) The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


It is obvious from the above verses that there is some “dominion,” some “authority” and some “power” that is not yet subject to the Lord. Furthermore, it is obvious that death is an enemy of God, not a tool He uses, and that it is not yet destroyed. Another pertinent verse is in Hebrews chapter 10.


Hebrews 10:12, 13

(12) But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

(13) Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.


Since Christ is now waiting for his enemies to become his footstool, it is obvious that at this time they are not under his subjection. But God is the most powerful and most wise one in the fight, and that means that human history as a whole will be resolved according to His will. The “whole” will be made up of the parts of human history— individuals — who chose to believe God’s Word and do His will.


In regard to God’s eventual victory, consider the analogy of a chess match between current World Chess Champion Bobby Fischer and the president of a high school chess club. Although the latter might capture a few of his opponent’s pieces and perhaps, to an untrained eye, even appear to gain the upper hand at some point, the outcome is never in doubt. No matter what the lesser player may do by the freedom of his will, the master player always has a superior strategy that will result in ultimate victory. Likewise, God need not stoop to manipulating His opponent in order to achieve His goals.


Hearing this truth may at first cause some Christians great consternation, and even feelings of helplessness. Perhaps this is because they have actually trusted more in fatalistic pre-determinism than in the love, power, ability and willingness of God to keep His promises regarding the present and the future. But wait a minute— think about the only alternatives:


(a) There is no God, your great-grandfather was a lizard and life is a “crapshoot.” Good luck!

(b) You are God. Good luck!

(c) There is a God Who determines everything that happens. He is able and willing to both help you and hurt you, and there are no guarantees which He will do, or when He will do it. Good luck!

(d) There is a God who once made a Paradise for man and Who has guaranteed for those who believe His Word that it will one day again be so. In the meantime, He and His Son are far more powerful than their (and your) enemy and they are doing their absolute best for you each day. You have God’s Word on it. You don’t need “luck.”

Which sounds best to you? When properly understood, this truth will for you result in greater love for God, greater hatred for the Devil and greater desire to obey God’s Word.

 

[Reformationist]

The end result of salvation seems to be the same - just some believe that you will believe because God has determined that you will and others believe that you will be of the elect because you choose to accept what God has given us.

IOW, some people believe that the plan of redemption is Authored and Finished by God, as Scripture states, while others believe that they are the masters of their own destiny. It really boils down to who you wish to ultimately credit with you salvation, as shown in your following words, which actually make no sense:

I would say that God has a foreknowledge of everything that is going to happen but still allows us to make the decision for ourselves. Ultimately for His glory and honor.

Aside from the fact that this claim relegates God to the role of spectator, which is completely unbiblical, you claim that God is glorified because you are the one who makes the decision for yourself. I imagine that you see this as glorifying to God because you chose to return His "offer of love and salvation" but, in truth, it paints a pitiful picture of the God of Scripture, who apparently rings His pitiful hands with worry over the response of His creation, all the while knowing that many of those that He desires to return His love actually will not. That makes God some ridiculous [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] who has set Himself up for eternal disappointment.

agreed, with the change of "done for" not "done to"

In the dispensation of God's loving act of regeneration, "done for" and "done to" mean one and the same thing.

okay - that is a good response - but it is cercumstantial and does not mean that all gifts (ex. salvation) work the same way.

Of all the biblical gifts, salvation more than any other should be viewed in that manner.

We could just as easily talk about the lady who Jesus healed when she touched His robe. The healing was a gift in every way - but it was a gift that she had to recieve.

She acted in faith but His mercy is based on His purpose, not on our works.

I certainly don't believe that God tempts me or wants me to sin - God doesn't tempt people (James 1:13). And I also believe Romans 8:28 - that all things work together for good for those who love the Lord - this still doesn't mean that God wants us to sin just that He ultimately uses our sin for good.

So does God plan ahead of time, in fact, purpose even our sins to sanctify us, which is a very good thing? Or, do you think He runs around responding to man's unexpected works?

something done for us - because we are unable to do it ourselves.

Why is it done for us? Is it done for everyone?

So did the Prophet lie, or did God lie to the Prophet?

Of course not. God's decrees are often spoken of in the "if you don't repent from this, God will do this" type of vein. Additionally, these stories are given to show us our reliance upon God for all things, even the daily perpetuation of our life.

don't know. but I do know that sin is not good for us but we still do it.

Do you ever choose to sin? If so, does good ever come of it? Do you think it's possible that, even though you freely chose to do what God has forbidden, that He even had a plan in your freely willed disobedience? Have you ever heard of the doctrine of concurrence, i.e., providence?

I agree, this all seem right. God does not condone sin (he does not want us to sin) but he allows us to sin and uses our sin for his purposes.

In fact, He purposes our sins to conform us from the beginning. No sin catches God off guard. All things work to our good. We are conformed by our sinfulness.

Best in the sense of getting to live with God forever in the garden without sin - doesn't get much better than that!

The covenant that God made with Adam and Eve was one of works. Adam served as our representative before God for wealth or ruin, for all his progeny. When he fell, we fell with him. Again, this did not come as a surprise to God. Our relationship with Him when we are redeemed is even fuller than that of Adam and Eve, for they knew Him only as Lord prior to the Fall of man whereas we know Him as both Lord and Savior. We know the love of God in a way they never did, until they, too, knew Him as Savior.

This is where we can start guessing and playing "what if" games. What is better, a fuller understading of and appreciation for Christ or walking and talking with God in the Garden without sin?

Or better yet, what believers will enjoy which is a fuller understanding and appreciation for Christ and walking and talking with God in glory.

What has happened is according to His will.

I've been saying as much all along.

Nor do I. But this example does show us how God has used our actions for His good. And it also shows that God can allow man to do things that are at the very least contrary to his "perceptive will"

Two things. First, God does not simply "use" our actions for His good. He purposes our actions for His glory and our good:

Proverbs 16:9
A man’s heart plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.

I do good works because I want to please my God. I don't think that I can do anything to get to heaven but I do think that if I really love God then I will want to do what he commands.

I completely agree. Why do you "want to please God?"

God bless

 

[Catholic Dude]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.[/QUOTE]

Allow me to address these issues that you raise up.

God does set up vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Romans 9:21-24). Might I also add that, God loves the world, but not in the same way. Allow me to explain.

God loves (phileo) the world in a different way than he loves (agape) the church. For it is said:
25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] (Eph. 5:25-27)

Allow me to put this into an analogy. Say y ou are married to a wonderful woman, and you love her very much. Do you love your wife in the exact same way that you love every single other woman on the face of the earth? I hope not, cuz then there would be no point in getting married to her, would there? What would make her more special than the others if you love her in the exact same way that you love every other woman?

Christ loves (agape) the church more than he loves (phileo) the world. The Church is His bride. Bring back to the analogy, if the Church is His bride, then shouldn't he love the Church MORE than the rest of the world? Yes.

Might I also add that no person on the face of the earth deserves to be predestined for heaven. We all deserve to go to hell... "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23. "For the wages of sin is death, and the gift of eternal life is thorugh our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom. 6:23. Spiritual death. We are all sinners, therefore spiritually dead, and we all deserve to burn and be eternally condemned where there is gnashing of teeth.

Alot of christians fail to realize these truths. Christians like to place God's love first, and totally ignore God's wrath! Even so... they fail to ignore the priority of God, which is that He may be glorified unto the ends of the earth, through both wrath and mercy (Rom. 9:21-24). Allow me to give you a biblical example where God loved the Israelites more than He did the Egyptians. Ex. 7:1-5

1And the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. 5The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them."

Does God not do this today? I assure you believer, He does. God never changes. He poured out His wrath upon the Egyptians, and I'm sure that if you have ever read Exodus (and if you haven't, I HIGHLY recommend it for understanding the true character of God), you will notice that Pharaoh occasionally had a desire to let the Israelites go, but it was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart. Funny how God worked then, and He still works like that today.

As for the evangelization issue that you have with predestination. Read the bible, it's all over the place. For it is said: Rom. 10:14-17

14But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This is how God saves His elect, by electing other people to believe, and then commanding them to go preach the Gospel, then saving the others by their hearing. It's a matter of cause and effect.

Believer, I pray that you notice these biblical truths that I have given you, and I pray that you praise His name for them.

To the glory of God,

Randy

You mention Christ loved the Church. May I ask where this Church is today and who the individuals are who guide this Church?

Here is Refomed.org , and on this page titled "Historic Church Documents", please select any topic/link under the section "Creeds" and explain what you mean by "Church" and give some details on history, authority and official teachings especially relating to these Church creeds.