Predestination??

[BrotherSteve]

QUOTE=Defcon]No, it is understanding God's word. It only muddies the water when we want to think we contributed something to our salvation.
[/QUOTE]

We contribute nothing to the Gift of Salvation. But we do accept it.

Without the help of the Holy Spirit? I think not. And yes, you can be a slave to something and do it voluntarily. Example, a drug addict that is a slave to the addiction but also wants to continue doing the drug. The slavery is not removed and he does it voluntarily.

I don't really agree with that analogy. I think it is a stretch to say that volunteers can also be slaves. Slaves do what they must - volunteers do what they want.

If you believe that, then how do you explain how God will send those to hell who never hear God's word (i.e. third world countries) if His will is to save each and every individual?

I do believe that God wants these people to believe in Him. That is why I support missionaries to foriegn countries.

Faith is not the work of man it is the work of God (Hebrews 12:2; Ephesians 2:8-9).

It is by grace that we are saved throught faith - the grace part is what we don't do anything for. we still must have faith.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Let me ask this question, then. Did God predestine the events of 9/11?

No, he did not predestine it.

He did allow it. He did know it was going to happen.

maybe you just have a more liberal definition of "predestination" than I do.

 

[mlqurgw]

If I might respond to this one point.

Salvation is something that is given to us - a gift - you can't choose to get a gift. However, you can choose to accept it or not.

That is basically a contradiction of the nature of a gift. While you may choose what you will do with a gift you cannot choose to accept a gift. Please let me explain.
If I give you a bazillion dollors it becomes yours by virtue of it being a gift. I make it yours when I give it to you. You may choose to give it back or to just not even acknowledge it or to spend it. You can make that choice because it is yours now to do with as you will. The reciet of a gift is passive on the part of the one who recieves it. That is what makes it a gift.

On the other hand if I only offer you a bazillion dollors on the condition that you accept it you are the one who makes it yours when you actively accept it.

So then the question becomes does God give salvation to all men or only offer it? Is it a gift or an offer? What do the Scriptures say.

 

[Albion]

Let me clarify that neither I, nor any of my reformed brethren who have responded in this thread (to my knowledge), espouse fatalism. We are created as volitional creatures and, by our very nature, not only can make choices but, in truth, must make choices. Were we incapable of choosing according to our desires we could not logically be held accountable for the choices we make.

This sounds like you are saying that we at least have to choose to sin so that we can "logically be held accountable..." If that is true then it also follows that we would also have to choose to accept God's gift of salvation.

He was saying, I think, that we are not robots and must make moral decisions, but also that that is an issue apart from being saved. Don't run the two together.

Then it is not predestination. This seems contrary to your previous point. But I would agree that we don't "choose" to be saved in the most literal sense. Salvation is something that is given to us - a gift - you can't choose to get a gift. However, you can choose to accept it or not.

If we were speaking of ordinary gifts, that would be true. Here the analogy does not hold, even if we still use the word "gift" to describe something we receive without earning it.

I am not trying to say that I can override God's will. But there is nothing that keeps God from allowing me to make my own choices. He can be there for me and still allow me to not rely on Him. This doesn't take anything away from God's sovereignty.

This sounds OK, but it's not a conclusion based upon either a consideration of God's nature or the words of scripture. When they are factored in, it's not that simple, I submit.

Then let's not call it "free will" but still understand that God allows us to make choices that he knows are not best for us. Really, is it ever best for man to sin. When Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil do you really think this is what God thought was best for Adam and Eve?

Not to be too insistent, but are you not mixing daily moral choices with the matter of being saved?

 

[seekingpurity047]

QUOTE=Defcon]No, it is understanding God's word. It only muddies the water when we want to think we contributed something to our salvation.

We contribute nothing to the Gift of Salvation. But we do accept it.



I don't really agree with that analogy. I think it is a stretch to say that volunteers can also be slaves. Slaves do what they must - volunteers do what they want.



I do believe that God wants these people to believe in Him. That is why I support missionaries to foriegn countries.



It is by grace that we are saved throught faith - the grace part is what we don't do anything for. we still must have faith.[/QUOTE]

ANd who's the Author of our faith? Jesus Christ. You say that "Yes, Jesus is the Author of our faith, but that doesn't mean that He starts it." Actually, it does mean that He starts it. Look up the definition of an author. He writes a book, for example. Well... in order to write a book, you have to start somewhere The author starts the book. The Author, Jesus Christ, starts our faith. Might I also add my two cents (it may turn into a buck fifty...).

John 6:29

29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

If that's the work of God.... then well... I guess it's God's work for us to believe! Amen! We are so depraved in our sin that we cannot get out, and by His grace, and His grace alone, does He grant us eternal life by giving us faith in the only One who saves, Jesus Christ our Lord. And it is through this that He is glorified, for His priority is His glory! That's God's priority! We are here to make much of Him, and He created us in order that He may be made much of!

Truly, truly, I say to you, do all to the glory of God (paraphrased 1 Cor. 10:31).

To the glory of God alone,

Randy

 

[Albion]

"We contribute nothing to the Gift of Salvation. But we do accept it."


What makes you say that? Is it just the analogy to ordinary gifts we receive on our birthdays, etc.? I am not at all certain that we have any choice in the matter, to accept or not.


"It is by grace that we are saved throught faith - the grace part is what we don't do anything for. we still must have faith."

And we cannot do anything to get that, either. When we say that it is by grace through faith that we are saved, we are saying that the gift is freely given (grace), through no merit on our own, but the gift itself is faith.

 

[seekingpurity047]

"We contribute nothing to the Gift of Salvation. But we do accept it."


What makes you say that? Is it just the analogy to ordinary gifts we receive on our birthdays, etc.? I am not at all certain that we have any choice in the matter, to accept or not.


"It is by grace that we are saved throught faith - the grace part is what we don't do anything for. we still must have faith."

And we cannot do anything to get that, either. When we say that it is by grace through faith that we are saved, we are saying that the gift is freely given (grace), through no merit on our own, but the gift itself is faith.

Might I add that there are also two kinds of grace, notably, common grace (you're alive right now, right?) and saving grace (the true believer in Jesus Christ is going to heaven).

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[mlqurgw]

Might I add that there are also two kinds of grace, notably, common grace (you're alive right now, right?) and saving grace (the true believer in Jesus Christ is going to heaven).

To the glory of God,

Randy

Of course that presupposes that there is such a thing as common grace. If I might posit a different view;

God is longsuffering with unbelievers and they do benefit from the grace of God to His elect in that they are sufferd to continue in life for the benefit of the elect. What I mean is that God allows them to exist because in some way they help the elect. Everything that God does is for the glory of His name and the good of His people. Although I could give more passages in this regard I will give only this one because it seems to be most clear on the subject.

Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Isa 43:7Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Um... that verse does support my claim. Christ gave Himself up for who? THE CHURCH! Why? Because He loved her MORE than He loved the others. Read the bible in greek as well, there are two words that are used for love, notably Agape (unconditional, saving love, the kind of love that we should feel toward, ie. our wives, or our children, or our parents) and Phileo (brotherly love, the kind of love that we should feel toward everyone else).

There are three (3) Greek words translated into Love in the New Testament.
1. agapê (love, charity)
2. philia (friendship, love)
3. storgê (natural affection)

The second part of your claim that Christ loved the Church more than He loved others is not supported by scripture...if it is show me where.

 

[seekingpurity047]

There are three (3) Greek words translated into Love in the New Testament.
1. agapê (love, charity)
2. philia (friendship, love)
3. storgê (natural affection)

The second part of your claim that Christ loved the Church more than He loved others is not supported by scripture...if it is show me where.

Wow... do I have to go through this again? Sheesh... Eph. 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the CHURCH and gave himself up for HER, 26that he might sanctify HER, having cleansed HER by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the CHURCH to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that SHE might be holy and without blemish.[a]

Read the bible. We have gone through this before. Christ died for the Church, that's how He displays His love for us MORE than for the rest of the world. I set up the analogy before. Who would you love more, your wife, or every other woman on the face of the earth, or would you love them all exactly the same way? Church = Christ's bride/wife. Christ loves His wife MORE than he loves the reprobate. The church doesn't go to hell, does it? Therefore, the Church is loved more by Christ than the world is by Him. Get it right. The analogy makes perfect sense. If we, husbands and future husbands, are to love our WIVES like Christ loved the Church, then we are to love our WIVES MORE than we are to love EVERY OTHER WOMAN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Get it straight. That's why Paul draws this analogy. It's crucial.

To the glory of God, I pray that you get it right,

Randy

 

[mlqurgw]

Wow... do I have to go through this again? Sheesh... Eph. 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the CHURCH and gave himself up for HER, 26that he might sanctify HER, having cleansed HER by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the CHURCH to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that SHE might be holy and without blemish.[a]

Read the bible. We have gone through this before. Christ died for the Church, that's how He displays His love for us MORE than for the rest of the world. I set up the analogy before. Who would you love more, your wife, or every other woman on the face of the earth, or would you love them all exactly the same way? Church = Christ's bride/wife. Christ loves His wife MORE than he loves the reprobate. The church doesn't go to hell, does it? Therefore, the Church is loved more by Christ than the world is by Him. Get it right. The analogy makes perfect sense. If we, husbands and future husbands, are to love our WIVES like Christ loved the Church, then we are to love our WIVES MORE than we are to love EVERY OTHER WOMAN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Get it straight. That's why Paul draws this analogy. It's crucial.

To the glory of God, I pray that you get it right,

Randy

I believe the passage I quoted above would also support you claim. Isa. 43:1-7

 

[BrotherSteve]

Not to be too insistent, but are you not mixing daily moral choices with the matter of being saved?

sure, but the idea of predestination should encapsulate all actions. My agruement is to show that God can be sovereign and still allow us to make choices.

 

[Reformationist]

Well, on the one hand I'm trying to explain something to a poster who can't understand the first thing about the subject, and that opens me up to being attacked by another who thinks I'm too "generalized." So, no good effort goes unpunished, I guess.

It seems as if you think you did a good thing by inaccurately relaying the reformed view of predestination and then got offended when I corrected you, not "punished" you or "attacked" you. The point isn't that God's sovereign dominion is lessened if man contributes something to His being elected. It is that the Bible simply does not teach that God manifests His plan in election according to man's works or desires. As I stated, it was God's choice to establish election as He found most pleasing. He simply did not do so based on the merit in the recipient of His grace.

Additionally, I think it is a bit presumptuous to claim that you are explaining something to someone that "can't understand the first thing about the subject." The subject of predestination is not one that sits easy with man's natural proclivity to think to highly of himself and his inclinations. It often takes time for the biblical foundation for this view to sink in and, in humility, be accepted as the biblical truth.

Besides, I am not certain that God COULD deny his own nature (as you suggest).

I suggest nothing of the sort and it is simply irresponsible of you to make such a claim. Were God to sovereignly choose to condition election on some contribution that man makes it would not be a denial of His nature. His plan would simply have been different. The bottom line is that the plan that He has established, the one He decrees to be ultimately glorifying to the Godhead, does not rely on the contributions of man.

The written word is often difficult to fully understand so if you are being as defensive as you seem in this post, you have no reason. I am not attacking you. I am merely pointing out that the information you are relaying about the reformed view of predestination is inaccurate.

God bless

 

[BrotherSteve]

I am not at all certain that we have any choice in the matter, to accept or not.

Perhaps that is just it - we are not certain if we have that choice. There is no way for anyone to know if we have a choice by our own personal experience. But passages in the bible that say things like "faith comes by hearing [Romans 10:17]" point to the idea that we have to accept what is being said and that people need to say it so others can believe. If one was predestined to believe then it would not hinge on haveing to hear the word.

And we cannot do anything to get that, either. When we say that it is by grace through faith that we are saved, we are saying that the gift is freely given (grace), through no merit on our own, but the gift itself is faith.

In Ephesains 2:8-9 I would say the gift is salavation - not faith - and that faith is the way we get to salvation.

Romans 6:23 clears this up by saying that "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Making it clear that the gift is Salvation not faith.

And in Hebrews we find that"without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

It seems clear that faith is something that can be strengthened and something that we can have and use to please God. While this can be considered a gift in the sense that all we have is a gift from God, I wouldn't say it is a gift in the same way that salvation is a gift.

 

[BrotherSteve]

1. I believe with all my heart that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.
2.I do truly love people and desire that they come to know Christ.
3. I do not know who the elect are and am extememly thankful that I don't.
4. God commanded me to preach the gospel.
5. I know for sure that there are some who will hear it and believe.

And these reasons would be good for anyone who is preaching the gospel regardless of if they believe in predestination.

Given these reasons, predestination in no way keeps me from preaching the Gospel. Actually because of predestination I am more sure of there being a result to my preaching than those who preach and hope someone wiill respond.

God said that His word will not return void (Isaiah 55:11). That should be encouragement for all who preach even if they don't believe in predestination.

 

[Reformationist]

This sounds like you are saying that we at least have to choose to sin so that we can "logically be held accountable..." If that is true then it also follows that we would also have to choose to accept God's gift of salvation. Then it is not predestination.

Well, the obvious flaw in your conclusion is that salvation is not an offer that is simply extended to us for us to decide whether to "accept." Salvation is something done to man for the glory of the Godhead.

This seems contrary to your previous point. But I would agree that we don't "choose" to be saved in the most literal sense. Salvation is something that is given to us - a gift - you can't choose to get a gift. However, you can choose to accept it or not.

This is a common, and completely insufficient, analogy that is employed by many on this MB. While salvation is truly a "gift" in the sense that we did nothing to deserve it, that is where the analogy must end. Think of a man who was in a fatal accident. He has drowned and has died. Someone comes along and pulls him from the water, with no assistance from the deceased, and revives him, giving him life once again. Was the work of the rescuer a "gift?" Certainly. Can the person who now lives "choose to not accept the gift?" As you can see, that makes no sense. The biblical analogy to the work of regeneration is that of Lazarus. Did Lazarus help Christ give him life? Certainly not. Did Christ ask Lazarus whether he'd be willing to be returned to life? Clearly not. Did Lazarus respond to Christ's command to live? Of course. He responded as those who have been given life respond...he lived.

God keeps me from sinning in many ways - there are times in my life when I get caught up in the world and am surrounded by temptation - during these times God has often reminded me of scripture or sent another Christian to stand with me so that I am capable of resisting the temptatino. Othertimes, I sin, and God allows it.

The point is that you acknowledge that God, by the dispensation of His grace (in whatever form that is manifested), brings His will to pass. Tell me, as sin is a treasonous act against God, and abominable in His holy eyes, why would God "allow" you to sin when, according to you, He can clearly keep you from doing so?

I am not trying to say that I can override God's will. But there is nothing that keeps God from allowing me to make my own choices.

Nor am I contending that man doesn't make his own choices. In fact, up to this point I've acknowledged that man must make his own choices. Where you and I seem to disagree is that I do not purport that "being saved" is a choice man makes. Man is the passive recipient of the work of Christ to bring life to His people. Once given life, man lives for the light just as he lived for the darkness when he was dead in his trespasses and sins. Of course, the duality of our nature creates a spiritual tension as our regenerate spirit wars against our sinful flesh but it is this very battle that produces in us Christian character and strengthens our faith in God for deliverance. It is because of our daily struggle that we acknowledge our weakness and look with the Apostle Paul to the only One who can truly deliver us:

Romans 7:23-25
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

He can be there for me and still allow me to not rely on Him. This doesn't take anything away from God's sovereignty.

I am well aware that the Lord purposes our sanctification through our failures as well as our successes. I do not deny this. What I deny is that the "choice to be saved" is one man makes. Salvation is of God and, as such, something done to us, not with us.

Well, we do have scriptural examples where God has changed his mind.

No you don't. Such a thing is impossible. At best, what you can proffer are examples of anthropomorphic revelation, i.e., God repented, Jesus wept, etc. These are not indicative of mutability on the part of an immutable God. Within God there is never a shade of turning:

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I do not change;

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Take the events of Hezikiah's life. He was told by a prophet of God that he would die. Then Hezekiah cried out to God and the prophet came back and told Hezekiah that God would allow him to live 15 more years. (Read 2 Kings 20:1-4). However, because Hezekiah continued to live his son Manaseh was born and "1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. His mother's name was Hephzibah. 2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites." ( 2 Kings 21:1-2 NIV).

I believe that God knew that Hezekiah would cry out to him and God knew He would show mercy on Hezekiah. I also believe that God knew this wouldn't be the best choice for Hezekiah to make because during the 15 years he lived his son would be born and his son was evil in the sight of the Lord.

That event does not show that God changed His mind about anything. It is given that we may understand our reliance upon God. The birth of Manasseh was according to God's ordained plan.

Does this mean God is not Sovereign? No. But it does show that God lets us do things he knows are not good for us to do.

And why would He allow us to choose what we think is "good" if it is contrary to what is actually good for us?

In the same way he allows people to choose to accept (or not to accept) his gift of salvation.

God does not ask men do they want to be saved. This is a falsehood that is never purported in the Gospel. God saves those He has elected unto salvation, gives them His Spirit, and, in doing so, makes them His children and gives them a desire to serve and obey Him in love.

Then let's not call it "free will" but still understand that God allows us to make choices that he knows are not best for us. Really, is it ever best for man to sin.

While God does not condone sin He has purposed even our sin for His glory. The Word tells us that that all things work to the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. Tell me, have you ever exhibited unrighteous anger toward someone and then been humbled and sought their forgiveness? Can you look at your sin of unrighteousness and acknowledge that, while surely a sin, it sanctifies you and conforms you to the image of God? Does it not show you your weakness, your need for God's grace, your reliance upon Him above all things? Does it not equip you to deal with others who exhibit the same behavior, knowing that what they are experiencing is all too common to our flesh and, in compassion, help you to help them overcome, as we are commanded to do for our brothers and sisters:

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

When Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil do you really think this is what God thought was best for Adam and Eve?

Best in what sense? It was a violation against the preceptive will of God so, obviously, it is sinful and, therefore, not "good" for them. However, it ushered in the Fall of man, the need for a Savior, the resurrection of God's people, the glory of the Godhead, etc. Is that "good?" Do we not have a greater and fuller understanding and appreciation for Christ now that He stands as both our Savior and our Lord?

If it is what was best, why did God forbid them from doing it?

I have no clue why God forbid them to eat of the tree of knowledge, nor do I think the Bible reveals as much.

Sounds like a trick question. Man is by wicked by nature, no matter how good we are we will still be sinners who need a savior. We are never not wicked, but we are justified by the blood of Christ.

And my subtitle under my screen name says just that, i.e., Simul iustus et peccator, at the same time (simultaneously), just and sinner. What I'm asking is, when you act in obedience, in faith, what is it that causes you to do so? Earlier you stated, "God keeps me from sinning in many ways." How does He do this? Surely there is more to it than being "reminded of a Scripture" or having the company of a fellow Christian, yes?

It may be true that the word translated as "world" has many different meanings. However, in this instance there is not sufficient evidence to say that it does not mean all people.

According to whom? Strong's defines the word as it is used in John 3:16 as "believers only":



8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Not to mention, applying a universal connotation to the word kosmos makes the verse nonsensical:

John 3:16
For God so loved all people without exception that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (this being a clearly limited group of people) should not perish but have everlasting life.

*bolded text is my addition

So, according to you, John 3:16 says that God loves everyone so much that He's going to save some of them? Additionally, that means that John 3:17 must read thusly:

For God did not send His Son into all people without exception to condemn all people without exception, but that all people without exception through Him might be saved.

Now, as ridiculous as that my sound (it surely does to me), it means that Christ, this would be the sovereign God we've been speaking of, came with the express intent of saving all people without exception. Does that happen? If not, then Christ failed to accomplish what He intended to accomplish. He failed to accomplish the purpose for which He was sent. That sit right with you? Please do not belabor this by telling me that Christ intended to make salvation possible for all people but it is their choice to be saved that actualizes His work on their behalf. The verse clearly states that the Father sent the Son to save people. According to you, the group of people He purposed to save was all people without exception. Couple that with the fact that we are explicitly told that God accomplishes all that He purposes and nothing can stop Him, we must either believe that something does stop Him or that kosmos, at least in John 3:16,17, doesn't mean all people without exception.

I look forward to your response.

God bless

 

[Albion]

Perhaps that is just it - we are not certain if we have that choice. There is no way for anyone to know if we have a choice by our own personal experience.

OK, but that doesn't make predestination something hard to accept.

l

But passages in the bible that say things like "faith comes by hearing [Romans 10:17]" point to the idea that we have to accept what is being said and that people need to say it so others can believe.

You've already heard the explanation that even the elect have to be given the means by which faith is transmitted to them...and that evangelism serves a purpose even if predestination is true. Therefore, what you say is Biblical all right, but not a determiner in the Predestination vs Free Will debate. It doesn't lean us one way or the other.

If one was predestined to believe then it would not hinge on haveing to hear the word.

Yes it would. We are saved by grace through faith, not without faith.

In Ephesains 2:8-9 I would say the gift is salavation - not faith - and that faith is the way we get to salvation.

Grace is the reason we are allowed by God to receive the gift of saving faith.

Romans 6:23 clears this up by saying that "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Making it clear that the gift is Salvation not faith.

And its not grace as you were contending, either, is it? Yes, salvation is a gift. Faith is a gift that is important because it makes salvation possible. There's no problem here. These ideas are not in conflict with each other.

And in Hebrews we find that"without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

Of course that would be correct, since the people described there are the elect.

It seems clear that faith is something that can be strengthened and something that we can have and use to please God.

That doesn't cut one way or the other on whether predestination is correct, however.

 

[Albion]

It seems as if you think you did a good thing by inaccurately relaying the reformed view of predestination and then got offended when I corrected you,

Whatever, I don't agree that I was inaccurately relaying the reformed view. Moreover, I believe you misunderstood what I was saying. That is what my reply meant.

I don't personally think there's any point in arguing over it, and I certainly am not going to trade insults with you.

My purpose was only to help Brother Steve who obviously has a very difficult time making sense out of the mindset of reformed Christians. Go ahead and heap a lot of theological minutia upon a beginner or quote Bible verse after Bible verse without answering his questions about the LOGIC in the predestination question, and you're not going to wind up being a very effective teacher (as we can see) .

 

[Reformationist]

We contribute nothing to the Gift of Salvation. But we do accept it.

So, when God extends this "gift of salvation" does He intend for it to be accepted? I'm asking if His purpose in doing so is to actually save anyone or is He merely making salvation possible for everyone to whom He extends this "gift of salvation?" If you mean the latter, what causes that gift to be actualized? I'm very curious what your answer will be considering that if you claim it is the response of the recipient that actualizes God's gift of salvation then he surely has reason to boast for his saving response.

I don't really agree with that analogy. I think it is a stretch to say that volunteers can also be slaves. Slaves do what they must - volunteers do what they want.

On the contrary, Scripture Itself tells us that we are a slave to that which we present ourselves:

Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Man sins because man desires that which is sinful. As Jonathan Edwards has taught us, man must always choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the time of choice. He must because we are desire driven creations who, in our unregenerate state, only desire that which is sinful. Therefore, we only choose that which is sinful. By the power of God, we are made anew and our desires are changed. When we become a child of God, by the monergistic power of God, our hearts are given the desire to serve and obey God. Prior to that, we do as the heathen do and we do so willingly:

Eph 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

We are clearly told that we conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and mind. In our unregenerate state, we serve our sinful flesh because we desire that which is sinful. We are in bondage to our fallen nature and that bondage is made ever stronger by the fact that we do not desire to be released from it while dead in our trespasses and sins.

I do believe that God wants these people to believe in Him. That is why I support missionaries to foriegn countries.

This is why it is important to understand the distinction between God's will of disposition and His decretive will. Faith in God, that which you claim God desires for those He never brings His Word to, is the gift of God. If He "wants these people to believe in Him" why then does He not even bring them His Word.

It is by grace that we are saved throught faith - the grace part is what we don't do anything for. we still must have faith.

Faith is the vehicle by which the Lord commutes unto us His saving grace. Tell me, where does the faith come from if not also from God?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

No, he did not predestine it.

He did allow it. He did know it was going to happen.

maybe you just have a more liberal definition of "predestination" than I do.

Could God have stopped the events of 9/11 from coming to pass?

God bless