Predestination??

[Reformationist]

All PEOPLE are predestined to go to Heaven. But the predestination is conditional on each of us accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus.

Who is it that predestined all people and if all people are "predestined to go to Heaven" what does "predestined" mean for surely there are many that don't go to Heaven? Here you claim that predestination is conditional upon accepting salvation. Does that mean that all people accept salvation or is it simply that you mean that for that predestination to have any effect, we must accept it?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Albion]

Who is it that predestined all people and if all people are "predestined to go to Heaven" what does "predestined" mean for surely there are many that don't go to Heaven? Here you claim that predestination is conditional upon accepting salvation. Does that mean that all people accept salvation or is it simply that you mean that for that predestination to have any effect, we must accept it?

Thanks,
God bless

Predestination is based upon God's total control. Predestinarians will argue that if there are ANY conditions, even our acceptance of God's decree, then it is not predestination. It would, in that case, involve something from us, which would represent a denial of God's TOTAL control ("sovereignty").

 

[cygnusx1]

All PEOPLE are predestined to go to Heaven. But the predestination is conditional on each of us accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus.

conditional predestination is illogical .............. why doesn't God just predestine nothing , just let everything happen by chance and human choice ...... then your problem would be solved and Scripture wouldn't need to even mention Predestination ..................... but it does!

 

[Reformationist]

You make some good points.

Thank you very much. You seem to be sincere in your search for knowledge. I enjoy discussing the Gospel with those who are on such a path, even if they end up disagreeing with me.

I certainly believe in the sovereignty of God.

That's good news.

I know that he is in control of all that happens.

That's absolutely true.

Just because God is in control does not mean that he won't allow us to make choices in our lives.

Let me clarify that neither I, nor any of my reformed brethren who have responded in this thread (to my knowledge), espouse fatalism. We are created as volitional creatures and, by our very nature, not only can make choices but, in truth, must make choices. Were we incapable of choosing according to our desires we could not logically be held accountable for the choices we make.

Surely God is capable of assuring everyone be saved

Of course. We are His creation, the clay in His hands.

it is just that God has allowed us to make that choice.

The covenant of grace by which the work of atonement is purposed and accomplished is an agreement between the members of the Godhead to bring unto eternal felicity all He has purposed unto everlasting salvation. The Father has ordained His elect. The Son has appeased the wrath of the Father against the iniquity of His elect by assuming their guilt and suffering their punishment. The Holy Spirit accomplishes their reconciliation through the application of the merit of Christ's work in His monergistic work of regeneration and the dispensation of salvitic faith. We do not "choose" to be saved, nor is our choice to be saved taken into account in God's election. We are the recipients of God's mercy and grace and are redeemed in Christ for the glory of God. Nothing in the Bible states that our salvation is the product of our choice.

Just like we choose to sin. God has the power to keep me from sinning and there are times when I am only kept from sinning by the grace of God. But there are also times when I still chose to sin.

Have you not the power to determine when you will or will not sin? You acknowledge that God can, and does, keep you from sinning. Is your ability to sin restrained by the grace of God such that you become, essentially, incapable of working contrary to what God has determined by the dispensation of His grace? You see, you cannot have it both ways. Either the grace of the Almighty is, itself, capable of ensuring that the will of God come to pass, or, you are sovereign and have the power to make the grace of God to no effect.

It is not God's perfect will that I sin but I still do it.

The qualifier of "perfect" is unnecessary in discussions of the grace of a perfect God as it has no intent of distinguishing it from the imperfect will of God. That said, there are different intentions in Scripture when the will of God is spoken of. There is God's decretive will, by which all things must necessarily come to pass. There is God's perceptive will, which refers to His precepts, i.e., His laws. And, there is God's will of disposition, which refers to what is pleasing to our Lord.

God can be sovereign over all and still allow us to have a free will. The two are not in conflict.

Well, that would depend on how you define those terms. Do you believe that the freely wrought choices of man can ever cause God to have to change what He has sovereignly ordained in eternity? If not, how "free" is man's will? Can he ever choose contrary to what God has decreed? If so, then he, not God, is sovereign. Is such a will truly "free?" I agree that man makes choices. In fact, I, and all other reformed Christians, acknowledge that man must make choices, for he is a volitional creature and the ability to choose according to one's desires is the mark of such a creature. However, to say that man's will is "free" is misleading on many fronts and requires much elaboration to avoid purporting ideas that do violence to the sovereign nature of God.

Okay, but niether of these say that God wants people to be wicked.

Again, that depends on how you systematically approach issues of God's sovereignty. Tell me, what causes a man to not be wicked?

You did read the words "What if" didn't you?

Of course. What's your point? Hopefully you don't intend to presume that the Apostle was suggesting a hypothetical scenario.

what part of "for God so loved the world..." (John 3:16) is excluding...just continue reading through vs 17 and again it says the "...the world might be saved..."

Well, is the "world," i.e., all people without exception? Additionally, the verse in question is not much a reference to the extent of the atonement as it is a revelation on the efficacy of the atonement. The valuable information revealed in this misunderstood verse is that Christ's sacrifice ensures that believers will, without exception, inherit eternal life. Believers. Not everyone. Despite this, you, and many others, seem to wish to apply a universal meaning to the word "world," which has approximately twelve different meanings in Scripture, though the context itself does not call for such an application. There are many passages in which the same word, kosmos, is used in a clearly limited fashion. The clear hole in the "for God so loved the world, i.e., everyone without exception" theory is that it makes something other than the love of God the pivitol agent in man's redemption. If God loves everyone without exception with the same love, what separates those who will end up saved from those that don't? If you can answer that question without attributing it to something that man provides (which would be a boast) we can move forward to investigating whether the linguistic or contextual environment calls for an universal interpretation.

God bless

 

[Defcon]

I agree. But this statement is true without predestination. Assuming predestination just muddies the water.

No, it is understanding God's word. It only muddies the water when we want to think we contributed something to our salvation.

this is not a complete arguement - you say that we don't have free will and that we sin voluntarily - both cannot be true. if we sin voluntarily don't we also do acts of righteousness voluntarily?

Without the help of the Holy Spirit? I think not. And yes, you can be a slave to something and do it voluntarily. Example, a drug addict that is a slave to the addiction but also wants to continue doing the drug. The slavery is not removed and he does it voluntarily.

I do agree that God's judgement will be a holy and righteous one.

If you believe that, then how do you explain how God will send those to hell who never hear God's word (i.e. third world countries) if His will is to save each and every individual?

Predestination doesn't have to have anything to do with belief. Unless you say that we only believe because we are predestined to - and that statement is not arguable. Belief is either a choice or it is not a choice. If it is a choice we are not predestined if it is not a choice we are predestined but then anything we do is irrelevant.

Faith is not the work of man it is the work of God (Hebrews 12:2; Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[Reformationist]

Predestination is based upon God's total control. Predestinarians will argue that if there are ANY conditions, even our acceptance of God's decree, then it is not predestination. It would, in that case, involve something from us, which would represent a denial of God's TOTAL control ("sovereignty").

I have no idea why you would make such a generalized, and inaccurate statement about those who hold to a view of sovereign election. God could have chosen to condition His monergistic work of foreordination upon anything He desired. He simply didn't choose to base it on anything He found in man.

God bless

 

[linssue55]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Stage Two Of Faith-Rest: Apply a Doctrinal Rationale

A. Foreknowledge: God thought about you in eternity past

B. Predestination: God designed a plan for you in eternity past

C. Election: God chose you for the privileged part of His plan

D. Justification: God can bless you now because you posses His righteousness

E. Glorification: God can bless you forever in heaven

Romans 8:29,30: "For [we know that] whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Christ] might be the firstborn among many brethren. And whom He predestined, these same ones He also elected to privilege, and whom He elected to privilege, these same ones He also justified [declared righteous], and whom he justified, these same ones He also glorified."

 

[seekingpurity047]

Let me ask this question, then. Did God predestine the events of 9/11?

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[seekingpurity047]

All PEOPLE are predestined to go to Heaven. But the predestination is conditional on each of us accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus.

]

If that were the case... then God isn't all powerful. We are, therefore, more sovereign then God, making us, then, more powerful than He is. Blasphemy.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[seekingpurity047]

The verse you quote does not support your claim. Please show me where God tells us that he loves "the Church" more than the people that make up the church.


Bad analogy - the church is the Bride of Christ - but the rest of the world is not comparable to women who are not your wife.



Okay, then you don't think that people are predestined?



I did mention Pharoah in an earlier post to illustrate that God does harden the hearts of some people for his glory...did you miss that one?



I agree that the bible says we should tell others the Gospel of Christ. My question was that if people are predestined what is the point of evangilism.

Um... that verse does support my claim. Christ gave Himself up for who? THE CHURCH! Why? Because He loved her MORE than He loved the others. Read the bible in greek as well, there are two words that are used for love, notably Agape (unconditional, saving love, the kind of love that we should feel toward, ie. our wives, or our children, or our parents) and Phileo (brotherly love, the kind of love that we should feel toward everyone else). Christ loves (AGAPE) the Church, and He loves (Phileo) the reprobate/rest of the world who are not part of the Church, and who will never be part of the Church. By the way, the rest of the world IS comparable to the women who are not my wife, and the Church is comparable to the woman who is my wife (if i had one). Notice the analogy that Paul gives in the verses, read it again.

I do believe that some people are predestined. This predestination is NECESSARY for us to be able to go to heaven. Sheesh! But, this does not take away the fact that, if it were not for that predestination, we DESERVE to be doomed for hell.

The point of evangelism is that, by spreading the word to the world, the ELECT will understand it and will believe. Do I have to point it out to you? As i mentioned, it's a matter of cause and effect. Allow me to give you an analogy set out by John Piper about Prayer and Predestination.

Prayer and Predestination

A Conversation Between Prayerful and Prayerless

February 14, 1996

Prayerless: I understand that you believe in the providence of God. Is that right?

Prayerful: Yes.

Prayerless: Does that mean you believe, like the Heidelberg Catechism says, that nothing comes about by chance but only by God's design and plan?

Prayerful: Yes, I believe that's what the Bible teaches.

Prayerless: Then why do you pray?

Prayerful: I don't see the problem. Why shouldn't we pray?

Prayerless: Well, if God ordains and controls everything, then what he plans from of old will come to pass, right?

Prayerful: Yes.

Prayerless: So it's going to come to pass whether you pray or not, right.

Prayerful: That depends on whether God ordained for it to come to pass in answer to prayer. If God predestined that something happen in answer to prayer, it won't happen without prayer.

Prayerless: Wait a minute, this is confusing. Are you saying that every answer to prayer is predestined or not?

Prayerful: Yes, it is. It's predestined as an answer to prayer.

Prayerless: So if the prayer doesn't happen, the answer doesn't happen?

Prayerful: That's right.

Prayerless: So the event is contingent on our praying for it to happen?

Prayerful: Yes. I take it that by contingent you mean prayer is a real reason that the event happens, and without the prayer the event would not happen.

Prayerless: Yes that's what I mean. But how can an event be contingent on my prayer and still be eternally fixed and predestined by God?

Prayerful: Because your prayer is as fixed as the predestined answer.

Prayerless: Explain.

Prayerful: It's not complicated. God providentially ordains all events. God never ordains an event without a cause. The cause is also an event. Therefore, the cause is also foreordained. So you cannot say that the event will happen if the cause doesn't because God has ordained otherwise. The event will happen if the cause happens.

Prayerless: So what you are saying is that answers to prayer are always ordained as effects of prayer which is one of the causes, and that God predestined the answer only as an effect of the cause.

Prayerful: That's right. And since both the cause and the effect are ordained together you can't say that the effect will happen even if the cause doesn't because God doesn't ordain effects without causes.

Prayerless: Can you give some illustrations?

Prayerful: Sure. If God predestines that I die of a bullet wound, then I will not die if no bullet is fired. If God predestines that I be healed by surgery, then if there is no surgery, I will not be healed. If God predestines heat to fill my home by fire in the furnace, then if there is no fire, there will be no heat. Would you say, "Since God predestines that the sun be bright, it will be bright whether there is fire in the sun or not"?

Prayerless: No.

Prayerful: I agree. Why not?

Prayerless: Because the brightness of the sun comes from the fire.

Prayerful: Right. That's the way I think about the answers to prayer. They are the brightness, and prayer is the fire. God has established the universe so that in larger measure it runs by prayer, the same way he has established brightness so that in larger measure it happens by fire. Doesn't that make sense?

Prayerless: I think it does.

Prayerful: Then let's stop thinking up problems and go with what the Scriptures say. Ask and you will receive. You have not because you ask not.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/prayer/prayer_pred.html

I hope that you actually read that, it is comparable to evangelism.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[mlqurgw]

I am a Calvinist and this is why I preach the Gospel.

1. I believe with all my heart that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.
2.I do truly love people and desire that they come to know Christ.
3. I do not know who the elect are and am extememly thankful that I don't.
4. God commanded me to preach the gospel.
5. I know for sure that there are some who will hear it and believe.
Given these reasons, predestination in no way keeps me from preaching the Gospel. Actually because of predestination I am more sure of there being a result to my preaching than those who preach and hope someone wiill respond.

 

[Albion]

Predestination is based upon God's total control. Predestinarians will argue that if there are ANY conditions, even our acceptance of God's decree, then it is not predestination. It would, in that case, involve something from us, which would represent a denial of God's TOTAL control ("sovereignty").

I have no idea why you would make such a generalized, and inaccurate statement about those who hold to a view of sovereign election. God could have chosen to condition His monergistic work of foreordination upon anything He desired. He simply didn't choose to base it on anything He found in man. God bless

Well, on the one hand I'm trying to explain something to a poster who can't understand the first thing about the subject, and that opens me up to being attacked by another who thinks I'm too "generalized." So, no good effort goes unpunished, I guess.

Besides, I am not certain that God COULD deny his own nature (as you suggest).

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Besides, I am not certain that God COULD deny his own nature (as you suggest).

Are you saying that God could deny his own nature? or not?

 

[Albion]

Are you saying that God could deny his own nature? or not?

First, bear in mind that I have not staked out a position in this debate for myself (Predestination vs Free Will). I merely tried to point out to one who couldn't see any sense to Predestinarianism at all that there is an argument to be made...by scripture, history, and logic, as I said. I also said that there is a sensible argument that can be made for Free Will, but that one asn't in need of being pursued since my friend here was already of that mind.

One of the underpinnings of the belief in Predestination is the sovereignty of God. If God is sovereign, can he let much of the universe just be "up in the air" as to how it's doing? Can we say that he can indeed do this on the basis of his being all-powerful and so can do "anything he wants?" But if one says "yes," how then can God not BE all powerful, which implies being in charge?

Logically, he can't. And if he is in charge, he is in charge of his tremendous plan of salvation, implying that he cannot let US be the ones who decide our futures, not even partially so.

So, no, I was saying that God could not deny his own nature. I'd add that this still leaves room for arguing what that nature is exactly, but I'd reject the idea that "he's the boss so can do whatever he wants," even something disorderly and which could, in theory, defy his own intentions.

 

[mlqurgw]

First, bear in mind that I have not staked out a position in this debate for myself (Predestination vs Free Will). I merely tried to point out to one who couldn't see any sense to Predestinarianism at all that there is an argument to be made...by scripture, history, and logic, as I said. I also said that there is a sensible argument that can be made for Free Will, but that one asn't in need of being pursued since my friend here was already of that mind.

One of the underpinnings of the belief in Predestination is the sovereignty of God. If God is sovereign, can he let much of the universe just be "up in the air" as to how it's doing? Can we say that he can indeed do this on the basis of his being all-powerful and so can do "anything he wants?" But if one says "yes," how then can God not BE all powerful, which implies being in charge?

Logically, he can't. And if he is in charge, he is in charge of his tremendous plan of salvation, implying that he cannot let US be the ones who decide our futures, not even partially so.

So, no, I was saying that God could not deny his own nature. I'd add that this still leaves room for arguing what that nature is exactly, but I'd reject the idea that "he's the boss so can do whatever he wants," even something disorderly and which could, in theory, defy his own intentions.

Please don't take this as an attack I only desire clarification on something you said.

So, no, I was saying that God could not deny his own nature. I'd add that this still leaves room for arguing what that nature is exactly,

This would seem to imply that the two camps believe in different Gods. Not that I am disagreeing with such a view but only ask if that would be a logical conclusion to such a statement.

 

[Albion]

Please don't take this as an attack I only desire clarification on something you said.

Not to be concerned. I did not think it was meant as an attack, but since the subject is tricky for everyone, I wanted to clarify rather than just snap back a yes or no answer.

This would seem to imply that the two camps believe in different Gods.

I don't see that. The two merely are in disagreement about how the one and only God they both acknowledge goes about his business.

We really can't know that for certain, and I don't think God has seen fit to explain everything to us about all that he does or plans. Nor does it matter much in our daily lives whether Predestination or Free Will is the answer since we must react to God and live our lives essentially in the same way whichever side of this issue we are on.

 

[mlqurgw]

Not to be concerned. I did not think it was meant as an attack, but since the subject is tricky for everyone, I wanted to clarify rather than just snap back a yes or no answer.



I don't see that. The two merely are in disagreement about how the one and only God they both acknowledge goes about his business.

We really can't know that for certain, and I don't think God has seen fit to explain everything to us about all that he does or plans. Nor does it matter much in our daily lives whether Predestination or Free Will is the answer since we must react to God and live our lives essentially in the same way whichever side of this issue we are on.

While I fully understand what you are saying, does not the word nature imply that which makes Him God? Am I being too nit picky?

Edit for clarification of my intentions:

I was once told by a preacher I highly respect to be careful what you say and how you say it. Someone will take it and run with it. I don't always follow that advice myself but it did come to mind when I read your statement. I am only seeking to pass it on.

 

[Albion]

While I fully understand what you are saying, does not the word nature imply that which makes Him God? Am I being too nit picky?

Well, I don't think that "nature" ends with that but also includes all that he is about. The dictionary calls it "the peculiar combination of qualities."

 

[mlqurgw]

Well, I don't think that "nature" ends with that but also includes all that he is about. The dictionary calls it "the peculiar combination of qualities."

Please see my edit above.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Let me clarify that neither I, nor any of my reformed brethren who have responded in this thread (to my knowledge), espouse fatalism. We are created as volitional creatures and, by our very nature, not only can make choices but, in truth, must make choices. Were we incapable of choosing according to our desires we could not logically be held accountable for the choices we make.

This sounds like you are saying that we at least have to choose to sin so that we can "logically be held accountable..." If that is true then it also follows that we would also have to choose to accept God's gift of salvation. Then it is not predestination.

We do not "choose" to be saved, nor is our choice to be saved taken into account in God's election. We are the recipients of God's mercy and grace and are redeemed in Christ for the glory of God. Nothing in the Bible states that our salvation is the product of our choice.

This seems contrary to your previous point. But I would agree that we don't "choose" to be saved in the most literal sense. Salvation is something that is given to us - a gift - you can't choose to get a gift. However, you can choose to accept it or not.

Have you not the power to determine when you will or will not sin? You acknowledge that God can, and does, keep you from sinning. Is your ability to sin restrained by the grace of God such that you become, essentially, incapable of working contrary to what God has determined by the dispensation of His grace? You see, you cannot have it both ways. Either the grace of the Almighty is, itself, capable of ensuring that the will of God come to pass, or, you are sovereign and have the power to make the grace of God to no effect.

God keeps me from sinning in many ways - there are times in my life when I get caught up in the world and am surrounded by temptation - during these times God has often reminded me of scripture or sent another Christian to stand with me so that I am capable of resisting the temptatino. Othertimes, I sin, and God allows it.

I am not trying to say that I can override God's will. But there is nothing that keeps God from allowing me to make my own choices. He can be there for me and still allow me to not rely on Him. This doesn't take anything away from God's sovereignty.

Well, that would depend on how you define those terms. Do you believe that the freely wrought choices of man can ever cause God to have to change what He has sovereignly ordained in eternity?

Well, we do have scriptural examples where God has changed his mind. Take the events of Hezikiah's life. He was told by a prophet of God that he would die. Then Hezekiah cried out to God and the prophet came back and told Hezekiah that God would allow him to live 15 more years. (Read 2 Kings 20:1-4). However, because Hezekiah continued to live his son Manaseh was born and "1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. His mother's name was Hephzibah. 2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites." ( 2 Kings 21:1-2 NIV).

I believe that God knew that Hezekiah would cry out to him and God knew He would show mercy on Hezekiah. I also believe that God knew this wouldn't be the best choice for Hezekiah to make because during the 15 years he lived his son would be born and his son was evil in the sight of the Lord. Does this mean God is not Sovereign? No. But it does show that God lets us do things he knows are not good for us to do. In the same way he allows people to choose to accept (or not to accept) his gift of salvation.

However, to say that man's will is "free" is misleading on many fronts and requires much elaboration to avoid purporting ideas that do violence to the sovereign nature of God.

Then let's not call it "free will" but still understand that God allows us to make choices that he knows are not best for us. Really, is it ever best for man to sin. When Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil do you really think this is what God thought was best for Adam and Eve? If it is what was best, why did God forbid them from doing it?

Again, that depends on how you systematically approach issues of God's sovereignty. Tell me, what causes a man to not be wicked?

Sounds like a trick question. Man is by wicked by nature, no matter how good we are we will still be sinners who need a savior. We are never not wicked, but we are justified by the blood of Christ.

Well, is the "world," i.e., all people without exception? Additionally, the verse in question is not much a reference to the extent of the atonement as it is a revelation on the efficacy of the atonement. The valuable information revealed in this misunderstood verse is that Christ's sacrifice ensures that believers will, without exception, inherit eternal life. Believers. Not everyone.

It may be true that the word translated as "world" has many different meanings. However, in this instance there is not sufficient evidence to say that it does not mean all people.