Predestination??

[BrotherSteve]

It's an elusive concept and maybe I wasn't good enough in trying to explain it. It's not "the opportunity" exactly, but that if we believe Scripture to the extent that we believe we are saved by Faith, we are not saved by God choosing us in the absence of Faith. Scripture also tells us that Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, so he who is elected to salvation has to have the Faith and that can come only by it being brought to him (evangelism).

Still - in the context of predestination - there is no place for evangelism. It would be just as easy to say that all people who are predestined to believe will walk into church on sunday moring and make a profession of faith after hearing a weak sermon. If one is truly predestined then even if there was no evangelism they would still (by fate) come to know Jesus.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Well, you've surely had a few of us here doing our best to explain it and the other questions about Predestination that you've raised. I think it's time for you to respond directly to those answers, not just say "so far I have been unable to find someone who can clearly explain it."

I do appreciate your responses - my comment was not intended to offend anyone. Some of what has been brought up has been very useful. I try not to argue with points that seem valid and scrpturally sound.

What don't you agree with? What do you find unclear about our explanations? Why not? I, for example, gave you two answers to the question of "Why evangelism?" that are not original with me but standard answers, and to that you merely repeated your question.

I didn't mean to repeat my question about evangelism. It still seems that there are two confilcting ideas with predestination and evangelism.

1. God has predestined people to be saved or not to be saved. By the very definition of predestine - to decree or determine beforehand - it means that regardless of what happens those who are predestined to be saved will be saved.

2. Evangelism is done to tell people about God so they can believe and be saved.

These two ideas are in conflict to one another - both cannot be true.

The other idea that you broght up in another post is basically that people who are predestined will live good lives because they are predestined to. Then they tell others about God because it is a command. This idea is not something that can really be argued with.

 

[ArchangelGabriel]

Still - in the context of predestination - there is no place for evangelism. It would be just as easy to say that all people who are predestined to believe will walk into church on sunday moring and make a profession of faith after hearing a weak sermon. If one is truly predestined then even if there was no evangelism they would still (by fate) come to know Jesus.

so why cant it be that all the people who accept Christ though a evangilistic ______(something) be the ones who were pre-destined to go to heaven?

 

[ArchangelGabriel]

All PEOPLE are predestined to go to Heaven. But the predestination is conditional on each of us accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus.

sorry but pre-destination is not a conditional thing

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Still - in the context of predestination - there is no place for evangelism. It would be just as easy to say that all people who are predestined to believe will walk into church on sunday moring and make a profession of faith after hearing a weak sermon. If one is truly predestined then even if there was no evangelism they would still (by fate) come to know Jesus.

Which is why there are so many believers out there who are against the evangelistic movement. If we are predestined, what is the point of evangelism?

 

[California Tim]

I don't think they are that clear - and so far I have been unable to find someone who can clearly explain it.

You don't need anyone else to explain it. The Bible speaks for itself. You will understand it by the grace of the Holy Spirit if you pray about it, read it and trust God to open up the passage for you. It's not really rocket science - if it were, then we would not need the Holy Spirit but education for discernment . Try not to filter through your own or others' bias when you read Romans 8 and 9 along with other related passages on the sovereignty of God and His wisdom concerning predestination.

Like the old quote, I once heard: "I not only believe every word in the Bible is true, I even believe the leather is genuine."

 

[AnthonyE1778]

You don't need anyone else to explain it. The Bible speaks for itself. You will understand it by the grace of the Holy Spirit if you pray about it, read it and trust God to open up the passage for you. It's not really rocket science - if it were, then we would not need the Holy Spirit but education for discernment . Try not to filter through your own or others' bias when you read Romans 8 and 9 along with other related passages on the sovereignty of God and His wisdom concerning predestination.

Like the old quote, I once heard: "I not only believe every word in the Bible is true, I even believe the leather is genuine."

I agree with basically every point that you have here. It would be easier to understand, however, if we didn't have so many different theories and ways of interpreting the Bible.

 

[Sentry]

Watering down scripture to fit your theology is not a theology from God - it is man-made. Any discerning person knows that this scripture does not fit your generalized explanation.

Sorry but I know what I am talking about on this one.

Try refuting it and see.

 

[Defcon]

Let's defuse all this senseless talk about how evangelism should be stopped if predestination is true.

1) No one knows who the elect are, therefore the gospel should be preached to all men so that those God has called will hear the word and believe (Romans 10:14-15)

2) The presence of free-will is fiction - we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. However, using Martin Luther's summary on this topic, those who are destined for destruction do not sin against their will but do it voluntarily as we all do in our sinful nature. Thus, the responsibility of man for his own sinfulness. Will God not righteously judge men who have heard the gospel and turn from it (as we all would if we as the elect were not enabled to come to Him - John 6:65)? Let's not forget that God's judgement will be a holy and righteous judgement.

3) In God predestining believers to salvation, does that preclude them from believing on Christ? Jesus is the author of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), but our justification is through faith - thus the necessity of it. Even though man is passive in salvation, this does not make parts of salvation unnecessary (Christ's atonement, faith). When God predestined that the world would be created - did it occur instantly? Has He not predestined the final judgement? Has this already taken place since it was predestined? Of course the answer to these are "No."

 

[Defcon]

Sorry but I know what I am talking about on this one.

Try refuting it and see.

2 questions:

1) Refute what?

2) "I know what I am talking about on this one on this one" - as opposed to the other conversations with you where you didn't know what you were talking about?

 

[Sentry]

Let's defuse all this senseless talk about how evangelism should be stopped if predestination is true.

1) No one knows who the elect are, therefore the gospel should be preached to all men so that those God has called will hear the word and believe (Romans 10:14-15)

Yes we do know who the elect are. The elect are those who are Christians, those who are united with the Chosen One.

2) The presence of free-will is fiction - we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. However, using Martin Luther's summary on this topic, those who are destined for destruction do not sin against their will but do it voluntarily as we all do in our sinful nature. Thus, the responsibility of man for his own sinfulness. Will God not righteously judge men who have heard the gospel and turn from it (as we all would if we as the elect were not enabled to come to Him - John 6:65)? Let's not forget that God's judgement will be a holy and righteous judgement.

I think you should read Romans 6:9-10.

3) In God predestining believers to salvation,

If you mean, God determining who would become a Christian.. the Bible says no such thing, not at Eph 1:4-5, not at Romans 8:29-30, not at Acts 13:48 or anywhere else.

does that preclude them from believing on Christ? Jesus is the author of our faith (Hebrews 12:2),

That does not mean that Jesus made you begin to believe. He is the author of our faith in the sense that he is the author of Christianity.

 

[Axion]

Few have exposed the folly of predestination better than this:

If creation be the way and means through which God willed the execution of the decree of his reprobation, he was more inclined to will the act of reprobation than that of creation; and he consequently derived greater satisfaction from the act of condemning certain of his innocent creatures, than in the act of their creation.

This Predestination is inconsistent with the Nature and Properties of Sin in two ways:
1. Because sin is called "disobedience" and "rebellion," neither of which terms can possibly apply to any person who by a preceding divine decree is placed under an unavoidable necessity of sinning.
This Predestination destroys grace, Because the representations of grace which the scriptures contain, are such as describe it capable of "being resisted, (Acts, 7:51,) and received in vain;" (2 Corinthians 6:1,) and that it is possible for man to avoid yielding his assent to it; and to refuse all co-operation with it. (Hebrews 12:15; Matthew 23:37; Luke 7:30.) While, on the contrary, this Predestination affirms, that grace is a certain irresistible force and operation.

From the same position we might also infer, that God is the only sinner. For man, who is impelled by an irresistible force to commit sin, (that is, to perpetrate some deed that has been prohibited,) cannot be said to sin himself.

It denies, that Christ is the meritorious cause, that again obtained for us the salvation which we had lost, by placing him as only a subordinate cause of that salvation which had been already foreordained, and thus only a minister and instrument to apply that salvation unto us.

It takes away all that most salutary fear and trembling with which we are commanded to work out our own salvation. (Philippians 2:12) for it states "that he who is elected and believes, cannot sin with that full and entire willingness with which sin is committed by the ungodly; and that they cannot either totally or finally fall away from faith or grace."

This doctrine inverts the order of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For in the Gospel God requires repentance and faith on the part of man, by promising to him life everlasting, if he consent to become a convert and a believer. (Mark 1:15; 16:16.) But it is stated in this decree of Predestination, that it is God’s absolute will, to bestow salvation on certain particular men, and that he willed at the same time absolutely to give those very individuals repentance and faith, by means of an irresistible force, because it was his will and pleasure to save them.

The Gospel says, "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life." (John 3:16.) But this doctrine declares; "that God so loved those whom he had absolutely elected to eternal life, as to give his son to them alone, and by an irresistible force to produce within them faith on him."

This Predestination is in open hostility to the ministry of the Gospel.
1. For if God by an irresistible power quicken him who is dead in trespasses and sins, no man can be a minister and "a laborer together with God," (1 Corinthians 3:9,) nor can the word preached by man be the instrument of grace and of the Spirit, any more than a creature could have been an instrument of grace in the first creation, or a dispenser of that grace in the resurrection of the body from the dead.

But this doctrine inverts this order and mutual relation in two ways:
(1.) The one is when it states, that God wills absolutely to save certain particular men, without having had in that his intention the least reference or regard to their obedience. This is the manner in which it places the love of God to man before his love of righteousness, and lays down the position — that God loves men (as such) more than righteousness, and evinces a stronger aversion to their misery than to their sin and disobedience.

(2.) The other is when it asserts, on the contrary, that God wills absolutely to damn certain particular men without manifesting in his decree any consideration of their disobedience. In this manner it detracts from his love to the creature that which belongs to it; while it teaches, that God hates the creature, without any cause or necessity derived from his love of righteousness and his hatred of iniquity. In which case, it is not true, "that sin is the primary object of God’s hatred, and its only meritorious cause." The great influence and potency which this consideration possesses in subverting the foundation of religion, may be appropriately described by the following simile: Suppose a son to say, "My father is such a great lover of righteousness and equity, that, notwithstanding I am his beloved son, he would disinherit me if I were found disobedient to him. Obedience, therefore, is a duty which I must sedulously cultivate, and which is highly incumbent upon me, if I wish to be his heir." Suppose another son to say: "My father’s love for me is so great, that he is absolutely resolved to make me his heir. There is, therefore, no necessity for my earnestly striving to yield him obedience; for, according to his unchangeable will, I shall become his heir. Nay, he will by an irresistible force draw me to obey him, rather than not suffer me to be made his heir." But such reasoning as the latter is diametrically opposed to the doctrine contained in the following words of John the Baptist:
"And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father: For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Matthew 3:9.)
Arminius: Sentiments.

 

[sawdust]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

The scripture states clearly that God planned (predestined) us to be "conformed to the image of the Son". It does not say He planned to save us nor does it say anywhere in scripture that He plans for some to end up in hell.

The doctrine of predestination applies to believers only and it is in regards to what they will be not where they will be.

peace

 

[Reformationist]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined.

God is a sovereign God and from Him flows all that comes to pass. Romans 8:28-30 does not simply relay that "all Christians were predestined." By virtue of necessary exclusion, it also relays that whomsoever God did not predestine are effectually left to incur His righteous and deserved wrath.

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven;

The idea that God has effectually determined certain parts of His eternal plan is incongruous with the biblical account as it introduces ideas that must be dealt with because such an idea runs contrary to His sovereign nature. For example, if we say that God only predestined certain pivitol people to be saved then that requires that we either acknowledge that God is ambivilant regarding everyone else's salvation, or, that God is incapable of assuring that they be saved. Neither is in keeping with the nature of the God that is revealed in Holy Scripture. Additionally, to say that God predestined all that shall come to pass regarding Saul, or any other individual, requires that we also acknowledge that God is sovereignly governing every other thing that Saul would encounter. Of course He does do this, but it blows a large hole in the theory that God is only sovereign in His dealings with certain parts of His creation. In short, if God predestined that you be saved, how could He assure that the things you encounter would not lead to your eternal death if He was not also sovereignly governing them? Logically, the two are inseparable.

that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell.

To this I offer the irreplaceable words of Scripture:

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:21-24
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Scripture is abundantly clear on this issue. Some, for their own selfish reasons, choose to simply ignore that God is providential in all matters, even the reprobation of those He has left to their sins.

Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

God does not predestine His loved ones to hell. On the contrary, all whom God loves are predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Those passages you speak of do not indicate that the salvitic love of God is extended to all without exception. We should not think so lightly of the love of God as to imply that it is given to someone and does not result in their eternal salvation.

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Again, you speak contrary to logic. It is the very predestination of God that makes evangelistic work reliable, for such works do not depend on our feeble methods but, rather, upon the appointment of God. We go in to the world and preach with power knowing that God will gather His elect through the dispensation of His Word. All who think that predestination makes evangelism moot fail to understand that it is God's sovereign ordination that gives us faith that our efforts shall not be in vain. Those who decry the biblical message of the foreordination of God must, in vain, depend upon themselves for the fruit that shall come from their labors.

God bless

 

[BrotherSteve]

Let's defuse all this senseless talk about how evangelism should be stopped if predestination is true.

1) No one knows who the elect are, therefore the gospel should be preached to all men so that those God has called will hear the word and believe (Romans 10:14-15)

I agree. But this statement is true without predestination. Assuming predestination just muddies the water.

2) The presence of free-will is fiction - we are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. However, using Martin Luther's summary on this topic, those who are destined for destruction do not sin against their will but do it voluntarily as we all do in our sinful nature. Thus, the responsibility of man for his own sinfulness. Will God not righteously judge men who have heard the gospel and turn from it (as we all would if we as the elect were not enabled to come to Him - John 6:65)? Let's not forget that God's judgement will be a holy and righteous judgement.

this is not a complete arguement - you say that we don't have free will and that we sin voluntarily - both cannot be true. if we sin voluntarily don't we also do acts of righteousness voluntarily?

I do agree that God's judgement will be a holy and righteous one.

3) In God predestining believers to salvation, does that preclude them from believing on Christ?

Predestination doesn't have to have anything to do with belief. Unless you say that we only believe because we are predestined to - and that statement is not arguable. Belief is either a choice or it is not a choice. If it is a choice we are not predestined if it is not a choice we are predestined but then anything we do is irrelevant.

 

[BrotherSteve]

so why cant it be that all the people who accept Christ though a evangilistic ______(something) be the ones who were pre-destined to go to heaven?

could be and could not be, that is not something that can be argued.

 

[BrotherSteve]

Like the old quote, I once heard: "I not only believe every word in the Bible is true, I even believe the leather is genuine."

I like the quote. We still need to study the srictpures, however.

 

[Reformationist]

My question is exactly that - is it good theology to say that God has already predestined people for either salvation or damnation.

"Good" in what sense? If it is biblical, regardless of whether we fully understand it or agree with God's authority to do so, it is "good."

I understand that God can (and does) harden the hearts of some people (Pharo for example) so that he can be glorified.

God is glorified in the entirity of His eternal plan and, just for the record, God's method of "hardening" is passive. He does not introduce new evil into the heart of a wicked man that he should despise God. God merely removes the restraints He has placed on the wicked nature of unregenerate man that his true disposition, and thus enmity, would be further revealed.

But Jesus died so that all people might have salvation.

Again, this is an unfortunate misinterpretation of Scripture. Jesus did not die so that anything might come to pass. Jesus' death ensures that all for whom He died will inherit eternal life.

If God predestined some people to go to Hell then Jesus died so that some people might go to Heaven not all people. I don't think that is biblical.

The Bible is explicit that all for whom Christ died will be redeemed and that He will lose none of them. Therefore, if someone does suffer eternal perdition, we can either assume that Christ did lose them, an unbiblical notion, or that they were never His to begin with. Then, in the proper mode of understanding the implicit in light of the explicit, we learn that those who go out from the family of God, never to return, were ordained to do so that it may be revealed that they were never truly of the family of God.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

To say that there is an absolute select number of people that God predestined to be saved and go to heaven before time even began is extremely Calvinistic. L in the TULIP stands for Limited Atonement. I do believe that we all make our own choices but that God knows what choice that we are going to make so in essence he knows who is going to heaven and who is going to become saved or not and from that one could derive that God chose believers.

And the inescapable downside to embracing the view that God chooses people based on what He knows they will choose is that it directly violates Scripture which plainly states that it is not of him who runs or wills but of God that shows mercy. This clearly shows that our choices are not the basis for God's choice of us, for if it were, all believers would have something of which to boast, which is also something we are admonished to refrain from doing, as our salvation is wholly of God and we the undeserving mass.

God bless

 

[BrotherSteve]

You make some good points. I certainly believe in the sovereignty of God. I know that he is in control of all that happens. Just because God is in control does not mean that he won't allow us to make choices in our lives.

The idea that God has effectually determined certain parts of His eternal plan is incongruous with the biblical account as it introduces ideas that must be dealt with because such an idea runs contrary to His sovereign nature. For example, if we say that God only predestined certain pivitol people to be saved then that requires that we either acknowledge that God is ambivilant regarding everyone else's salvation, or, that God is incapable of assuring that they be saved.

Surely God is capable of assuring everyone be saved - it is just that God has allowed us to make that choice. Just like we choose to sin. God has the power to keep me from sinning and there are times when I am only kept from sinning by the grace of God. But there are also times when I still chose to sin. It is not God's perfect will that I sin but I still do it.

Of course He does do this, but it blows a large hole in the theory that God is only sovereign in His dealings with certain parts of His creation. In short, if God predestined that you be saved, how could He assure that the things you encounter would not lead to your eternal death if He was not also sovereignly governing them? Logically, the two are inseparable.

God can be sovereign over all and still allow us to have a free will. The two are not in conflict.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:21-24
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Okay, but niether of these say that God wants people to be wicked. You did read the words "What if" didn't you?

God does not predestine His loved ones to hell. On the contrary, all whom God loves are predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Those passages you speak of do not indicate that the salvitic love of God is extended to all without exception. We should not think so lightly of the love of God as to imply that it is given to someone and does not result in their eternal salvation.

what part of "for God so loved the world..." (John 3:16) is excluding...just continue reading through vs 17 and again it says the "...the world might be saved..."