Predestination??

[BrotherSteve]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

 

[Sentry]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

That is a common but very naive interpretation you heard. It happens because people tend not to read things in context or follow the flow of Paul's argument in Romans.

What Paul meant was:

For those Jews God had known in the past, he predestined to be conformed to the death and resurrection of Jesus when Jesus came to them.

It is not a statement about God choosing who his people would be but a statement about what he provided for his people the Jews.

 

[Albion]

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell.

If that's his plan, then that's his plan. IOW, we readily warm to the idea that we can be predestined to salvation without our intrinsic worth being measured, but we don't like it when God exercises the same arbitrariness in the case of those not predestined to salvation. Is this logical, good theology...or just a human way of thinking?

Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

Dunno. Those who believe in predestination do not try to explain everything that God does. In fact, who can?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Not exactly, although it looks that way at first. The answer that is usually given runs something like this: God predestined, but it is still faith that saves. Right? Then, it is up to those whom he has commissioned (us) to spread the Gospel by which those he intended to come to faith will have the opportunity to do so. It's not as though they are born with knowledge of Christ's sacrifice imbedded in their anatomy; they have to learn just as with other truths we come by in life.

 

[Defcon]

That is a common but very naive interpretation you heard. It happens because people tend not to read things in context or follow the flow of Paul's argument in Romans.

What Paul meant was:

For those Jews God had known in the past, he predestined to be conformed to the death and resurrection of Jesus when Jesus came to them.

It is not a statement about God choosing who his people would be but a statement about what he provided for his people the Jews.

Um, no. verse 31 "What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?" Read here -believers, the elect. Then read on through the end of chapter 8 all the wonderful blessings given to us through Christ and how we can never be separated from him. Use your own advice - read the verse in context.

 

[mlqurgw]

That is a common but very naive interpretation you heard. It happens because people tend not to read things in context or follow the flow of Paul's argument in Romans.

What Paul meant was:

For those Jews God had known in the past, he predestined to be conformed to the death and resurrection of Jesus when Jesus came to them.

It is not a statement about God choosing who his people would be but a statement about what he provided for his people the Jews.

I am always skepical when someone says what Paul meant and then go about twisting. Paul says what he means.

 

[Albion]

1) Decide if predestination/election is taught in Scripture.

2) If "Yes," don't follow that up by trying to analyze God's motives. Believe.

3) If "No," you don't have a problem and don't need to worry any more about this subject.

 

[BrotherSteve]

If that's his plan, then that's his plan. IOW, we readily warm to the idea that we can be predestined to salvation without our intrinsic worth being measured, but we don't like it when God exercises the same arbitrariness in the case of those not predestined to salvation. Is this logical, good theology...or just a human way of thinking?

My question is exactly that - is it good theology to say that God has already predestined people for either salvation or damnation. I understand that God can (and does) harden the hearts of some people (Pharo for example) so that he can be glorified.

But Jesus died so that all people might have salvation. If God predestined some people to go to Hell then Jesus died so that some people might go to Heaven not all people. I don't think that is biblical.

Not exactly, although it looks that way at first. The answer that is usually given runs something like this: God predestined, but it is still faith that saves. Right? Then, it is up to those whom he has commissioned (us) to spread the Gospel by which those he intended to come to faith will have the opportunity to do so.

I understand the explination but I don't agree with the logic. The very idea of having "the oportunity" to accept the Gospel of Christ goes against predestination. If one is predestined it doesn't matter what they do they will still end up at the same place.

 

[BrotherSteve]

I am always skepical when someone says what Paul meant and then go about twisting. Paul says what he means.

Everything needs to be taken in context. The context of the verse within the passage, and also the context of the passage within the bible as a whole.

If we blindly examine only one scripture at a time without comparing to other scriptures and taking the context into account we will surely end up with the wrong idea. This is why the JW's and Mormons can say the believe the bible even though it clearly goes against their doctrine - they don't look at context.

 

[seekingpurity047]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Allow me to address these issues that you raise up.

God does set up vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Romans 9:21-24). Might I also add that, God loves the world, but not in the same way. Allow me to explain.

God loves (phileo) the world in a different way than he loves (agape) the church. For it is said:
25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] (Eph. 5:25-27)

Allow me to put this into an analogy. Say y ou are married to a wonderful woman, and you love her very much. Do you love your wife in the exact same way that you love every single other woman on the face of the earth? I hope not, cuz then there would be no point in getting married to her, would there? What would make her more special than the others if you love her in the exact same way that you love every other woman?

Christ loves (agape) the church more than he loves (phileo) the world. The Church is His bride. Bring back to the analogy, if the Church is His bride, then shouldn't he love the Church MORE than the rest of the world? Yes.

Might I also add that no person on the face of the earth deserves to be predestined for heaven. We all deserve to go to hell... "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23. "For the wages of sin is death, and the gift of eternal life is thorugh our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom. 6:23. Spiritual death. We are all sinners, therefore spiritually dead, and we all deserve to burn and be eternally condemned where there is gnashing of teeth.

Alot of christians fail to realize these truths. Christians like to place God's love first, and totally ignore God's wrath! Even so... they fail to ignore the priority of God, which is that He may be glorified unto the ends of the earth, through both wrath and mercy (Rom. 9:21-24). Allow me to give you a biblical example where God loved the Israelites more than He did the Egyptians. Ex. 7:1-5

1And the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. 5The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them."

Does God not do this today? I assure you believer, He does. God never changes. He poured out His wrath upon the Egyptians, and I'm sure that if you have ever read Exodus (and if you haven't, I HIGHLY recommend it for understanding the true character of God), you will notice that Pharaoh occasionally had a desire to let the Israelites go, but it was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart. Funny how God worked then, and He still works like that today.

As for the evangelization issue that you have with predestination. Read the bible, it's all over the place. For it is said: Rom. 10:14-17

14But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This is how God saves His elect, by electing other people to believe, and then commanding them to go preach the Gospel, then saving the others by their hearing. It's a matter of cause and effect.

Believer, I pray that you notice these biblical truths that I have given you, and I pray that you praise His name for them.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[AnthonyE1778]

To say that there is an absolute select number of people that God predestined to be saved and go to heaven before time even began is extremely Calvinistic. L in the TULIP stands for Limited Atonement. I do believe that we all make our own choices but that God knows what choice that we are going to make so in essence he knows who is going to heaven and who is going to become saved or not and from that one could derive that God chose believers.

 

[Sentry]

Um, no. verse 31 "What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?" Read here -believers, the elect. Then read on through the end of chapter 8 all the wonderful blessings given to us through Christ and how we can never be separated from him. Use your own advice - read the verse in context.

I have read it. You have read into it.

The elect are those who are united with the Elect One of God. Christians.

Paul was writing to Jewish Christians and reminding them that Christ was the end and goal of the Law.

 

[Defcon]

I have read it. You have read into it.

The elect are those who are united with the Elect One of God. Christians.

Paul was writing to Jewish Christians and reminding them that Christ was the end and goal of the Law.

Watering down scripture to fit your theology is not a theology from God - it is man-made. Any discerning person knows that this scripture does not fit your generalized explanation.

 

[cg1970]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

All PEOPLE are predestined to go to Heaven. But the predestination is conditional on each of us accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus.

 

[California Tim]

But Jesus died so that all people might have salvation.

So that none could boast and so that none could have excuse.

If God predestined some people to go to Hell then Jesus died so that some people might go to Heaven not all people. I don't think that is biblical.

You need to read the Bible and understand the Bible by the Spirit. It is not an easy book for the natural mind to grasp. Read the rest of the passage you began to quote:

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:19-24)​

I understand the explination but I don't agree with the logic. The very idea of having "the oportunity" to accept the Gospel of Christ goes against predestination. If one is predestined it doesn't matter what they do they will still end up at the same place.

You don not have to "understand" God to trust in Him and His plan. Personally, I feel predestination can and does coexist with every man's ability to choose Christ. I do not fully comprehend it any more than I comprehend the Triune nature of God, but I believe it.

The words on predestination are clear enough. It puzzles me why any would question them. It seems too many Christians are used to the buffet-style religion - where they pick and choose what parts of the Bible they wish to believe, trying to conform God into a diety bound and limited to their own logic and reason. I say, just trust and obey.

 

[BrotherSteve]

All PEOPLE are predestined to go to Heaven. But the predestination is conditional on each of us accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus.

if predestination is conditional it is not predestination...

 

[Albion]

My question is exactly that - is it good theology to say that God has already predestined people for either salvation or damnation.

I think so. There's sufficient logic, scripture, and history on its side to make this POV good theology. But so is the opposite, Free Will. That's why the contest has endured for so long and divided Christians so much.

I understand that God can (and does) harden the hearts of some people (Pharo for example) so that he can be glorified.

But Jesus died so that all people might have salvation. If God predestined some people to go to Hell then Jesus died so that some people might go to Heaven not all people. I don't think that is biblical.

I certainly don't want to start into another pro and con of this topic. There have been too many of those already, but I can say that I once felt as you do and with study came to feel that there's about as much going for it as against it.

I understand the explination but I don't agree with the logic. The very idea of having "the oportunity" to accept the Gospel of Christ goes against predestination. If one is predestined it doesn't matter what they do they will still end up at the same place.

It's an elusive concept and maybe I wasn't good enough in trying to explain it. It's not "the opportunity" exactly, but that if we believe Scripture to the extent that we believe we are saved by Faith, we are not saved by God choosing us in the absence of Faith. Scripture also tells us that Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, so he who is elected to salvation has to have the Faith and that can come only by it being brought to him (evangelism). It won't come by a vision or something like that. Incidentally also, those who feel this way also say that evangelism is important apart from who is saved. Since it is right that everyone know and do God's will, we ought to bring the Gospel to everyone even if they are not among the elect. And they ought to do right, quite apart from any rewards.

If one is predestined it doesn't matter what they do they will still end up at the same place.

That's not the way to phrase it. Put it this way--

If one is predestined, he will receive the faith, and if he is then a true believer, it is not credible to leave open the possibility that "it doesn't matter what they do." This is just like the usual argument over Sola Fide, except one step removed. With the former, we have to say that if you have the Faith you will not live like one who doesn't have it; if you did, that would prove that you claimed to have Faith but we can see that you don't.

With the matter of Predestination, if you have the Faith--but because of a divine plan aimed at you personally from the beginning of time--you still will not live like a Pagan or libertine or else that would mean that you don't have the Faith after all.

 

[BrotherSteve]

God does set up vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Romans 9:21-24). Might I also add that, God loves the world, but not in the same way. Allow me to explain.

God loves (phileo) the world in a different way than he loves (agape) the church. For it is said:
25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] (Eph. 5:25-27)

The verse you quote does not support your claim. Please show me where God tells us that he loves "the Church" more than the people that make up the church.

Allow me to put this into an analogy. Say y ou are married to a wonderful woman, and you love her very much. Do you love your wife in the exact same way that you love every single other woman on the face of the earth? I hope not, cuz then there would be no point in getting married to her, would there? What would make her more special than the others if you love her in the exact same way that you love every other woman?

Bad analogy - the church is the Bride of Christ - but the rest of the world is not comparable to women who are not your wife.

Might I also add that no person on the face of the earth deserves to be predestined for heaven. We all deserve to go to hell... "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23. "For the wages of sin is death, and the gift of eternal life is thorugh our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom. 6:23. Spiritual death. We are all sinners, therefore spiritually dead, and we all deserve to burn and be eternally condemned where there is gnashing of teeth.

Okay, then you don't think that people are predestined?

Alot of christians fail to realize these truths. Christians like to place God's love first, and totally ignore God's wrath! Even so... they fail to ignore the priority of God, which is that He may be glorified unto the ends of the earth, through both wrath and mercy (Rom. 9:21-24). Allow me to give you a biblical example where God loved the Israelites more than He did the Egyptians. Ex. 7:1-5

I did mention Pharoah in an earlier post to illustrate that God does harden the hearts of some people for his glory...did you miss that one?

As for the evangelization issue that you have with predestination. Read the bible, it's all over the place. For it is said: Rom. 10:14-17

I agree that the bible says we should tell others the Gospel of Christ. My question was that if people are predestined what is the point of evangilism.

 

[Albion]

if predestination is conditional it is not predestination...

You're right in the narrow sense, but I might note that in the Thirty-nine Articles, the longest of them is about Predestination and it takes basically the approach that cg1970 seemed to. That is, it is God's eternal plan that we all be reconciled to him.

However, this is not the Calvinistic view that is what most people deal with, and in that realm you are certainly supported by them. If there is anything conditional about it, we don't have predestination. That POV (that conditions and election are compatible in any way) was sternly rejected.

 

[BrotherSteve]

So that none could boast and so that none could have excuse.

right - we are saved by grace not by anything we have done - that is why we can't boast...

You don not have to "understand" God to trust in Him and His plan.

True, our understanding is not required but our obedience is.

The words on predestination are clear enough. It puzzles me why any would question them.

I don't think they are that clear - and so far I have been unable to find someone who can clearly explain it.

 

[Albion]

I don't think they are that clear - and so far I have been unable to find someone who can clearly explain it.

Well, you've surely had a few of us here doing our best to explain it and the other questions about Predestination that you've raised. I think it's time for you to respond directly to those answers, not just say "so far I have been unable to find someone who can clearly explain it."

What don't you agree with? What do you find unclear about our explanations? Why not? I, for example, gave you two answers to the question of "Why evangelism?" that are not original with me but standard answers, and to that you merely repeated your question.

How 'bout it?