Predestination

[Adammi]

I have never believed in predestination but I was reading last night in Romans and I came across this:
Romans 9:7-187 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
And I was like whoaa, maybe I was wrong then in the next verses Paul addresses my arguement againt predestination:

[BIBLE]Romans 9:19-21[/BIBLE]

What exactly so you guys believe about predestination?

 

[Elderone]

What exactly do you guys believe about predestination?

Here is some of what the Bible teaches about predestination:

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained (predestined) (my addition) before the world unto our glory:

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


That is what I believe.

 

[Imblessed]

Upon this Rock,

that one will get you won't it....."jacob I have loved"--and "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" ......

whoa there..... makes you think twice eh?

now that you've noticed that little gem in the bible, the rest will come jumping out. But it all makes sense in the end, really.
For me, whole sections of the bible just came alive, and my faith in God's soveirnity was restored. It's humbling also, knowing that you owe EVERYTHING to God--it really made me want to please Him more....not for me, but for Him.

Feel free to ask any questions you have, we are hear to make it easier! There are so many in here that can really explain things so well......... and we are also a very relaxed bunch of people who like good jokes (and quite a few like a good beer )

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Did somebody say beer?

Oh, that isn't the topic... This certainly is a gem that God has opened your eyes to. When you take another look at the part where we are not worthy of predestination (which is why it is called "grace") election becomes something that will excite you where before you just denied it. That was my experience at least.

 

[True Catholic]

What exactly so you guys believe about predestination?

I hold to supralapsarianism which is the doctrine that God decreed both election and reprobation before the fall.

The logical order of the decrees in the supralapsarian scheme is:

• (1) God's decree to glorify himself through the election of some and the reprobation of others;
• (2) as a means to that goal, the decree to create those elected and reprobated;
• (3) the decree to permit the fall; and
• (4) the decree to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.

 

[MORTANIUS]

Is there such a thing as "fate" in Christianity? I believe so. However, would choices in our lives be absent? Of course not.

Just as God permitted the devil to sway JOB away from God, it was ultimately JOB's choices pitched against something that has been determined ahead of time.

This isn't really a good example of Predestination, but does reveal that Freewill and something as absolute as Fate do have a relationship.

Something can be set forth from A-Z, but along the way choices are made until the conclusion.

Just a thought.

 

[StAnselm]

Well, it's good to hear that you're reading the Bible and thinking carefully about what it says. I'm always amazed at how, when I talk to people about predestination, their objections are always the specific ones that Paul addresses.

I think you might find that a lot of people came to an understanding of predestination through this chapter. As Elderone showed, though, lots of other passages in the NT say the same sort of thing. I generally refer people to Ephesians 1 and 2.

So what do I believe about predestination? I believe that God predestines all that happens. Further, I believe that God graciously chooses some to receive eternal life (what we call election) and leaves others to receive the punishment that their sins deserve, (what we call reprobation).

 

[StAnselm]

I hold to supralapsarianism

Hi True Catholic! Welcome to CF!

Maybe it's my ignorance, but I've never heard of an English Anglicans who was supralapsarian... are there many of you?

 

[St. George]

Hi True Catholic! Welcome to CF!

Maybe it's my ignorance, but I've never heard of an English Anglicans who was supralapsarian... are there many of you?

Hi (I changed my username )

No there are not many but nevermind eh

 

[Elderone]

Well, it's good to hear that you're reading the Bible and thinking carefully about what it says.

This is the Reformed forum, after all.

So what do I believe about predestination? I believe that God predestines all that happens. Further, I believe that God graciously chooses some to receive eternal life (what we call election) and leaves others to receive the punishment that their sins deserve, (what we call reprobation).

God actually choses both elect and non-elect by giving or withholding His Grace.

3:5 Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9, Eph_1:11; 1Th_5:9; 2Ti_1:9), out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9): and all to the praise of His glorious grace (Eph_1:6, Eph_1:12).


3:7 The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice (Mat_11:25, Mat_11:26; Rom_9:17, Rom_9:18, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:22; 2Ti_2:19, 2Ti_2:20; 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4).

 

[Elderone]

Is there such a thing as "fate" in Christianity? I believe so.

Please give your definition of fate.

 

[MORTANIUS]

Please give your definition of fate.

Fate as a outcome that is ultimate. For example, Death.

I suppose it is not a good word to use when thinking about whether or not God has already outlined our lives as such. On the other hand I use this term because people seem to be more familiar with it.

Fate according to mythologies is very specific and I don't wish to use such mythologies to explain something applied to Christianity, even though that is what is being implied with Predestination at times.

 

[Elderone]

Fate as a outcome that is ultimate. For example, Death.

I suppose it is not a good word to use when thinking about whether or not God has already outlined our lives as such. On the other hand I use this term because people seem to be more familiar with it.

Actually "fate" is a good word, it is just that most people think of the definition of it as random chance, and other 'mystical' or accidental happenings.

FATE 1. Primarily, a decree or word pronounced by God; or a fixed sentence by which the order of things is prescribed. Hence, inevitable necessity; destiny depending on a superior cause and uncontrollable. According to the Stoics, every event is determined by fate.

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree

3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

We have the ability to make choices, usually they are the wrong ones, but God's plan has taken all of that into consideration. However, to have true 'free will', as in being unbiased, we must be absolutely neutral, as blank as a sheet of paper. Original sin disallows that. Chapter 5 of The Westminster Confession goes into this.

Just as God permitted the devil to sway JOB away from God, it was ultimately JOB's choices pitched against something that has been determined ahead of time.

The wonderful thing about Job was that he stedfastly did not condemn God for the tragedies he was going through. I should be able to withstand even a small amount of what befell him.

 

[MORTANIUS]

Elderone, I just didn't want people to confuse my usage of this word with how it is defined in mythology.

I do believe God sets out events in our lives, but our choices are part of the free will on that journey that is absolute.

Its unfortunate that it hasn't been predestinated that other forum sections don't have cool conversations like this

 

[Elderone]

MORTANIUS

The atmosphere on this and the 'Ask A Calvinist' is such that people feel they can ask questions, or state beliefs, without someone jumping on them with both feet and in effect telling them their stupid.

I occasionally post on a forum that sometimes gets that bad. Some large egos at that place.

As you say, this place is great................

 

[MORTANIUS]

MORTANIUS

The atmosphere on this and the 'Ask A Calvinist' is such that people feel they can ask questions, or state beliefs, without someone jumping on them with both feet and in effect telling them their stupid.

I occasionally post on a forum that sometimes gets that bad. Some large egos at that place.

As you say, this place is great................

I agree, You Calvins are alright

 

[reformedfan]

Fate as a outcome that is ultimate. For example, Death.

I suppose it is not a good word to use when thinking about whether or not God has already outlined our lives as such. On the other hand I use this term because people seem to be more familiar with it.

Fate according to mythologies is very specific and I don't wish to use such mythologies to explain something applied to Christianity, even though that is what is being implied with Predestination at times.

fatalism is, 'why get out of bed if God predestined me to have food enough to eat,' etc. that's not Biblical predestination, however.

 

[theend0218]

I think this has been covered well so all I can add is yes, some of us like good beer. It woud be nice to sit down with you all over a few and discuss these things as friends. Peace to all. By the way, I enjoy this site a lot. Thanks to one and all.

 

[cygnusx1]

Fate is NOT Predestination .........



Some argue that those who teach and preach Predestination must be 'Fatalists' ......... this is far from true .

Fatalism is inconsistant with BOTH the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereignty and the equally Biblical doctrine of man's responsibility.

"Fatalism is the idea that all events are predetermined by fate and cannot be changed by human beings" Van

Fatalism is much more than that , it is a belief that all events are fixed and cannot be changed by humans or BY GOD!!


A true fatalist does not and cannot logically exist , for he would say "if I am meant to live to be a hundred years old , I needn't bother eating or drinking"

 

[cygnusx1]

The choices are simple , either

1. There is a Fate that fixes everything and God Himself cannot intervene !

2. There is a strange force called chance , that indicates things can happen bizzarely and unpredicably , even to God.

3. The view that Divine Providence covers all events , even sin!

The scriptures everywhere deny the first two ideas and reveal the 3rd idea as the truth.