Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Thursday]

How many people were hunted down by the catholic church and burned at the stake for making the bible available to the common people? Foxes Book of the Martyrs mentions several.

Foxes Book of Martyrs is a propaganda tool full of half truths, lies, and some true stories.

Catholics made the bible available in many languages throughout history. The Vulgate(from vulgar, or common) was translated into the common tongue for this reason.

You are poorly informed about Catholic history.

The Catholic Church defended the bible as true. It destroyed bible's like Luther's early German editions which changed the word of God.

Here is a good example from Luther's own words:

The Bible, in Romans 3:28, states,

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Martin Luther, in his German translation of the Bible, specifically added the word "allein" (English 'alone') to Romans 3:28-a word that is not in the original Greek. Notice what Protestant scholars have admitted:

...Martin Luther would once again emphasize...that we are "justified by faith alone", apart from the works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28), adding the German word allein ("alone") in his translation of the Greek text. There is certainly a trace of Marcion in Luther's move (Brown HOJ. Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1988, pp. 64-65).


Here's what Luther had to say about it:

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

 

[Thursday]

Yep, that's exactly how grace is represented as works.
Regarding Romans 11:22,... it's not about salvation. It is about your life here on earth. "Kindness" is about Christian community.
Let John Gill explain:
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
"if thou continue in his goodness;
meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:

otherwise thou also shall be cut off;
from the good olive tree, the Gospel church state, into which the Gentiles were taken; and which, with respect to particular persons, may intend the act of excommunication by the church, expressed in Scripture by purging the old leaven, putting away the wicked person, withdrawing from such that are disorderly, and rejecting heretics, that is, from the communion of the church; and with respect to whole bodies and societies, an entire unchurching of them by removing the Gospel, and the ordinances of it; which threatening has been awfully fulfilled in many Gentile churches, in Asia, Africa, and Europe; and therefore may serve to awaken our fear, care, and caution, lest we should be treated in like manner."
John Gill commentary
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-11-22.html

John 15:6...interesting version you use, with its choice of words.
Try the KJV:
6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Etc.

That's a lot of words!!

Not convincing, however. Sin can separate a man from God.

Paul is quite clear. Do you believe a person who has been cut off from God will go to heaven?

 

[ToBeLoved]

What if I freely want pain? What if I remember something sad? Am I not free to feel what I want?
I consider sadness and pain as necessary to life and learning.
I don't seek them out, but I don't define them as evil.
The big point about being able to sin in heaven is that free will doesn't seem to be operative in your concept of heaven.
I believe in will, but in it being free, so it isn't a problem for me, but your idea of heaven doesn't seem to accommodate it.
Help me with that.

So you want sin, pain and sadness in heaven? I think God's Word shows us that there will not be these things in heaven.

 

[Radagast]

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

This is an old question. One modern answer is this: Imagine that I secretly put a machine in your brain. Whenever you have the choice between strawberry and raspberry, I want you to choose strawberry on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, and raspberry on the other days. When my machine detects that you are about to make the "wrong" choice, it zaps you so that you change your mind. Consequently, your choices are 100% determined. However, it just so happens that you freely chose strawberry on (and only on) Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, so that the machine never actually zapped you, i.e. you were never coerced at any point. Thus determinism is not the same as coercion.

 

[98cwitr]

Well aside from Proverbs being under the Old Covenant, these verses you quote are about believers.

It doesn't say believers/righteous, it says "man."

I think it's fair to conclude that those God predestined to salvation are fairly predestined, but the remainder then are destined for the opposite.

 

[StanJ]

It doesn't say believers/righteous, it says "man."
I think it's fair to conclude that those God predestined to salvation are fairly predestined, but the remainder then are destined for the opposite.

That's right, but it was directed to the children of Israel who were believers. It wasn't directed towards non-believers.
I don't think it's fair to make any conclusions at all that are not actually established in the Bible and predestination to Salvation is not. Of course feel free to provide some scripture that teaches that. What does Romans 8:29 say?

 

[Patmos]

This is an old question. One modern answer is this: Imagine that I secretly put a machine in your brain. Whenever you have the choice between strawberry and raspberry, I want you to choose strawberry on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, and raspberry on the other days. When my machine detects that you are about to make the "wrong" choice, it zaps you so that you change your mind. Consequently, your choices are 100% determined. However, it just so happens that you freely chose strawberry on (and only on) Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays, so that the machine never actually zapped you, i.e. you were never coerced at any point. Thus determinism is not the same as coercion.

So those that make freely evil choices do it because God 'zapped' them, I.e determined it. Like original sin.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Foxes Book of Martyrs is a propaganda tool full of half truths, lies, and some true stories.

You do realized your opinion has no bearing on this book?

Catholics made the bible available in many languages throughout history. The Vulgate(from vulgar, or common) was translated into the common tongue for this reason.

Only catholics make that unfounded claim.

You are poorly informed about Catholic history.

Iwas born and raised a catholic and spent 10 years in catholic school. So yes I'm well aware of catholic teachings

The Catholic Church defended the bible as true. It destroyed bible's like Luther's early German editions which changed the word of God.

Yes the catholic did many wrongful things that exposed their propaganda.

Here is a good example from Luther's own words:

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Martin Luther, in his German translation of the Bible, specifically added the word "allein" (English 'alone') to Romans 3:28-a word that is not in the original Greek. Notice what Protestant scholars have admitted:

...Martin Luther would once again emphasize...that we are "justified by faith alone", apart from the works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28), adding the German word allein ("alone") in his translation of the Greek text. There is certainly a trace of Marcion in Luther's move (Brown HOJ. Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1988, pp. 64-65).


Here's what Luther had to say about it:

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

I don't depend on men's opinion, the catholics opinions or the popes opinions on God's word because God has preserved His word despite all your erroneous claims about the catholic having anything to do with writing or preserving God's word. So come back when you can avoid quoting other men's opinion's on God's word. Always keep in mind it's God's word not the catholics word nor did God put catholics in charge of His word. There is way to much information that is available today that disputes your claims that the catholic church is the sole disputer of God's word that information in fact proves just the opposite.

 

[Thursday]

You do realized your opinion has no bearing on this book?


Only catholics make that unfounded claim.


Iwas born and raised a catholic and spent 10 years in catholic school. So yes I'm well aware of catholic teachings


Yes the catholic did many wrongful things that exposed their propaganda.


I don't depend on men's opinion, the catholics opinions or the popes opinions on God's word because God has preserved His word despite all your erroneous claims about the catholic having anything to do with writing or preserving God's word. So come back when you can avoid quoting other men's opinion's on God's word. Always keep in mind it's God's word not the catholics word nor did God put catholics in charge of His word. There is way to much information that is available today that disputes your claims that the catholic church is the sole disputer of God's word that information in fact proves just the opposite.

You ignore the truth and repeat your propaganda.

I gave you solid evidence that Luther intentionally distorted the words of scripture to suit his own personal dogma.

Of course the Church would destroy such forgeries.

Here's the reality of the efforts of the Church to spread the word of God throughout the world in various languages throughout Christian history:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm

 

[Thursday]

You do realized your opinion has no bearing on this book?

It's not my opinion. Try the Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance:

Subsequently Foxe was considered a poor historian, in mainstream reference works. The1911 Encyclopædia Britannica accused Foxe of "wilful falsification of evidence"; two years later in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Francis Fortescue Urquhart wrote of the value of the documentary content and eyewitness reports, but claimed that Foxe "sometimes dishonestly mutilates his documents and is quite untrustworthy in his treatment of evidence".[43]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe's_Book_of_Martyrs

 

[David4223]

MOD HAT ON

Please ensure your posts are on-topic to the original topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss another topic, please start a new thread.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 Tim 3:15
14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household,which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 Timothy is a pastoral epistle. Not an epistle to the churches.

 

[Thursday]

1 Timothy is a pastoral epistle. Not an epistle to the churches.

Does that mean that you don't have to believe what it says?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

You ignore the truth and repeat your propaganda.

I gave you solid evidence that Luther intentionally distorted the words of scripture to suit his own personal dogma.

Of course the Church would destroy such forgeries.

Here's the reality of the efforts of the Church to spread the word of God throughout the world in various languages throughout Christian history:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15367a.htm

And I believe I said I didn't want to discuss another man's opinion's on the bible including Luther's. Remember you are the one that bought him into the conversation not me?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

It's not my opinion. Try the Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance:

Subsequently Foxe was considered a poor historian, in mainstream reference works. The1911 Encyclopædia Britannica accused Foxe of "wilful falsification of evidence"; two years later in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Francis Fortescue Urquhart wrote of the value of the documentary content and eyewitness reports, but claimed that Foxe "sometimes dishonestly mutilates his documents and is quite untrustworthy in his treatment of evidence".[43]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe's_Book_of_Martyrs

Yeah we all know how biased your sources are don't we? Especially wiki one on the most anti-Christian sources out there. Perhaps you could post where your ahem...ahem....proof can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Does that mean that you don't have to believe what it says?

No. But you said that it was forthe churches, so I corrected you. Can we stay focused on our conversation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yeah we all know how biased your sources are don't we? Especially wiki one on the most anti-Christian sources out there. Perhaps you could post where your ahem...ahem....proof can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica?

The 1911 version is quite old.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The 1911 version is quite old.

Yes it is but again I like to see what it actually states about a book that is continually undated.
EDIT: I just did a little research and all of it is of catholics taking offense over the book because it excluded them. Google it and you'll see for yourself.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

MOD HAT ON

Please ensure your posts are on-topic to the original topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss another topic, please start a new thread.

MOD HAT OFF​

Sorry I missed your post and will do as you asked.

 

[StanJ]

1 Timothy is a pastoral epistle. Not an epistle to the churches.

That may be what it is called but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to the church because Paul is actually teaching Timothy to be a pastor in a church.