Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

IMHO, that is bad theology. Free-will is very relevant to predestination. Not totally different things. Not the same, but not totally different either.

It's not free will and predestination that were being compared. It was free will and foreordination or, at times, predestination and foreordination.

 

[keltoi]

The suggestion is that sin has rendered us incapable of perfectly free choice. If you can't understand what you are choosing, it's vain to talk about being the master of your own fate!

That is a false suggestion.

 

[mikpat]

Albion
your statement of sin———"renders us incapable of perfectly free choice."

Every choice humans make contains some understanding————some iota of reasoning, some bit of rationality, etc.
If I drive 30 miles over the speed limit——-I sin, break the law and I am dam well aware of it and choose to speed.
If I sneak up to the third floor and have sex with the bosse's wife———-sounds like a free choice, I shoot on upstairs….

Sin is the result of poor choices, sin doesn't make us choose wrongly.

AMDG

 

[keltoi]

You don't seem to be addressing as to why God put the Tree there in the first place...especially with the foreknowledge they would eat from it.

May I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 2 and take note of verse 11. Also read Isaiah 55 and take note of verses 8-9. The point is that we do not know the mind of God, his knowledge and wisdom is way beyond what we can ever hope to understand yet here you are questioning us about why God put a tree in a garden. It appears to me that more than questioning us you are questioning God. If you have difficulty with God putting the Tree of Knowledge in the Graden of Eden because you believe he put it there because he predestined the fall of humanity so be it, others do not. Questioining us about God's reasoning skills isn't going to change any answers you have received but, and I was waiting for you to start another thread so I could post this post, it shows you don't understand God's reason for doing so. I, personally, have faith in God and do not feel a need to question his judgement or motives. It seems though that you do feel that need.

 

[98cwitr]

1 Corinthians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

This a common answer for the question. No one wants to, seemingly, conceptualize that God, in full knowledge of what Adam and Eve would do, and prior to the creation of anything, had decided to both place the Tree in the garden, create the devil, and create Adam and Eve. The reason, I believe, they don't want to is simply because their notion of free will, who they want to believe God is, and what they have been taught who God is will most definitely be brought into question by their own minds...so they avoid the question and simply say "I don't know" as eloquently and astutely as they can.

I'm not questioning God, and I'm not questioning His reasoning skills...I'm questioning those willing to address the question.

I'm not having difficulty; I am willing to attempt to answer the question, at least from a human (one made in His Image, as you say) viewpoint/perspective. Here's my answer to the question: It was His Will for it to ALL be so. He is Sovereign over ALL creation.

Now before you say "You make God a monster!" or "You make God into the author of sin" That's your opinion, not mine. He is our creator and we are His created. He can do with us however He pleases and it's completely just and right. He's not a monster and not the author of sin, He's God and the perfect example to all of us what Love really is. Read 1 Cor. 13 and replace the word "love" with "God," and you'll get an idea of what I mean.

Either God is completely Sovereign (and free will is nothing more than a perception) or universalism is true. Which is it?

 

[keltoi]

This a common answer for the question. No one wants to, seemingly, conceptualize that God, in full knowledge of what Adam and Eve would do, and prior to the creation of anything, had decided to both place the Tree in the garden, create the devil, and create Adam and Eve. The reason, I believe, they don't want to is simply because their notion of free will, who they want to believe God is, and what they have been taught who God is will most definitely be brought into question by their own minds...so they avoid the question and simply say "I don't know" as eloquently and astutely as they can.

So you are disagreeing with the Bible now. You are saying you know what is in the minds of people when the Bible says otherwise.

I'm not questioning God, and I'm not questioning His reasoning skills

Actually you are. Isn't it obvious that I and others haven't answered your question because we do not see it as a valid question, not only that we have Biblical backing to show it is not valid.

I'm questioning those willing to address the question.

Sorry but this is just complete rubbish. Your question was ignored yet you kept going with it. You are not questioning people who "are willing to address" it, youa re continuously questioning people who have ignored it because it isn't valid.

I'm not having difficulty;

So the definition of not having difficulty is continuing to ask the same question time and time again to people who have ignored it is it?

I am willing to attempt to answer the question,

Don't you think you should have done that days ago?

at least from a human (one made in His Image, as you say) viewpoint/perspective.

Well it wouldn't be from a divine perspective would it?

Here's my answer to the question: It was His Will for it to ALL be so. He is Sovereign over ALL creation.

So we have been through all this so you can simply say God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden because it was His Will. That has hardly been worth the wait. Please tell us something we don't know.

Now before you say "You make God a monster!" or "You make God into the author of sin" That's your opinion, not mine. He is our creator and we are His created. He can do with us however He pleases and it's completely just and right. He's not a monster and not the author of sin, He's God and the perfect example to all of us what Love really is. Read 1 Cor. 13 and replace the word "love" with "God," and you'll get an idea of what I mean.

Before you tell people to replace what is written in the Bible with other words maybe you should consult the original texts.

Either God is completely Sovereign (and free will is nothing more than a perception) or universalism is true. Which is it?

Are you really saying God in his complete sovereignship could not have given us freewill? Why do you limit what God can do? Are you in the same league as God?

You do realise you have taken a pretty big turn in this last post.

 

[98cwitr]

So you are disagreeing with the Bible now. You are saying you know what is in the minds of people when the Bible says otherwise.

Actually you are. Isn't it obvious that I and others haven't answered your question because we do not see it as a valid question, not only that we have Biblical backing to show it is not valid.
Sorry but this is just complete rubbish. Your question was ignored yet you kept going with it. You are not questioning people who "are willing to address" it, youa re continuously questioning people who have ignored it because it isn't valid.

So the definition of not having difficulty is continuing to ask the same question time and time again to people who have ignored it is it?
Don't you think you should have done that days ago?
Well it wouldn't be from a divine perspective would it?
So we have been through all this so you can simply say God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden because it was His Will. That has hardly been worth the wait. Please tell us something we don't know.

Before you tell people to replace what is written in the Bible with other words maybe you should consult the original texts.

Are you really saying God in his complete sovereignship could not have given us freewill? Why do you limit what God can do? Are you in the same league as God?

You do realise you have taken a pretty big turn in this last post.

Actually it is the Bible that leads me to such conclusions.

Shall I assume you're never going to attempt to give a legit (direct) answer to the question? If so, I think we might be done with this topic.

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 Corinthians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

This a common answer for the question. No one wants to, seemingly, conceptualize that God, in full knowledge of what Adam and Eve would do, and prior to the creation of anything, had decided to both place the Tree in the garden,
t?

The problem with this is the Bible tells us the opposite. Creation was good. The creation of man in the image of God was good.

Then comes the fall, and that was bad.

Then the word 'sin' is used over and over to show us that sin is what separates us from God.

I think the entire Bible shows that God could not and would not have predestined sin. He allowed for choice, but did not predestine sin.

 

[98cwitr]

The problem with this is the Bible tells us the opposite. Creation was good. The creation of man in the image of God was good.

Then comes the fall, and that was bad.

Then the word 'sin' is used over and over to show us that sin is what separates us from God.

I think the entire Bible shows that God could not and would not have predestined sin. He allowed for choice, but did not predestine sin.

You're ignoring the question. There's no room for choice from an eternal viewpoint. All things that ever will be are already foreseen. The future is static, because time does not exist.

 

[Albion]

Albion
your statement of sin———"renders us incapable of perfectly free choice."

Every choice humans make contains some understanding————some iota of reasoning, some bit of rationality, etc.
If I drive 30 miles over the speed limit——-I sin, break the law and I am dam well aware of it and choose to speed.
If I sneak up to the third floor and have sex with the bosse's wife———-sounds like a free choice, I shoot on upstairs….

Sin is the result of poor choices, sin doesn't make us choose wrongly.

AMDG

Please note that when I said "renders us incapable of perfectly free choice" I included the word perfectly for a reason.

Although we make many bad choices, the overwhelming majority of our choices are made freely. But we are not capable of finding God through our own resources and abilities. That's where the subject of predestination comes in.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You're ignoring the question. There's no room for choice from an eternal viewpoint. All things that ever will be are already foreseen. The future is static, because time does not exist.

I agree with that from God's side. Of course he knows.

But show me that we are not right now living real lives and making real choices. Just because God knows the outcome doesn't mean he interfered or changed our lives.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please note that when I said "renders us incapable of perfectly free choice" I included the word perfectly for a reason.

Although we make many bad choices, the overwhelming majority of our choices are made freely. But we are not capable of finding God through our own resources and abilities. That's where the subject of predestination comes in.

Is this the 1%?

We get freedom of choice in everything but this?

That makes no sense to me. Nor do I feel it makes Biblical sense.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can God create or be reconciled to sin?

Can a holy, just, righteous , perfect God be reconciled to ANYTHING that is not also holy, righteous and perfect?

The answer is no. God did not create sin. God created creation with free-will and the ability to choose. That is where sin came from. Not God.

 

[Albion]

Is this the 1%?

We get freedom of choice in everything but this?

That makes no sense to me. Nor do I feel it makes Biblical sense.

It makes sense because most of the things of the physical world that we deal with every day--family and work problems, for example--are within the scope of our God-given intellectual abilities. But what can we know through experience or reasoning about God becoming Man and dying on the Cross, rising again to triumph over death, and making possible the reconciliation of sinful mankind with the Creator? Well, nothing.

That is why this particular choice--the most important one that there is--has to be within God's own decision making ability. And as for the Biblical testimony, we've already presented enough Bible passages that testify to predestination that asking about the Scriptural evidence shouldn't be a question any longer.

 

[98cwitr]

I agree with that from God's side. Of course he knows.

But show me that we are not right now living real lives and making real choices. Just because God knows the outcome doesn't mean he interfered or changed our lives.

Proverbs 16:9 and 20:24, just to start. I've got a ton of Scripture showing where God intervenes. Just the concepts of Him changing our hearts, giving us the Holy Spirit, and the potter/clay analogy all show that He does intervene and change our lives. We are not our own!!

 

[98cwitr]

Can God create or be reconciled to sin?

Can a holy, just, righteous , perfect God be reconciled to ANYTHING that is not also holy, righteous and perfect?

The answer is no. God did not create sin. God created creation with free-will and the ability to choose. That is where sin came from. Not God.

Do you read the KJV?

 

[keltoi]

Actually it is the Bible that leads me to such conclusions.

Likewise the Bible leads me to the conclusions I have reached.

Shall I assume you're never going to attempt to give a legit (direct) answer to the question? If so, I think we might be done with this topic.

It seems to me that you don't understand I am not one of the people you said before are willing to discuss God's reasoning skills. How many times does your question have to be ignored before you understand that. I gave you 2 sections of scripture to show this and you now say that what I have done is not legit. I'm sorry if my respect for God is greater than your desire to force me to answer a question of yours.

 

[98cwitr]

Likewise the Bible leads me to the conclusions I have reached.

It seems to me that you don't understand I am not one of the people you said before are willing to discuss God's reasoning skills. How many times does your question have to be ignored before you understand that. I gave you 2 sections of scripture to show this and you now say that what I have done is not legit. I'm sorry if my respect for God is greater than your desire to force me to answer a question of yours.

Your reply reminds me of the following Scripture:

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

Even Paul himself, when he faces the question in his own writing, refuses to directly answer the question. Instead, he simply says "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

Now, who determines said usage? The Maker or the made?

 

[keltoi]

Your reply reminds me of the following Scripture:

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

Even Paul himself, when he faces the question in his own writing, refuses to directly answer the question. Instead, he simply says "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

Now, who determines said usage? The Maker or the made?

What has that got to do with a tree? Your issue has been about freewill, now it appears you have changed it. Taking it back to freewill, humans have freewill, trees don't. You asked why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden to try and highlight that Adam and Eve didn't have freewill, now your talking about everything having freewill. The Tree of Knowledge couldn't determine its own usage but Adam and Eve could certainly have chosen not to eat from it.

 

[98cwitr]

What has that got to do with a tree? Your issue has been about freewill, now it appears you have changed it. Taking it back to freewill, humans have freewill, trees don't. You asked why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden to try and highlight that Adam and Eve didn't have freewill, now your talking about everything having freewill. The Tree of Knowledge couldn't determine its own usage but Adam and Eve could certainly have chosen not to eat from it.

It has everything to do with both the Tree and the human condition! How is that not clear?

Nothing determines its own usage; plants nor animals nor humans. God does. The Scripture proves it.