Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Tree of Life]

Is Hypnotism some kind of coercion - the recipient is acting according to his altered will ?

Maybe. Is that relevant here?

 

[98cwitr]

How is given a nature that guarantees us to do something not coercive ?

It doesn't fit the definition:

co·er·cive
kōˈərsiv/
adjective
adjective: coercive

1. relating to or using force or threats.

https://www.google.com/search?q=coe...&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&ssui=on

Force implies that it goes against our will, but if our will is governed by our nature then we can't be "forced." God doesn't threaten us in order for us to do His Will. At worst we could say that He issues an ultimatum, but really I see it as clearly outlining the repercussions of both sin and the rewards of righteousness.

 

[keltoi]

The way to look at it might be closer to this--

If God did not do something on his own to give us a chance of escaping from the consequence of our sins, what would we deserve on our own merits? Answer: Hell. So if God does intervene, is he entitled to choose those whom he will rescue? Well, sure. Is that unfair? No, not unless there's something unfair about we who commit sin not ascending to the presence of God who knows no sin.

ONLY if men were able to live their lives without committing a sin would it be unjust of God not to save them.

God did intervene, what is important is we still have free will to either accept Christ or to reject Christ. When push comes to shove God has done all he needs to do the rest is our choice.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.

Not relief for the answered prayer for a loved one, leading to despair and doubt.

I could go on...


Two wrongs do not make a right.

We know through scripture Christ died for all mankind so why would you make a claim that goes against scripture?

1 Peter 3:18 [Full Chapter]
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, and was put to death concerning the flesh, but was quickened by the spirit.

John 3 :
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth in him, is not condemned: but he that believeth not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of that only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that that light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather than that light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every man that evil doeth, hateth the light, neither cometh to light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth, cometh to the light, that his deeds might be made manifest, that they are wrought according to God.

 

[twin1954]

God did intervene, what is important is we still have free will to either accept Christ or to reject Christ. When push comes to shove God has done all he needs to do the rest is our choice.

What an impotent god that would be. So in your view it is man who determines his own eternal destiny not God? Who does that put on the throne?

 

[twin1954]

We know through scripture Christ died for all mankind so why would you make a claim that goes against scripture?

1 Peter 3:18 [Full Chapter]
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, and was put to death concerning the flesh, but was quickened by the spirit.

John 3 :
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth in him, is not condemned: but he that believeth not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of that only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that that light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather than that light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every man that evil doeth, hateth the light, neither cometh to light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth, cometh to the light, that his deeds might be made manifest, that they are wrought according to God.

Show me one passage that says that God is not Sovereign and in control. I can easily show you from this passage that your view is not at all what the passage speaks.

 

[twin1954]

Every breath and movement of every molecule, and that is nit fatalism ?

I am lost here.

No it is foreordination. It isn't God forcing His will it is Him making sure His will comes to pass.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Show me one passage that says that God is not Sovereign and in control. I can easily show you from this passage that your view is not at all what the passage speaks.

I never said God wasn't in control of His creation what I said and you deny is that salvation is offered to all mankind and yes there are all kinds of verses that prove that fact. BTW the bible doesn't support Calvinism and nor do I.

 

[twin1954]

I think the whole predestination argument is so misunderstood its not funny.
Here's the clincher. Basically we have free will but God already knows what will will do.
We are the ones, not God, responsible for our own demise if it happens.

That was the Pelagian argument which was proclaimed heresy many many tears ago.

The fact is our responsibility does not derive from our ability to choose but from the fact that God is our Creator and Ruler. We are responsible because He commands us to believe not because we have free will.

 

[twin1954]

I never said God wasn't in control of His creation what I said and you deny is that salvation is offered to all mankind and yes there are all kinds of verses that prove that fact. BTW the bible doesn't support Calvinism and nor do I.

I challenge you to show me even one passage that says salvation is an offer rather than a gift. God never offers salvation He gives it.

 

[twin1954]

I never said God wasn't in control of His creation what I said and you deny is that salvation is offered to all mankind and yes there are all kinds of verses that prove that fact. BTW the bible doesn't support Calvinism and nor do I.

And again I challenge you to show me even one passage in which salvation is offered and not a gift. Your theology makes God impotent and helpless. He can't do what he desires unless the sinner does something for himself first.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I challenge you to show me even one passage that says salvation is an offer rather than a gift. God never offers salvation He gives it.

A gift is offered to a person which in turn they can accept it or reject it.....semantics isn't working on your side.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

And again I challenge you to show me even one passage in which salvation is offered and not a gift. Your theology makes God impotent and helpless. He can't do what he desires unless the sinner does something for himself first.

That is you misconception because I in no way said or implied that..

 

[twin1954]

That is you misconception because I in no way said or implied that..

Of course you haven't but it is the simple logical conclusion of your view. There is no way around it.

Premise 1. God desires all mankind to be saved.

Premise 2. God loves all mankind and wants to save every individual.

Premise 3. God has made provision for each individual to be saved by the death, burial and resurrection of His Son.

Premise 4. God gives man free will to choose to be saved or damned.

Premise 5. God leaves it up to man to determine his own destiny, Heaven or Hell.

Premise 6. God offers salvation to all but cannot save unless man decides to be saved.

Conclusion: Man is the determining factor in his own salvation and God actually does not save but man saves himself. God wants to save but cannot because man will not let Him. Those in Heaven did something that those in Hell did not. Man is actually in control and not God.

Should I go on?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Of course you haven't but it is the simple logical conclusion of your view. There is no way around it.

Premise 1. God desires all mankind to be saved.

Premise 2. God loves all mankind and wants to save every individual.

Premise 3. God has made provision for each individual to be saved by the death, burial and resurrection of His Son.

Premise 4. God gives man free will to choose to be saved or damned.

Premise 5. God leaves it up to man to determine his own destiny, Heaven or Hell.

Premise 6. God offers salvation to all but cannot save unless man decides to be saved.

Conclusion: Man is the determining factor in his own salvation and God actually does not save but man saves himself. God wants to save but cannot because man will not let Him. Those in Heaven did something that those in Hell did not. Man is actually in control and not God.

Should I go on?

You were good up to your fabricated conclusion. God offers the FREE GIFT of salvation to all mankind and mankind chooses heaven or hell. Either you believe God's word or you don't. It's just that simple.

 

[Job8]

The reply was: "It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

The use of this verse to establish determinism is incorrect. What this Scripture reveals is that IN SPITE of free will (which is clearly presented in Scripture), God takes every action into account, and makes everything work out ultimately according to His own perfect will. The best example in the Bible is how God used the enmity of the religious leaders of Israel to bring about His own plan for the crucifixion of Christ for His glory and for our salvation.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23).

In this verse we see (1) the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God concerning the Lamb of God who was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world and (2) the wickedness of the Jews in condemning an innocent Man -- indeed their King-Messiah -- to death.

1. Did God coerce these wicked men? Absolutely not.

2. Did Satan influence these wicked men? Absolutely.

3. Did God see Christ on the Cross before He created Adam? Absolutely.

So what we have here is Divine foreknowledge, not Determinism.

 

[Berean777]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

The spirit came from God and so in this life time we have two forces at play, that is, good and evil. God represents what is good and Satan represents what is evil. There are also the blind who are being influenced by unseen forces at play, to be substituted in the game as reserves, when their time of calling comes. I see predestination as the wrong term to use to determine how God operates through the collective mind/spirit. The term rallying to achieve the purpose is more suitable and individuals can be rallied to eventually come to the knowledge of truth and to willingly be directed to achieve the intended purpose of the position that God destined them for to begin with. Take the analogy of God being like a coach who determines the best position on the field for the players on his side and in so doing he rallies behind every player to reach their potential in that position that they are predestined to play in, because after all God as the coach knows what is best and what the potential of that player is on the field, so he allocates it in order to win the game over the opposite side.

 

[Berean777]

God is therefore determined to win over evil and the term determinism is part and parcel of what life is about and is the very fabric of our spirit to know the truth and to discover our true potential in the area that we can excel and to serve best in. God reveals this to us as our coach and mentor and this is not in any way coercive determinism, but is the hallmark of the great leader that God is, who rallies behind us so that we can discover our true potential and to better serve the side that we are on.

 

[Berean777]

The use of this verse to establish determinism is incorrect. What this Scripture reveals is that IN SPITE of free will (which is clearly presented in Scripture), God takes every action into account, and makes everything work out ultimately according to His own perfect will. The best example in the Bible is how God used the enmity of the religious leaders of Israel to bring about His own plan for the crucifixion of Christ for His glory and for our salvation.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23).

In this verse we see (1) the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God concerning the Lamb of God who was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world and (2) the wickedness of the Jews in condemning an innocent Man -- indeed their King-Messiah -- to death.

1. Did God coerce these wicked men? Absolutely not.

2. Did Satan influence these wicked men? Absolutely.

3. Did God see Christ on the Cross before He created Adam? Absolutely.

So what we have here is Divine foreknowledge, not Determinism.

In other words he is the perfect coach and mentor and the Great Leader in revealing to us the knowledge of truth, so that we can aspire to reach, then to discover our true potential for the position that we are most suitable for.

 

[keltoi]

What an impotent god that would be. So in your view it is man who determines his own eternal destiny not God? Who does that put on the throne?

In my view we are not robots or puppets being controlled. God gave Adam and Eve free will, they chose to eat of the tree of knowledge God didn't command them to do it, infact he commended them not to, instead they chose to eat of the tree of knowledge. Now God has never changed, he still allows us free will. You can accept or reject that but if you reject it you are suggesting we are robots or puppets with no free will.

That was the Pelagian argument which was proclaimed heresy many many tears ago.

How wrong could you really be? The Pelagian heresy was that original sin has no effect on humanity and that humanity has the ability to work out its own salvation. I said, and you even quoted me, that God intervened. Humanity can not work out their own salvation, it is Christ who did that for us BUT we must accept Christ. If we reject Christ we are not going to receive eternal life.

The fact is our responsibility does not derive from our ability to choose but from the fact that God is our Creator and Ruler. We are responsible because He commands us to believe not because we have free will.

Give me something from the NT that says God commanded us to believe.