Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

keltoi · Apr 30, 2016

98cwitr said:
I am saying that we shouldn't state theological facts without backing them up with quoted Scripture. Well I don't believe in free will in a literal sense, so I'd like to see what Scripture you have that you believe proves it. I believe we have a will that is directly governed and dictated by our nature, and that nature is governed by our hearts, and our hearts are sovereignly governed by God's will for us. I'd like to see if you have any Scripture that would prove my beliefs errant.

Genesis 3: 1-6
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate
If our nature is governed by our hearts and our hearts are sovereignly governed by God's will for us would you care to explain why Eve and then Adam used their free will to eat fruit they were told not to eat therefore damming the rest of us to mortal life and the taint of sin? My interpretation of your post is that when all is said and done God is responsible for everything and that includes our sin. That's basically blaming others for what we do.

Patmos · Apr 30, 2016

BobRyan said:
Not according to the Bible. In the bible all was well until Adam sinned (Romans 5).

In the Bible - Christ is given as the Lamb of God for the sins of the world -- before the foundations of the world - but no man was accounted guilty of anything at that time.

BobRyan · Apr 30, 2016

98cwitr said:
I am saying that we shouldn't state theological facts without backing them up with quoted Scripture. Well I don't believe in free will in a literal sense, so I'd like to see what Scripture you have that you believe proves it. .

'He came to His OWN - and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 - this is the sovereign act of God - selecting, choosing "His own" and then "coming to them" - taking the initiative - but free will blocks that effort for many in the Jewish nation - others like the 12 and 70 disciples accepted Him.

"But to as many as received Him - to THEM he gave the right to be called the sons of God" - John 1:12

Not "to as many as He then caused to receive Him"

Jan001 · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Really so you think that Christ died on the cross for our sins PLUS we have to obey his commandments which are works to be saved. The bible doesn't support that notion.

You believe that Jesus died on the cross so that we can then continue to sin against Him without any eternal consequences for us?

That is not what Jesus teaches.

John 5:14
Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you.” rsv

Hebrews 10"16-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv

Christians who deliberately sin after they are saved are no longer saved. They will deserve a worse punishment than death without mercy. The people who have outraged the Spirit of grace by deliberately sinning spiritually deadly sins such as adultery and fornication will receive God's vengeance and a fury of fire as punishment when they die if they do not repent of their sins before they die.

Romans 10:
9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth man confesseth to salvation.
11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Grecian: for he that is Lord over all, is rich unto all that call on him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved.

A person does not "believeth" in Jesus unless he also "obeyeth" Jesus' commandments.

There is no "faith" in Jesus without "obedience" to His commandments.

It is a fact that Jesus saves us. It is also a fact that we need to continue to be saved until death. We continue to be saved by our obedience to God's commandments. If we continue to believe/obey Him until we die, we will then be approved worthy to inherit eternal life.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. rsv

A person continues in the faith, stable and steadfast, through his obedience to God's commandments. A person has no hope of eternal life if he becomes estranged from God again through his doing of evil deeds.

Evil Christians who call upon the name of the Lord after their death will not be saved and they will not be approved to inherit eternal life. Instead the following will happen to them:

Luke 13:23-28
And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. rsv

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

Jan001 said:
You believe that Jesus died on the cross so that we can then continue to sin against Him without any eternal consequences for us?

That is not what Jesus teaches.

John 5:14
Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you.” rsv

Hebrews 10"16-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv

Christians who deliberately sin after they are saved are no longer saved. They will deserve a worse punishment than death without mercy. The people who have outraged the Spirit of grace by deliberately sinning spiritually deadly sins such as adultery and fornication will receive God's vengeance and a fury of fire as punishment when they die if they do not repent of their sins before they die.

A person does not "believeth" in Jesus unless he also "obeyeth" Jesus' commandments.

There is no "faith" in Jesus without "obedience" to His commandments.

It is a fact that Jesus saves us. It is also a fact that we need to continue to be saved until death. We continue to be saved by our obedience to God's commandments. If we continue to believe/obey Him until we die, we will then be approved worthy to inherit eternal life.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. rsv

A person continues in the faith, stable and steadfast, through his obedience to God's commandments. A person has no hope of eternal life if he becomes estranged from God again through his doing of evil deeds.

Evil Christians who call upon the name of the Lord after their death will not be saved and they will not be approved to inherit eternal life. Instead the following will happen to them:

Luke 13:23-28
And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. rsv

The simple answer to your erroneous claim is found in the bible God's word. And yes there is a false teaching that once saved man sins no more but again the bible God's word proves that a false teaching.

1 John 1:101599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
10 If we say, we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

Jan001 said:
You believe that Jesus died on the cross so that we can then continue to sin against Him without any eternal consequences for us?

That is not what Jesus teaches.

John 5:14
Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you.” rsv

Hebrews 10"16-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv

Christians who deliberately sin after they are saved are no longer saved. They will deserve a worse punishment than death without mercy. The people who have outraged the Spirit of grace by deliberately sinning spiritually deadly sins such as adultery and fornication will receive God's vengeance and a fury of fire as punishment when they die if they do not repent of their sins before they die.

A person does not "believeth" in Jesus unless he also "obeyeth" Jesus' commandments.

There is no "faith" in Jesus without "obedience" to His commandments.

It is a fact that Jesus saves us. It is also a fact that we need to continue to be saved until death. We continue to be saved by our obedience to God's commandments. If we continue to believe/obey Him until we die, we will then be approved worthy to inherit eternal life.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. rsv

A person continues in the faith, stable and steadfast, through his obedience to God's commandments. A person has no hope of eternal life if he becomes estranged from God again through his doing of evil deeds.

Evil Christians who call upon the name of the Lord after their death will not be saved and they will not be approved to inherit eternal life. Instead the following will happen to them:

Luke 13:23-28
And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. rsv

As to your false doctrine we are continually saved until death God's word proves that a false doctrine

John 10:28-301599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of mine hand.
29 My Father which gave them me, is greater than all, and none is able to take them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

1 John 5:101599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
10 He that believeth in that Son of God, hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believed not the record, that God witnessed of that his Son.

Romans 8:38-391599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor Angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 4:301599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

98cwitr said:
I am saying that we shouldn't state theological facts without backing them up with quoted Scripture. Well I don't believe in free will in a literal sense, so I'd like to see what Scripture you have that you believe proves it. I believe we have a will that is directly governed and dictated by our nature, and that nature is governed by our hearts, and our hearts are sovereignly governed by God's will for us. I'd like to see if you have any Scripture that would prove my beliefs errant.

So you are under the belief that God predestined the majority of the world to hell?

Albion · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
So you are under the belief that God predestined the majority of the world to hell?

You know, that's a valid concern. But on the other hand, what does the non-predestination POV suppose? Well, it's that the majority of the world's people are going to hell anyway.

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

Albion said:
You know, that's a valid concern. But on the other hand, what does the non-predestination POV suppose? Well, it's that the majority of the world's people are going to hell anyway.

I agree the majority of mankind is going to hell by there own choice of unbelief. But again that is not God's will and the His word states that fact. 1Tim 2:4, John 8:24

Albion · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
I agree the majority of mankind is going to hell by there own choice of unbelief. But again that is not God's will and the His word states that fact. 1Tim 2:4, John 8:24

All right, but the end result is the same. To me, that means that using this as a criticism of predestination doesn't make sense. You might say, "At least they had a chance" but that's true only in theory. Most Christians who believe in free will expect that you have to use your free will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior, yet most of the people who have ever lived never even heard of Jesus.

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

Albion said:
All right, but the end result is the same. To me, that means that using this as a criticism of predestination doesn't make sense. You might say, "At least they had a chance" but that's true only in theory. Most Christians who believe in free will expect that you have to use your free will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior, yet most of the people who have ever lived never even heard of Jesus.

So you believe the plan of salvation isn't available to the world as Jesus said?

Romans 1:19-22 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
19 Forasmuch as that, which may be known of God, is manifest in them, for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him, that is, his eternal power and Godhead, are seen by the creation of the world, being considered in his works, to the intent that they should be without excuse:
20 For the invisible things of him, that is, his eternal power and Godhead, are seen by the creation of the world, being considered in his works, to the intent that they should be without excuse:
21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.

John 16:8 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

John 1:9 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
9 This was that true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

98cwitr · Apr 30, 2016

keltoi said:
Genesis 3: 1-6
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate
If our nature is governed by our hearts and our hearts are sovereignly governed by God's will for us would you care to explain why Eve and then Adam used their free will to eat fruit they were told not to eat therefore damming the rest of us to mortal life and the taint of sin? My interpretation of your post is that when all is said and done God is responsible for everything and that includes our sin. That's basically blaming others for what we do.

We need to back up a sec. Do you believe that God knew that Adam and Eve would eat from the Tree prior to the creation of the Tree and the humans? If so, why do you believe God put the Tree in the garden, knowing there was no other outcome other than that they would disobey Him? (See Isaiah 45:7, Ezekiel 36, and Romans 5)

98cwitr · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
So you are under the belief that God predestined the majority of the world to hell?

Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Who gives a man real faith: himself or God?

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

98cwitr said:
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Who gives a man real faith: himself or God?

Who are those who find this gate because if they were predestined they wouldn't need to find "the gate".

Romans 10:17
Then faith is by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now that begs the question how do the unsaved hear the word of God if not by witnesses?

Romans 10:14
But how shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him, of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Albion · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
So you believe the plan of salvation isn't available to the world as Jesus said? .

On the contrary, I was referring you to Jesus' own words.

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

Albion said:
On the contrary, I was referring you to Jesus' own words.

Yes but you didn't post any that support your Calvinistic views.

Albion · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Yes but you didn't post any that support your Calvinistic views.

John 10:27-29

98cwitr · Apr 30, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Who are those who find this gate because if they were predestined they wouldn't need to find "the gate".

Romans 10:17
Then faith is by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now that begs the question how do the unsaved hear the word of God if not by witnesses?

Romans 10:14
But how shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him, of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So you believe faith is from God then and that the message is delivered by man? So when a preacher preaches the word, then God is doing the work to move a person's heart to have faith in the message?

ScottA · Apr 30, 2016

Patmos said:
In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

Let me put it another way:

Predestination as a word, is not unlike "sunset." No - sunset does not actually, physically, mean the sun has set down on the horizon. Nor does predestination actually mean anything more than what it might [appear] to be from our [worldly] perspective. It's just a word that describes the perspective of the one who first coined the term.

We would do better to consider God's perspective. For example: If a computer programer set out to "create" something, and we looked at the details of his notes and saw 0010101010001000000000100000011011000010, etc. and tried to figure out whether zero number twelve had anything to do with the last zero in the lineup ... well...we would have missed the point entirely. Because looking at the journey, does not show us the finished product...because the finished product is unseen. And yet, "It is finished."

BornAgainChristian1 · Apr 30, 2016

Albion said:
John 10:27-29

Yes those of us who accepted that free gift of salvation that is offered by Christ. You do know not everybody accepts gifts for one reason or another don't you? So your verse doesn't support Calvinism once again.

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

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