Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Berean777]

I totally agree as does the Westminster Confession of Faith.

This is and always has been the so called Reformed position.

Any representation of the Reformed (or most Calvinist's) position which presents their position on predestination in a way that there is talk of robot and computers is to misrepresent the position of a fellow Christian.

In so far as man always falling in line with His will (or not) - this obvious situation is why any systematic theology in history worth it's salt presents the will of God in an "absolute" and a "permissive" way.

(Most such systematic theologies are written from a generally Reformed position by the way - and there's good reason for that.)

You are quite right when you say:

"God's experience of humanity is not one that is static, whereby God doesn't see man as an independent thinker, rather God thinks of man as just a robot driven by him as pieces in a chest piece. God experiences humanity dynamically, whereby God sees man as an independent thinker and one who can oppose his will, if so he wishes. From the above two scenarios, the latter is purpose built for God to experience man and one that sees man interact with his creator, regardless of indifference in power."

God has said that He purposefully intends that this "dialog" and responses by both parties be part of how He brings His absolute will to past. It is - in the words of the WCF - one of God's "second causes".

The Reformed teaching on those concepts follow in an excerpt that I repeat here - taken from a previous post.

Westminister Confession of Faith

Chapter 5 of Providence

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20]

From the above extract from the Westminister Confession of Faith, I see a powerful and benevolent God who can at any moment exercise his authority and no one could oppose him if he so chooses to exercise his will.

However in light of his awesome almighty power, God doesn't force his way into our lives, but rather takes an arbitrary role of conciliator, through the process of dialogue. The dialogue that is at play is the very one on one experience that one has with God, whether good or bad. God is a wonderful teacher who allows his students to self discover and become independent learners through the journey of life. He not only highlights our errors but allows us to correct them, so to become owners of our learning and in turn encourage and to teach others to do so also. So God uses the elect within a society to scaffold the rest who look up to ministerial leaders who guide others to self discovering their relationship with God and to one day become independent life long learners.

The Christian God is the definition of the word Love and is a being who wants the betterment of mankind and in so doing he doesn't merely transmit his will forcefully onto his students/subjects, rather allows them by giving them subtle queues, that encourage learning on an intrinsic personal aspired level. God teaches us through love and compassion and not by fear.

God would therefore be likened to a teacher who takes an arbitrator's role, like a teacher who sits at the back of the classroom and allows the students to collaborate with one another on life's issues and God simply highlights points that the group can self discover and to promote in a dynamic lively learning atmosphere that is pleasant and safe to learn in. On the other hand, when you consider Islam for example, we see a god being worshipped who requires all in attendance to be submissive and ready to receive a transmission style of teaching that prevents them to learn or to self discover their own relationship with their god. We see in Islam the subjects have no free will and the deity they worship doesn't reciprocate or care for the individuals learning and that learning becomes extrinsically motivated through fear of the peer group, rather than the love to worship. Christianity is the complete opposite of Islam and in this respect Christianity is the only way to know God on a personal level, whereby we call him ABBA.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I could be mistaken, but I thought all Evangelicals basically ascribe to some form of "predestination" as part of their doctrinal belief. I'm a non-denominational Christian myself, and never actually believed in "predestination", but always curious, I thought I'd pop into this thread and read why people think it's a valid doctrine.

No Bible believing Christian can "not" believe in predestination as part of their doctrinal belief.

What they believe about how predestination is applied by God however varies a great deal depending on how thorough the person is in his attempts to approach the scriptures systematically and without prejudiced.

If I had to describe God's relationship with mankind, I would characterize it as being "Parental". His relationship is changing, as mankind grows spiritually.

If we are talking about God's relationship with fallen man in general - His relationship is anything but "parental" IMO.

It is a fact that we are, in our fallen state, enemies of God without hope and without God in this world.

Any changes in mankind toward growing spiritually depends on His electing grace in making some into new creatures who can then enter into a proper parent/child relationship.

I think that's what God wants for mankind. A fully independent creation able to stand on its' own two feet, and worthy to inherit His kingdom.

I doubt that there can ever be a fully independent creation since we have our being in Him and it appears from scripture that we will in the new Heaven and the new Earth as well.

It appears to me that all creation must always have a dependent relationship with God.

Independence from God is what Satan wants and He will never achieve it - nor will mankind as I read it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

From the above extract from the Westminister Confession of Faith, I see a powerful and benevolent God who can at any moment exercise his authority and no one could oppose him if he so chooses to exercise his will...................

That is a correct view of what the scriptures teach about God.

We see in Islam the subjects have no free will and the deity they worship doesn't reciprocate or care for the individuals learning and that learning becomes extrinsically motivated through fear of the peer group, rather than the love to worship.

Probably true - at least as I understand the Islamic view of predestination ---- that view being more in line with the word "fate" than the word predestination in the Christian sense.

Christianity is the only way to know God on a personal level, whereby we call him ABBA.

So true.

 

[stephen583]

Independence from God is what Satan wants and He will never achieve it - nor will mankind as I read it.

Have you read in the Scripture where it says HEAVEN and Earth will pass away, (Matthew 24:35) ??? How does that not conflict with what you just stated ?

Obviously, not all Bible believing Christians agree with your view.

 

[Jan001]

God's omnipresence has the ability to overstep freewill when it comes to His Plan. Ie: Naming Cyrus the Persian as one who would bring about His will in releasing His people from captivity long before that took place. Isaiah 44:28 However that had nothing to do with Cyrus being predestined to salvation.
Proverbs 21:1
“The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.”

God did not force Cyrus to release the Israelites from captivity. In its prophecies, Scripture does record what will happen, but the prophecies in the Scriptures do not cause the events to happen.

God knew before Cyrus was born, even before the foundation of the world, that when Cyrus became king of Persia, he would free the Israelites from captivity. This knowledge of this future event was recorded in the Scriptures as a prophecy.

God did not coerce Cyrus into freeing the Israelites from captivity; God made it possible for Cyrus to free the Israelites from captivity. God did not usurp Cyrus' free will. Cyrus freely chose to free the Israelites.

Proverbs 21:1 uses a Semitic form of writing which portrays God's permissive will to be His sovereign will. In actuality, it is God's sovereign will that all mankind have free will to choose good or evil.

God does not prevent a person from doing something good. God does not force a person to do something evil. God permitted Cyrus to choose good and release the Israelites from captivity. By choosing good, Cyrus put his own heart into the hand of the Lord.

 

[Jan001]

Have you read in the Scripture where it says HEAVEN and Earth will pass away, (Matthew 24:35) ??? ...

Matthew 24:34-35
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. rsv​

This "heaven and earth" is the "temple" in Jerusalem. The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It passed away in 70 A.D. It vanished away in 70 A.D. The temple was destroyed within that generation (within 40 years) just as Jesus prophesied.

Mark 13:1-2, 28-31
And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.” .......28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth (the temple) will pass away, but my words will not pass away. rsv


Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth (the temple) pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. rsv
​

Christ finished/fulfilled the law on the cross. Christ ended the law of Moses.

John 19:30
When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. rsv

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law (of Moses), that every one who has faith may be justified. rsv

1 Corinthians 7:31
and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. rsv
​

Heaven and earth, the temple, passed away in 70 A.D. The law of Moses (first covenant) has been made obsolete (no longer in use) by Jesus' new covenant.

​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

God did not force Cyrus to release the Israelites from captivity. In its prophecies, Scripture does record what will happen, but the prophecies in the Scriptures do not cause the events to happen.

God knew before Cyrus was born, even before the foundation of the world, that when Cyrus became king of Persia, he would free the Israelites from captivity. This knowledge of this future event was recorded in the Scriptures as a prophecy.

God did not coerce Cyrus into freeing the Israelites from captivity; God made it possible for Cyrus to free the Israelites from captivity. God did not usurp Cyrus' free will. Cyrus freely chose to free the Israelites.

Proverbs 21:1 uses a Semitic form of writing which portrays God's permissive will to be His sovereign will. In actuality, it is God's sovereign will that all mankind have free will to choose good or evil.

God does not prevent a person from doing something good. God does not force a person to do something evil. God permitted Cyrus to choose good and release the Israelites from captivity. By choosing good, Cyrus put his own heart into the hand of the Lord.

There are 6 Aspects in THE DEVELOPEMENT OF GODS ETERNAL PURPOSES ( Part 1 )

1) FORE_ORDAINED ( to determine beforehand )

(God planned the use of each part of creation and purpose)

Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

(God pre-determined a purpose and a plan)

Ephesians 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

(God didn't create evil, but evil was worked into His plan)

Ephesians 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

( God designed the type of being nesssecary to recieve the revelation of His glory. One who would ascribe majesty and power to God)

1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

(Hense, the determining of a plan before the plan was put into operation)​

Cyrus would fit into this second part

2) DECREED (THE ACT BY WHICH GOD ESTABLISHED THE CERTAINTY OF HIS PLAN)

( God settled upon one plan and purpose. He established it as His plan , His purpose, and His program by an irreversable decree)

Job 22:28
You will also declare a thing,
And it will be established for you;
So light will shine on your ways.

(This limits God to that specific course of action)

Daniel 11:36
Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Luke 22:22
And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!

(God determined what Jesus would do in ministry, life and death.)

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[a] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Acts 4:27-28
For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

(God had forordained the event)​

Jesus had the foreknowledge of God's will and like Cyrus had the written word of prophesy. There is no doubt that Jesus had to conform His will to align with the Father's. History has it (thru Josephus) that Cyrus had the knowledge of the prophesy and acted accordingly.
What I said about Cyrus being under the omnipresence of God's will was to point out that it doesn't predestine salvation any more than those who put Jesus to death acting according to God's omnipresent decree. The objection is to the lack of differentiance in terms

 

[Jan001]

There are 6 Aspects in THE DEVELOPEMENT OF GODS ETERNAL PURPOSES ( Part 1 )

1) FORE_ORDAINED ( to determine beforehand )

(God planned the use of each part of creation and purpose)

Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

(God pre-determined a purpose and a plan)

Ephesians 1:5
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

(God didn't create evil, but evil was worked into His plan)

Ephesians 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

( God designed the type of being nesssecary to recieve the revelation of His glory. One who would ascribe majesty and power to God)

1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

(Hense, the determining of a plan before the plan was put into operation)​

Cyrus would fit into this second part

2) DECREED (THE ACT BY WHICH GOD ESTABLISHED THE CERTAINTY OF HIS PLAN)

( God settled upon one plan and purpose. He established it as His plan , His purpose, and His program by an irreversable decree)

Job 22:28
You will also declare a thing,
And it will be established for you;
So light will shine on your ways.

(This limits God to that specific course of action)

Daniel 11:36
Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Luke 22:22
And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!

(God determined what Jesus would do in ministry, life and death.)

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[a] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Acts 4:27-28
For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

(God had forordained the event)​

Jesus had the foreknowledge of God's will and like Cyrus had the written word of prophesy. There is no doubt that Jesus had to conform His will to align with the Father's. History has it (thru Josephus) that Cyrus had the knowledge of the prophesy and acted accordingly.
What I said about Cyrus being under the omnipresence of God's will was to point out that it doesn't predestine salvation any more than those who put Jesus to death acting according to God's omnipresent decree. The objection is to the lack of differentiance in terms

Some of the Scriptures are written as if it is God's sovereign will that determines every thing that every person does. This is not how God actually works in the individual lives of persons. God's permissive will allows each person to make his own choices.

Scripture seems to say that Pharaoh and Judas had no free will. But, both men actually made their own choices. Pharaoh actually hardened his own heart. God did not prevent Pharaoh from freeing the captives. Judas actually chose to betray Jesus. God did not force Judas to betray Jesus.

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go. rsv

Luke 22:4
he (Judas Iscariot) went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. rsv​

God knew all things that every person would do even before the foundation of the world. God told some men, that He called prophets, some of these things which He knew would happen and these future things were recorded in the Scriptures as prophecies.

God's (Father's and Son's and Holy Spirit's) knowledge of future events did not cause these events to occur. However, God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) did determine before the foundation of the world, because He (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) knew Adam would sin and cause mankind's alienation from God, to send the Son to earth to redeem mankind from Adam's sin.

1 Peter 1:18-21
You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake. 21 Through him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. rsv​

Jesus did not have to conform His own will to align with His father's. He freely chose to do His Father's will.

John 10:17
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. rsv

Matthew 26:39
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” rsv​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

....

Jesus did not have to conform His own will to align with His father's. He freely chose to do His Father's will.

John 10:17
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. rsv

Matthew 26:39
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” rsv​

You have created a juxtaposition where none exist. Freely choosing to do the Father's will is conforming His own will to align with the Father's. "Nevertheless not My will but Thine be done"

 

[Marvin Knox]

Independence from God is what Satan wants and He will never achieve it - nor will mankind as I read it.

Have you read in the Scripture where it says HEAVEN and Earth will pass away, (Matthew 24:35) ??? How does that not conflict with what you just stated ?

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Matthew 24:25

Since I don't see it - perhaps it would be better if you just told me how it does conflict wit what I stated.

Obviously, not all Bible believing Christians agree with your view.

Just as I said very clearly in my post.

No Bible believing Christian can "not" believe in predestination as part of their doctrinal belief. What they believe about how predestination is applied by God however varies a great deal depending on how thorough the person is in his attempts to approach the scriptures systematically and without prejudice.

 

[stephen583]

Since I don't see it - perhaps it would be better if you just told me how it does conflict wit what I stated.

If Heaven and Earth are going to pass away, (and apparently Hell also at some point will no longer serve any purpose, Revelation 20:10), explain to me how God's relationship with mankind is supposed to continue throughout all eternity ? How exactly are we supposed to become "inheritors of the kingdom of God" if God's rule is eternal and never ends ?

Matthew 24:35 merely states God's "Word" will never never pass away. It doesn't say anything about whether God Himself has other plans. Any ideas on that ?

 

[Berean777]

There are two wills at play here, that is the will of God and the will of man. The providence of God as the final and ultimate arbitrator is related to how he apportions grace to anyone choosing to enter the blood contract of the only begotten Son.

Jesus would say many are called yet few are chosen.

We discern from the above statement that man can choose his path according to man's will, but God has the final say according to his sovereign will.

So when a person doesn't enter the blood contract, then they don't stand a chance, however the people that do enter, have a chance, depending on God's sovereign will.

Salvation comes down to choices being made by man and God, whereby God can and is able to nullify man's choice by virtue of his final say. This notion falls within the predestination of that individual, according to God's sovereign providence/will.

If a person is destined to be the son of destruction, then there is nothing he can do, to prevent their choices from being manifest, to an all knowing God who knew all along that they will be destroyed.

Jesus stated......

When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(John 17:12)

If there was predetermined foreknowledge prophesied in scripture of Judas as the son of destruction, then there was a predestined role for him and there was nothing that Judas can do to prevent his actions and choices. Jesus was not in a position to parden Judas from his fate.

So we see a greater sovereign will being highlighted that man cannot change fate by man's will alone, that is Jesus as the man of Nazareth could not prevent Judas's fate.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If Heaven and Earth are going to pass away, (and apparently Hell also at some point will no longer serve any purpose, Revelation 20:10), explain to me how God's relationship with mankind is supposed to continue throughout all eternity ? How exactly are we supposed to become "inheritors of the kingdom of God" if God's rule is eternal and never ends ?
Matthew 24:35 merely states God's "Word" will never never pass away. It doesn't say anything about whether God Himself has other plans. Any ideas on that ?

I still don't understand where you are coming from.

But if you read revelation 21-22 you should find the answer to your questions.

 

[Berean777]

I still don't understand where you are coming from.

But if you read revelation 21-22 you should find the answer to your questions.

Yes, Revelation 21:22 does differentiate between two courts, that is the heavenly measured court and the outer unmeasured court of the unbelieving gentile world at large.

Remembering that John within the 1st century context of situation, was told to write the following.......

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. (Revelation 11:1-5)

There is a distinction being made between the heavenly measured/counted numbers of Christ, who have measured up to the test of life and who have entered in the wedding supper of the lamb of God through the first resurrection, that is, they have migrated from the earthly body to that of the heavenly body to be reunited with Christ in his inner heavenly measured court room, where his Father's house is.

So in Revelation 21:22 we see Christ is the residing temple before his heavenly measured crowd who hold the olive branches and wear white robes that were washed in the blood of Christ in Revelation 7:9-14. Notice this crowd is the heavenly city New Jerusalem that descendes from heaven, as the holy ones that accompany Christ at his brilliant second coming mentioned in Zechariah 14:5. Notice this heavenly city doesn't need the Sun or Moon to shine on them for the residing lamb is the citie's lamp, therefore implying that this inner court room is in fact the heavenly realm, that consists of all the measured /counted within Christ numbers heavenly crowd who have entered in through the first resurrection and have passed from earthly death to eternal life with Christ in the heavenly sanctum of his Father's house, that Christ said he would prepare for his bride that joins him in his supper.

We see the context below.......

1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4)

Notice that the first earth made of dirt passes away as is the case mentioned in Revelation 20:10, when death and hell cannot continue past this point as they will be both thrown in the lake of fire. The wedding supper of the lamb now has been fully furnished with guests and the seventh trumpet blown by Christ in declaring an end to the great harvest of God, that is "time no longer".

We see in the above versus that the first earth passes away and there was no longer any sea. This sea is not the literal sea, but rather the sea of people's from every nation and this is the very climax that humanity from the dirt man Genesis one point of reference comes to an end, when everyone dies and so after this point death ends because the is no human left around to die, that is all have died.

Notice also the wiping of tears along with mourning of people dying also ends suggesting that death is no longer in play and that everyone has died and either have entered in the first resurrection or have been thrown in the lake of fire. Scriptures states that those who do not take part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of the dead will finally end up in the lake of fire. So the second death on the lake of fire is for those who have passed from this earthly life and had not entered in the first resurrection and so remained in hell until death and hell were thrown in the lake of fire at the seventh trumpet coinciding with the end of the great harvest of God. The second coming of Christ when he blows the trumpet of God (seventh trumpet) is when the harvest ends and what remains and continues from eternity to entity is the heavenly measured inner court, who cannot die and who are during the harvest before Christ's second coming inaccessible to Satan and the earthly beast.

So the only crowd of Christ who will face off with the beast are the witnesses of the Great Commission, the church. Notice the two witnesses are said to prophesy, meaning preach the gospel for a prescribed time frame before they are eliminated by the beast at the climax before Christ's coming. The fire that comes from their mouth is the Holy Ghost fire that consumes their enemies heart and brings them as captives to Christ's cause. Jesus sent his disciples in twos to fulfill the symbol of the two witnesses shown on the mount of transfiguration, where the three disciples were told to not tell any man until Christ breathed on them the Holy Ghost and sent them off in twos as part of the great commission to preach the gospel and to reign down fire on the enemies who reject the gospel. This is the flying scroll that comes down from heaven and is preached by the church congregation mentioned in Zechariah 5:1. The church is the symbol of Moses and Elijah and this holy city towards the end will be trampled by non believers according to the fall in away mention in Thessalonians.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yes, Revelation 21:22 does differentiate between two courts, that is the heavenly measured court and the outer unmeasured court of the unbelieving gentile world at large.

Remembering that John within the 1st century context of situation, was told to write the following.......

There is a distinction being made between the heavenly measured/counted numbers of Christ, who have measured up to the test of life and who have entered in the wedding supper of the lamb of God through the first resurrection, that is, they have migrated from the earthly body to that of the heavenly body to be reunited with Christ in his inner heavenly measured court room, where his Father's house is.

So in Revelation 21:22 we see Christ is the residing temple before his heavenly measured crowd who hold the olive branches and wear white robes that were washed in the blood of Christ in Revelation 7:9-14. Notice this crowd is the heavenly city New Jerusalem that descendes from heaven, as the holy ones that accompany Christ at his brilliant second coming mentioned in Zechariah 14:5. Notice this heavenly city doesn't need the Sun or Moon to shine on them for the residing lamb is the citie's lamp, therefore implying that this inner court room is in fact the heavenly realm, that consists of all the measured /counted within Christ numbers heavenly crowd who have entered in through the first resurrection and have passed from earthly death to eternal life with Christ in the heavenly sanctum of his Father's house, that Christ said he would prepare for his bride that joins him in his supper.

We see the context below.......

Notice that the first earth made of dirt passes away as is the case mentioned in Revelation 20:10, when death and hell cannot continue past this point as they will be both thrown in the lake of fire. The wedding supper of the lamb now has been fully furnished with guests and the seventh trumpet blown by Christ in declaring an end to the great harvest of God, that is "time no longer".

We see in the above versus that the first earth passes away and there was no longer any sea. This sea is not the literal sea, but rather the sea of people's from every nation and this is the very climax that humanity from the dirt man Genesis one point of reference comes to an end, when everyone dies and so after this point death ends because the is no human left around to die, that is all have died.

Notice also the wiping of tears along with mourning of people dying also ends suggesting that death is no longer in play and that everyone has died and either have entered in the first resurrection or have been thrown in the lake of fire. Scriptures states that those who do not take part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of the dead will finally end up in the lake of fire. So the second death on the lake of fire is for those who have passed from this earthly life and had not entered in the first resurrection and so remained in hell until death and hell were thrown in the lake of fire at the seventh trumpet coinciding with the end of the great harvest of God. The second coming of Christ when he blows the trumpet of God (seventh trumpet) is when the harvest ends and what remains and continues from eternity to entity is the heavenly measured inner court, who cannot die and who are during the harvest before Christ's second coming inaccessible to Satan and the earthly beast.

So the only crowd of Christ who will face off with the beast are the witnesses of the Great Commission, the church. Notice the two witnesses are said to prophesy, meaning preach the gospel for a prescribed time frame before they are eliminated by the beast at the climax before Christ's coming. The fire that comes from their mouth is the Holy Ghost fire that consumes their enemies heart and brings them as captives to Christ's cause. Jesus sent his disciples in twos to fulfill the symbol of the two witnesses shown on the mount of transfiguration, where the three disciples were told to not tell any man until Christ breathed on them the Holy Ghost and sent them off in twos as part of the great commission to preach the gospel and to reign down fire on the enemies who reject the gospel. This is the flying scroll that comes down from heaven and is preached by the church congregation mentioned in Zechariah 5:1. The church is the symbol of Moses and Elijah and this holy city towards the end will be trampled by non believers according to the fall in away mention in Thessalonians.

I can't top that.

Maybe the Lord will provide another prophet to help me understand what I thoughT I understood.

As for now - with only the Holy Spirit to guide me - I'll leave these things to you and yours and let the Lord sort it out when He returns (AT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH ).

 

[Jan001]

You have created a juxtaposition where none exist. Freely choosing to do the Father's will is conforming His own will to align with the Father's. "Nevertheless not My will but Thine be done"

Jesus as a man in his human nature personally chose to conform His own human will to God's will. Jesus as one of the three Persons in the Trinity of God has the same exact will as the Father's will and the Holy Spirit's will. They all agree about all things at all times because they are one God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Jesus as a man in his human nature personally chose to conform His own human will to God's will. Jesus as one of the three Persons in the Trinity of God has the same exact will as the Father's will and the Holy Spirit's will. They all agree about all things at all times because they are one God.

Except that as a human will Jesus was not willing to take the cup of the cross of suffering upon Himself until He had wrestled it into conformity. His flesh was repulsed by what He had to endure.

 

[Jan001]

Except that as a human will Jesus was not willing to take the cup of the cross of suffering upon Himself until He had wrestled it into conformity. His flesh was repulsed by what He had to endure.

Jesus still freely chose to conform His human will to His Father's will. God the Father did not force Jesus to conform his human will to God's will. Jesus freely chose to suffer and die for the forgiveness of sins. It is His sacrifice which redeemed the world from Adam's sin.

 

[Fozzy]

I could be mistaken, but I thought all Evangelicals basically ascribe to some form of "predestination" as part of their doctrinal belief.

A thorny issue. Different Christians believe totally different things about what predestination means. A key verse is:
Romans 8:29New International Version (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Here predestination is a future destiny to be conformed to the image of his son, just as it says. However a minority take this to means predestination to salvation before the beginning of the world. With the implied belief system that God also predestined all those who would never believe. And as God did this before these people were ever born, God in actuality predestined them for hell. This is the Dark Side of Calvinism - a title of very well researched book available free online.

So yes, as you say above - some form of "predestination".

 

[Jan001]

A thorny issue. Different Christians believe totally different things about what predestination means. A key verse is:
Romans 8:29New International Version (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Here predestination is a future destiny to be conformed to the image of his son, just as it says. However a minority take this to means predestination to salvation before the beginning of the world. With the implied belief system that God also predestined all those who would never believe. And as God did this before these people were ever born, God in actuality predestined them for hell. This is the Dark Side of Calvinism - a title of very well researched book available free online.

So yes, as you say above - some form of "predestination".

Before the foundation of the world, God already knew what every freely chosen action of every human person would be. God also knew exactly which ones of these persons He would find still faithful to Him at the time of their death, and it is only these faithful-until-death persons that He predestined to eternal life. It is only these faithful-until-death persons that He put into His hand. God knows who these faithful-until-death persons are, but we do not.