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That reminds me of the response of the Archbishop of Canterbury who was asked something like the following: "Where was your church before the Protestant Reformation?" The reply: "Where was your face before you washed it?"When Barry McGuire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_McGuire was first saved, some people said that he had been brainwashed and his response to them was; "that's fine my dirty old brains needed a good washing."
Now there we have the truth.Its more of a heartwashing than a brainwashing.
Again, I cannot speak about time in God’s realm. It has been shown and not disproven over the last 100 years “time is relative” in man’s world. The “moment” God chose anything for man can be all the same “moment” for everything happening with man. Again, it would all be like history for God, knowing what autonomous free will choices we made without God making them for us or we were not forced to make them, since they are the choices we made.
God’s choice to make a particular human and that person’s free will choices would always be known throughout human time, but maybe not always in the sequence of events in God’s heavenly spiritual time or maybe God chose not to know in His time frame some things.
Fair enough, but I see scripture behind hard determination without the need for real time micro-management (puppeteering).Yes. My feeling about this discussion/thread is that the idea of every last thing being scripted in advance by God seems to be based upon logic and consistency, whereas the idea that God has chosen his Elect to receive saving Faith--just that--is much more easily accepted for the reason that it is a concept that has Scripture behind it.
I see it all as an attempt to preserve a false sense of self sovereignty. It presumes God's involuntary or voluntary ignorance of what He Himself created, either while He was creating, or after, such that He would have to look into and at, in order to see what He Himself created.Folks, we're just spinning our wheels on this time frame speculation stuff. All we are capable of doing is to decide if God predestines people to salvation or not and, even then, we aren't given to know who is "in" and who isn't. In addition, we ought to live our lives as believers in exactly the same way, whether predestination is true or not.
That is a huge misinterpretation of scripture. Christ is pointing out that they weren't doing it in his name. It is like the tax man and the pharisee praying. The tax man went into a quiet corner and prayed to God quietly, the pharisee prayed out loud so everyone could hear him. The tax man was humble before God the pharisee wasn't and because of this the tax man was more likely to enter heaven than the pharisee.
Perhaps"I never knew you" is the refutation of their claim to have acted in His name.Scripture states that indeed they did do all the following things in Jesus' name:
Matthew 7:22The problem is that they also did evil things and because they did not repent of their evildoing before death, they are not approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Please note that Jesus did not contradict their claims that they prophesied in His name, drove out demons in His name, and performed many miracles in His name.
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" niv
Absolutely. Adding that speculation seems to me mainly a technique used by the unlimited Freewill folks to ridicule the idea of Election.Fair enough, but I see scripture behind hard determination without the need for real time micro-management (puppeteering).
Agreed, although I am inclined towards the idea that the plan does include selecting certain individuals, not just something that's overall or general.I see foreknowledge as a result of planning previous to creating, not from just being able to see what happened in His own act of creation. So predestination is just a ten dollar synonym for "plan".
There is nothing in your claim that salvation involves "WORKS" Christ died on the cross to forgive ALL of our sins and there is no "work" that will in any way pay or cancel out sin.
Ephesians 2:4-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
4 But God which is rich in mercy, through his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead by sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace ye are saved,
......
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.
You do realize that anything other than Christs blood is a "work" don't you?
Christ Himself and the apostles are my Christian forefathers. The bible I have is written by various men influenced by God Himself through the Holy Spirit. and preserved by God Himself.
2 Peter 1:211599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Ghost.
Once again the bible doesn't support your claims the bible came through the your "catholic" church nor did they have any hand in writing anything in it.
Sure you did several times.......you seem to have memory problems about your claims eh? After all your claim is that the laws you were referring to were "Moses laws". So who's laws are they Moses or God's?
Based on your interpretation we have a pretty stark contradiction. "Will be saved" directly states future tense, which means exactly what it says "...will be...." Calling on His Name is very different than calling fruitlessly Him Lord [and not meaning it].
See the Romans 10 verse in context:
11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]
To "call on Him" is not the same as to simply call Him Lord. See that true belief is also required. An atheist can jokingly call Him Lord sarcastically, is that person saved? Obviously not.
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS AN EVIL DOING CHRISTIAN
How many people were hunted down by the catholic church and burned at the stake for making the bible available to the common people? Foxes Book of the Martyrs mentions several.
I'm sure you don't, but it nevertheless is the case that the Catholics who fashioned the Councils and the Creed were primarily the Catholics we now identify as the Eastern Orthodox, and not so much the Roman Catholics.
When God changed the heart of Pharaoh and the army against Joshua (Joshua 11:20) wouldn't you say that is the Lord directing the "steps" of non-believers? Paul speaks of the Lord raising Pharaoh up for a purpose in Romans 9.
Perhaps"I never knew you" is the refutation of their claim to have acted in His name.
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