Predestination (I think...)

[trav0127]

Greetings all! This forum is really neat.




I was reading something recently that got me thinking really hard about this. I am not very well read in the bible, and can't seem to find this issue addressed in a direct manner.


The question:

Is everything that happens in the world, SPECIFICALLY, the actions of every person, decided by God? I am confused between God's will and man's. I thought we had "free will" in the sense that we choose our actions, like accepting Christ. But, how does that fit with God's will?

An example or two:

The things that happen that we dislike, but are a direct result of another persons actions. Do people get murdered because it is God's will, or because someone murdered them. Is it ever God's will to hurt people like that?

How about violence. Is it God's will that a person assaults another, and maims him or her for life?

 

[LuckyCharm]

Originally posted by trav0127

The question:

Is everything that happens in the world, SPECIFICALLY, the actions of every person, decided by God? I am confused between God's will and man's. I thought we had "free will" in the sense that we choose our actions, like accepting Christ. But, how does that fit with God's will?

I know where you're coming from, and I've struggled with this myself long and hard.

Fact is, God is in control, and anything that happens, even if through human free will, is permitted by Him. Otherwise, it couldn't happen.

It might be hard for us to understand at the time, but in hindsight, we can usually see the Lord's leading.

Peace be with you...

~~Cheryl

 

[LouisBooth]

The docterine of predestination states that the end point is set but the path is not.

 

[Andrew]

Predestination in the Bible has to do with salvation (another reason for OSAS), and not with anything and everything that goes on in the world. So I wld just leave it in the context of salvation.

Is God in charge? Personally, I believe no..and yes. No in the sense that He works thru the church as He has given authority to the church. eg you dont pray to God and ask him to cast out a demon. You do it yourself, in his Name. So if the church just sits down and does nothing, nothing happens and the devil is free to wreak havoc. But "Yes" He is in control in the sense that in the end, it will all work out.

 

[dependingonhim]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
The docterine of predestination states that the end point is set but the path is not.

I VERY STRONGLY believe that our God was in control in the beginning of this world, is currently in control of each and everything that happens and will be in control in the end.

If God is not in control - who is?? . . . man? . . . satan? . . .chance? No THANK YOU !!

Isaiah 46:9-11

"My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken: truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

In order for God's will to prevail in the end, it MUST prevail today (along the way to the end - the path).

Originally posted by Andrew - So if the church just sits down and does nothing, nothing happens and the devil is free to wreak havoc.

God allows man - free will - to choose which way they will go and whether or not to serve God at each point of our lives. If I choose to do nothing - it does not mean that the devil is free to wreak havoc UNLESS God allows him to (refer to Job). If I fail to follow God's leadings, He will use someone else that will.

We have free will - but are still within God's control.

John 19:10-11
"You do not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you, and I have authority to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above ;"

God does not prevent us from making our own choices - but if those choices are not within His will, he will intervien in some manner. Do you ever wonder why certain people cross your path with the words you needed to hear - at just the time you needed to hear them? Is this chance or God's working?

MY CHOICE - AM I GOING ALLOW HIM TO USE ME TO DO HIS WILL?

El Elyon - the Most High God - RULER OF ALL THE UNIVERSE - He IS in Control!!

 

[Nick_Loves_Abba]

We have to also remember, God won't turn down anyone seeking salvation through Jesus.

 

[trav0127]

Lucky Charm, let me ask for clarification on your answer.

I didn't ask if all things were permitted by God. I asked if all things are decided by God. Or Directed if you like. Is everything that we do written and directed by his hand? Are people murdered because that is something that God has directed to happen? Not simply that he "let" it happen, but that he MADE it happen? Would you agree with that?

Dependingonhim, I am not asking if God achieves his will. I want to know if all things that occur are due to his will, his particular desire.

 

[Received]

aye, nothing but a good word from me: all these are from Proverbs

"the preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord" -- 16:1

"Commit your works to the Lord, and your thoughts will be established" -- 16:3

"A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps" -- 16:9

I advise anyone to read all of Proverbs 16. I do not see a full sense of calvinism or arminianism in play here...but somewhere in-between both.

be blessed

John

 

[dependingonhim]

by Trav0127 - Do people get murdered because it is God's will, or because someone murdered them. Is it ever God's will to hurt people like that?

How about violence. Is it God's will that a person assaults another, and maims him or her for life?

"You shall not murder." Exodus 20:13

The ten commandments and Jesus teachings in the New Testament tell us to love one another, be kind to one another . . . HOW COULD IT BE HIS WILL FOR US TO MURDER ONE ANOTHER OR ASSAULT ONE ANOTHER?

When we do these things to one another - we are choosing to sin. He at times allows these actions, I believe he also at times interviens - BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE AT ANY TIME DOES HE DIRECT US TO MURDER OR HARM ONE ANOTHER.

HE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS OWN WORD.

by TRAV0127 - This forum is really neat.

I agree with you, I also think this forum is relly neat, but only when we are encouraging one another, lifting one another up and trying to help lead each other closer to the Lord.

It is not neat when it seems at times that the posts are full of put downs instead of lifting one another up in the Lord.

I am not very well read in the bible

It is great to get input from fellow Christian brothers and sisters and share with one another - but we want to remember that we should always search God's Word. I encourage you to also keep searching God's Word - He will give you the answers you are seeking.

"And the brethren immediately, through the night, sent forth both Paul and Silas to Berea, who having come, went to the synagogue of the Jews; and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;" Acts 17:10-11
In Christ's Love

 

[dependingonhim]

I advise anyone to read all of Proverbs 16.

John [/B]

Proverbs 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

 

[rkbo]

These are at the edge of my understanding and just when I think I have it totaly figured out there comes something to put me back in the fog......back to faith again......now I feel better.

I look at like this, as God having his sovereign will and his permissive will. Here is an example of his permissive will.
Matt 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(KJV)

Something Jesus wants but he lets them choose for themselves.Now the big verse to think about is this.
Eph 1:3-11
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(KJV)

Your definition of "predestination" is all important in how you read this. It can mean "detemine before" or " ordained". either way it seems some are chosen and by inference some are not. God has set in motion a plan that gives us free will and also keeps Gods sovereign will intact. One way to look at this is you are standing in front of two doors. You have the choice to go through door A or door B. You walk through door A and there is a sign that says " I knew you would choose door A". Now, knowing your choices before you make them is not the same as forcing you to choose. Gods knowledge is such that he can term us as "choosen" before creation, predicated on his foreknowledge..........are we back in the fog again......that ok, let's lean on faith again.......now I feel better (again)

 

[trav0127]

Dependingonhim, you've certainly answered my question.

I apologize if I've offended you. I was asking an honest question. I certainly wasn't trying to discourage anyone or put them down, or lead them away from Christ.

Your comment about reading the Bible is well and true, my comment was for informational purposes, obviously, I need to study His word more. Which probably goes for all of us.

rkbo, your separation of God's will into the "soverign" and "permissive" was very enlightening, I had not thought of it that way. However, the last paragraph about the door and His knowing our choice, started to lose me. I am sure of God's omnipotence, and omnipresence. I know he know's what I'll do before I do. But, as you point out, his knowing it, and "allowing" it, do not constitute directing it.

 

[dependingonhim]

Originally posted by trav0127
I apologize if I've offended you. I was asking an honest question. I certainly wasn't trying to discourage anyone or put them down, or lead them away from Christ.

Your comment about reading the Bible is well and true, my comment was for informational purposes, obviously, I need to study His word more. Which probably goes for all of us.

TRAV0127

Thank you for your apology and concern, but please know that my post regarding comments on this forum were not directed at you personally. I know you were not trying to discourage anyone or put them down or lead them away from Christ. Your question was a good one - the balance of God's will - Man's freewill and Satan's role are very hard to understand and we all struggle with it.

I also really enjoy the opportunity to discuss the Scriptures in this fashion. Although, I have noticed that some of the responses (not yours particularly) to the posts tend to be more like put downs for believing a certain way.

I agree with you that ALL of us need to be in God's Word daily - then we can bring His glorius Truths to this forum and try to help and encourage each other to a better understanding of them.

I heard a song, cannot remember the name or artist, but one verse is an attitude that ALL of us need to apply:

"I am not someone who claims to know it all trying to tell you what to do. I was once a hungry beggar simply showing you where I found food."



rkbo

Great Scriptures - and I like the illustration with the door. Thank you.


In Christ's Love

 

[LouisBooth]

"I VERY STRONGLY believe that our God was in control in the beginning of this world, is currently in control of each and everything that happens and will be in control in the end. "

I agree, but I don't have to see to each detail to be totally in control of something. For example. If I am babysitting, I can control when the kids eat, when it is nap time..and be in total control of the situation, but when I say, its time to eat, I can't control how many bites they take or how they sit...God sets the end and we fill in the picture with color