Predestination/"Free Will"

Jesus Is Real · Apr 1, 2003

"yet the atonment was limited to those that accept Christ."

rnmomof7,

Are you getting that statement from somewhere?

I know that it IS GOD who chooses, even before we did good or evil. What's your take on this and on your statement.

thanks,
jsisrl

Ragman · Apr 1, 2003

1st April 2003 at 10:51 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #116

Could I ask you how you explain the fact that YOU heard the gospel and responded , when so many do not? How are you different than they are ? Are you smarter or holier? What makes one man walk away while another is moved to believe?

One more question on unlimited atonement. If it was indeed gos plkan and desire that all men hear and respond to the gospel how is it that so many have lived and continue to live outside the hearing of the gospel? Why did God allow that?

There are all kinds of reasons people appear to turn away from God.  Not the least of which is the perverted image of God given to them from limited atonement.  As for am I holier, smarter, etc. than others, no. 

However, what is not taken into consideration in your question is the possibility for people who have not yet responded to respond at the time when they can see and hear.  Eternity is a very, very long time.

If I may, let me note that you seem to be asking questions, that's fine, but not answering them.  Why? 

rnmomof7 · Apr 1, 2003

1st April 2003 at 04:12 PM jsisrl said this in Post #121

"yet the atonment was limited to those that accept Christ."

rnmomof7,

Are you getting that statement from somewhere?

I know that it IS GOD who chooses, even before we did good or evil. What's your take on this and on your statement.

thanks,
jsisrl

The atonment is by its nature limited to those that are the elect. It has no benefit for the non elect. It is often said the atonement was sufficent for all but effective only for the elect.
If it were any other way Jesus would have died never knowing the effect or scope of His death..yet He said "It is finished" Those the Father had given Him He had saved." He then returned them to Him'
_
_Jhn 6:37__ All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
__
_ Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Even those that do not agree with Calvinism limit the atonment to those that profess faith. Calvinism says that God had ordained those that would be saved. God acted and not reacted.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Mat 1:21__ And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mat 26:28__ For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

_Mat 7:14__ Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 22:14__ For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Rom 5:15__ But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

rnmomof7 · Apr 1, 2003

1st April 2003 at 06:24 PM Ragman said this in Post #122

There are all kinds of reasons people appear to turn away from God.  Not the least of which is the perverted image of God given to them from limited atonement.  As for am I holier, smarter, etc. than others, no. 

However, what is not taken into consideration in your question is the possibility for people who have not yet responded to respond at the time when they can see and hear.  Eternity is a very, very long time.

If I may, let me note that you seem to be asking questions, that's fine, but not answering them.  Why? 

Seems to me I have been answering alot of questions

I do not stop hoping till the last breath..God has appointed a time of our salvation..and as in the parable that last will receive the same as the first.

I find it funny that you would think any doctrine could turn one away from the grace of God. Is anyman's word stronger than the grace of God?
I was a 32 year old athesist Roman Catholic..and God found me and knocked me to my knees in my bath room..
There was no altar call , no "just as I am" It was just God and me

Why would someone like myself be graced with the presence of God in my tub..when men sit under the preaching of the word for years and are not moved?

See, there is a difference in why you responded and your neighbor did not..the difference was Gods Grace ..He opened your eyes and heart to hear and respond..

Salvation is not a human act of mans will ..it is a work of gods grace

Ragman · Apr 1, 2003

I am not asserting that the reason people respond is not solely because of God's grace. Not sure where you get that. As for believing that a doctrine can keep someone from God's grace, that certainly is not true. My statement was:

There are all kinds of reasons people appear to turn away from God. Not the least of which is the perverted image of God given to them from limited atonement.

In God's grace you say it wasn't until you were 32 that God "knocked you to your knees in your bathroom". Using your logic, why did God wait 32 years? Maybe it was at that time you were able to see and hear. Why didn't He knock you to your floor at 15 or 20 or 25. He chooses the time that are best for people. That has nothing to do with your power, intellect, strength of will, etc. but with God loving you and picking the time when you were ready to see and hear.

The other question is, how do you know when someone will respond. Because they don't "appear" to be responding to you, doesn't mean they are not, nor that they ever will.

Grace is an act upon the human will, intellect, heart, body and all of our being.

In the verse you quoted from Rom. 5 you want to change the definition of "many" in the middle of the verse. Why?

For if through the offence of one "many" be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto "many"

How many is the many at the beginning of the verse. Now apply that same definition to the many at the end of the verse.

Ragman · Apr 1, 2003

1st April 2003 at 11:21 AM CCWoody said this in Post #117

Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

You can continue to insist that Jesus Christ actually intended and accomplished a complete reconciliation of every single man, woman, and child to Himself to your own harm.  Scriptures clearly contradict this teaching and belief of yours.

You should also know that the Lord has created all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of Doom.

And you may continue to claim that we do not help those who will ultimately perish forever.  Let this slander stain your own cheek if you utter it again.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S.  If you want to come play nice, I have a new thread called Rockin' Doctrin: The Comforts of Calvinism.

Woody:

I do insist that Jesus Christ reconciled the entire human race to His Father.  For this is the Father we see in the face of Jesus Christ.  To deny this is to deny the deity of Christ.  For He is the One in whom everything that has been created consists.  What happens to this One happens to all mankind.  That is why you deny the deity of Jesus Christ with limited atonement.

You have quoted your "wicked unto the day of doom" scripture again.  Personally, I have not found it comfortable establishing doctrine from the Poetic books.

I do believe that the heresy of limited atonement has done terrible harm to countless folks by polluting their image of God.  He is not as you say. 

 

 

FineLinen · Apr 2, 2003

Romans chapter 8 speaks of a people "marked out from the first" or "those on whom He set His heart beforehand", to the intent that they may "be moulded into the image of His Son", or "share the family likeness of His Son." Our Father's Realm, lest any of us should imagine otherwise, is bathed in musterion. All aspects of His glory and grace must come not simply by reading/studying the Ancient Words, but in that same anointing as those who wrote found themselves...."moved" by the Holy Ghost. This walk IN the anointing is an unfolding experience of "be being" leading from one dimension of glory to another and another, and from faith to new dimensions of faith....."from faith to faith."

Our Lord is the Soter of all men! Not a potential soter, but the Soter of the "especially" as well as those who He grasps as the hilasmos of the holos. The groaning creation of Romans 8, "the whole created universe" sighs and throbs with pain. The expectation of which they are experiencing "eager outlook", awaiting the manifestation of the revelation of the sons of God has been placed firmly by the Sovereign Creator within the creature "made subject to vanity." The placement of hupotasso by our Creator Lord into decay/imperfection/futility/bondage of transitoriness comes to us "not willingly", or "not for some deliberate fault of its own." Our Lord takes complete responsibility for such subjection, for it is "by reason of Him" who hupotasso'd it. And what is the hope placed at the foundation of such subjection?

 "And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered/rescued from the shackles of mortality/tyranny of change and decay/slavery to death, and gain the glorious freedom of God's children."

 

Abraham's Seed Ministering To Those Out Of The Way

http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=BIBLE&read=20515

  

Hail To The Lord's Anointed!

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/a/haillord.htm

 

FineLinen · Apr 2, 2003

Romans 8:20,21

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.

BECAUSE

The creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

"The creature was made subject"

Subject= Hupotasso =

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5293&version=

"Subject to vanity"

Vanity= Mataiotes=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3153&version=

"Not willingly"

Willingly= Heknon=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1635&version=

"But by reason of Him"=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=

"By reason of Him who subjected"

Subjected= Hupotasso=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5293&version=

"Subjected the same in hope"

Hope= Elpis=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1680&version=

BECAUSE....BECAUSE......BECAUSE.....BECAUSE....BECAUSE

"The creature itself also shall be delivered"

Delivered= Eleutheroo=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1659&version=

"Delivered from the bondage of corruption"

Bondage= Douleia=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1397&version=

"The bondage of corruption"

Corruption= Phthora=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5356&version=

"From the bondage of corruption into the glorious"

Glorious= Doxa=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1391&version=

"Glorious liberty"

Liberty= Eleutheria=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1657&version=

"The glorious liberty of the children of God."

 

Thine Oh Lord Is The Greatness

http://newhopemusic.com/thine.htm

 

CCWoody · Apr 2, 2003

1st April 2003 at 07:53 PM Ragman said this in Post #126

Woody:

I do insist that Jesus Christ reconciled the entire human race to His Father.  For this is the Father we see in the face of Jesus Christ.  To deny this is to deny the deity of Christ.  For He is the One in whom everything that has been created consists.  What happens to this One happens to all mankind.  That is why you deny the deity of Jesus Christ with limited atonement.

You have quoted your "wicked unto the day of doom" scripture again.  Personally, I have not found it comfortable establishing doctrine from the Poetic books.

I do believe that the heresy of limited atonement has done terrible harm to countless folks by polluting their image of God.  He is not as you say. 

 

 

Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Your friendly neighborhhod Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

rnmomof7 · Apr 2, 2003

1st April 2003 at 08:40 PM Ragman said this in Post #125

I am not asserting that the reason people respond is not solely because of God's grace. Not sure where you get that. As for believing that a doctrine can keep someone from God's grace, that certainly is not true. My statement was:

There are all kinds of reasons people appear to turn away from God. Not the least of which is the perverted image of God given to them from limited atonement.

When do you believe Gods grace acts? And how? Does man will preceed Gods in this ? Is man in control of the grace of God?

In God's grace you say it wasn't until you were 32 that God "knocked you to your knees in your bathroom". Using your logic, why did God wait 32 years? Maybe it was at that time you were able to see and hear. Why didn't He knock you to your floor at 15 or 20 or 25. He chooses the time that are best for people. That has nothing to do with your power, intellect, strength of will, etc. but with God loving you and picking the time when you were ready to see and hear.

Click to expand...

The Bible teaches that for evey thing there is a season ...That was Gods ordained moment not mine..I was not "looking" when He found me..
1Jo 4:10__ Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

The other question is, how do you know when someone will respond. Because they don't "appear" to be responding to you, doesn't mean they are not, nor that they ever will.

Click to expand...

We agree ,God has a time for everything. Some plant and some water ,but it is God that gives the increase. None of us know what God will chose to bring to mind or at what point.
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

No one will "respond "to me..I can not save anyone. He will respond to Gods grace.

Grace is an act upon the human will, intellect, heart, body and all of our being.

Click to expand...

Yes the grace of God changes everything. We are new creations ..with a new heart and mind and will. but untill we have the new will the old man rules and the old man will never "choose" God

In the verse you quoted from Rom. 5 you want to change the definition of "many" in the middle of the verse. Why?

Click to expand...

I changed nothing that was a paste from the KJV

Rom 5:15__ But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. KJV

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. NAS

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.RSV

Rom 5:15 But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many; Youngs literal translation

As you see MANY is the operative word Rag man. Many will be dead because of the sin of Adam..but not all, many will be savbed by the propitiation of Chrsit

rnmomof7 · Apr 2, 2003

1st April 2003 at 08:53 PM Ragman said this in Post #126

Woody:

I do insist that Jesus Christ reconciled the entire human race to His Father.  For this is the Father we see in the face of Jesus Christ.  To deny this is to deny the deity of Christ.  For He is the One in whom everything that has been created consists.  What happens to this One happens to all mankind.  That is why you deny the deity of Jesus Christ with limited atonement.

You have quoted your "wicked unto the day of doom" scripture again.  Personally, I have not found it comfortable establishing doctrine from the Poetic books.

I do believe that the heresy of limited atonement has done terrible harm to countless folks by polluting their image of God.  He is not as you say. 

 

 

Do you believe that God is a liar? Would he send into the flames of hell men that the blood of Christ washed clean? Does God demand double payment from some men?

bird · Apr 2, 2003

dear momof7,

so am i understanding that you are saying that not everyone was implicated in what happened with adam?

bird

rnmomof7 · Apr 2, 2003

2nd April 2003 at 04:22 PM bird said this in Post #132

dear momof7,

so am i understanding that you are saying that not everyone was implicated in what happened with adam?

bird

No all men fell in Adam..

bird · Apr 2, 2003

dear momof7,

 

so  the "many" in rom. 5:15 means "all" when it pertains to adam, but not christ?

 

bird

CCWoody · Apr 2, 2003

2nd April 2003 at 06:41 PM bird said this in Post #134

dear momof7,

 

so  the "many" in rom. 5:15 means "all" when it pertains to adam, but not christ?

 

bird

The "ALL" who were in Adam
The "ALL" who are in Christ.

They are two different groups of people, the one being a subset of the other.

Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Spiderrr · Apr 2, 2003

dear momof7,

so the "many" in rom. 5:15 means "all" when it pertains to adam, but not christ?

bird

Bird, "all" pertaining to Adam is all inclusive. All in relation to the last Adam is a metonymy or a synecdoche.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were many sinners, so too, through the obedience of one the mass of mankind will be made righteous."

bird · Apr 2, 2003

spiderrr, woody,

thank you for your responses....would i be correct in assuming that your answers are in agreement? and if so, am i to conclude that adam's sin is more far reaching, pervasive and effective than the saving power of the incarnate son?

bird

CCWoody · Apr 2, 2003

2nd April 2003 at 08:56 PM bird said this in Post #137

spiderrr, woody,

thank you for your responses....would i be correct in assuming that your answers are in agreement? and if so, am i to conclude that adam's sin is more far reaching, pervasive and effective than the saving power of the incarnate son?

bird

No you would not be correct. The Saving Power of the Son is just as effective in reconciling a man as Adam's sin was in causing all men to fall.

Just as all who were in Adam died...
So all who are in Christ shall live.

You seem to be under the incorrect impression that the Saving Power of the Son is unable to save those for whom it was mean't to save.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

rnmomof7 · Apr 2, 2003

2nd April 2003 at 09:56 PM bird said this in Post #137

spiderrr, woody,

thank you for your responses....would i be correct in assuming that your answers are in agreement? and if so, am i to conclude that adam's sin is more far reaching, pervasive and effective than the saving power of the incarnate son?

bird

The blood of Christ was sufficent for all but effective only for the elect..

bird we have met before have we not?

bird · Apr 2, 2003

3rd April 2003 at 03:13 AM CCWoody said this in Post #138

No you would not be correct. The Saving Power of the Son is just as effective in reconciling a man as Adam's sin was in causing all men to fall.

Just as all who were in Adam died...
So all who are in Christ shall live.

You seem to be under the incorrect impression that the Saving Power of the Son is unable to save those for whom it was mean't to save.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

dear woody,

 

i'm not sure i got that last statement.     so are you saying that everyone, all, the whole human race fell in a  man named adam?   how does that work?

 

bird

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