Predestination, Free Will, and a 'Heavenly Language'.

[Mark Quayle]

What I am saying is that there is inconsistency in the idea that "God Planned everything", because if he planned acts of fornication, or adultery (Solomon), then it could not be said:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

And in Genisis, God was shocked by how bad man had become. God could only be shocked if man had free will choices, God did not plan, or predestinate, their behavior.

Gen 6:5-7 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

The deaf are very physically expressive when doing sign language. I once saw a deaf pastor trying to describe the notion of God being shocked and dismayed—Omnicient Almighty God— whose world of men had run out of control. Hilarious. Genesis doesn't say God was shocked.

The logic that James ("Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man") cannot be consistent with God planning everything, is faulty. If in no other way, God is logically separated by degrees from most results. He is first cause, causing effects that cause further effects, etc. The same thing applies to 'free will'. We certainly do choose, but God chose first.

 

[Mark Quayle]

honestly, your logic is faulty, God being first cause does not make God responsible for everything that happens, I guess you could blame God for giving man free will but blaming God for what man does with that free will is going too far.

That's why I said, "Ok, remove the wording of "'responsible' for sin" from your library wherever it has been applied to God. It changes nothing." If one charges God with causing (indirectly, but intentionally) that sin be, or causes (indirectly, but intentionally) that specific sins are committed by devils or men, God's only problem would be the attitude of "charge" or "blame" that implies God's wrongdoing. God can do whatever he does without blame. That does not limit what God does, but designates his right to do as he will.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I'd say God is light and truth, and love, He casts no shadow, and does not lie or move hate for creation.

God did not move to cause or create evil, not directly. This reminds me of a computer program that learns to play chess, by trial and error, and it gains hindsight used later as foresight. The computer is fast, knows every move, looks ahead and usually wins.

God's hands made the characters of light, but Satan He foresaw. Now He saw many Satan's that could have been worse, thinking into infinite numbers of possibilities, but He did not push Him. I'd say there was no other option with less evil consequences with God wanting free willed love and obedience.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God foresaw not only all the right actions of the angels of light but also other possibilities of angels, maybe all possible names of angels exist, Michael, Gabriel, Rafael... Infinity. It is a mystery in God's mind.

God knows what the last words any person will utter on Earth will be, just before the Sun engulfs it in about five billion years from now.

In this time, God knows the interaction of the obedient with the angels of death, temptations, attacks, responses... God's light in us doesn't simply make us a caused being and character, but brings out our true self and makes us free, to choose God off ourselves and not by being controlled...

 

[TedT]

Our wills, human and angel and devil, are ALWAYS subordinate to God's plans. And not because we will it to be so.

Let's be a bit more precise:
ImCo
all evil choices go against GOD's purpose, HIS plan for our creation which was to enjoy a marriage with us, a complete unity of a full communion of emotion (love) and communication (telepathy, like the angels enjoy) within all of created reality between everyone within the marriage, for eternity.

Only after the judgement has ceased to be postponed will we finally get to experience the purpose, the reason for our creation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'd say God is light and truth, and love, He casts no shadow, and does not lie or move hate for creation.

God did not move to cause or create evil, not directly. This reminds me of a computer program that learns to play chess, by trial and error, and it gains hindsight used later as foresight. The computer is fast, knows every move, looks ahead and usually wins.

God's hands made the characters of light, but Satan He foresaw. Now He saw many Satan's that could have been worse, thinking into infinite numbers of possibilities, but He did not push Him. I'd say there was no other option with less evil consequences with God wanting free willed love and obedience.

Not to deny what you are saying, but it is described from only the Human POV. For God to do (and consistent with the attribute known as The Simplicity of God), is not done by reasoning we describe the way we do. God doesn't need to consider possible scenarios —he simply does what he does, and it is so. It is we, who must include all these peripherals. A quote from I don't know whom, but RC Sproul is known to quote it, goes something like this: 'Chance' is just a placeholder for, "I don't know".

Even what we call, and what the Bible even refers to as such, for the sake of human understanding, "God's plan", is a bow to our limited point of view. As far as I can tell, there is no reason to think God must actually go through a mental process, to consider anything before doing. He is not limited by 'possibles'. There is no principle external to himself by which he is governed.

 

[TedT]

Satan's free will is the extraordinary problem. He has extreme pride and adultery, from knowing God most well in his day, he wants God's power apart from His character and image. If there is a place outside God's plan and will, it is Satan's heart.

It is beyond me to suppose that GOD's glory, the proof of HIS Divine attributes and power, is so meager that someone could bask in it yet then turn against it to try to claim it for himself while knowing that in fact he is not GOD and will end in hell for his failure!! ??

The only way I can conceive of a person using their free will to pick a fight with YHWH is if HE made CLAIMS to deity without proof and Satan decided HE was pulling a scam and was no better than anyone else so he repudiated HIM. Since he considered YHWH to be liar a he might also have considered HIM to be the first sinner in creation and therefore the most evil person in creation which would be the unforgivable sin.

Why would GOD hide the proof of HIS glory?
Is not the heavenly state the culmination of all life? Is not the heavenly state characterized as the marriage of Christ and HIS Church: Revelation 19:6-7 “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready” Is not the sexual union of married people symbolic of the spiritual unity with GOD of those married to GOD?

If HE wanted to enter a marriage union with HIS creation HIS proposal would have to be accepted by our free will, that is, not coerced by anything. IF we saw HIS glory, proof of HIS Deity, HIS promises of heaven and HIS warnings of hell, who could reject HIS marriage proposal and go to hell?? HE had to hide HIS glory or a true marriage with us would be impossible.

A marriage that is forced is not a marriage but a rape.
A marriage that is built on tricking the bride into not understanding that she could say No! is not a marriage at all but a fraud.

Therefore for HIS purpose for us to enter into the communion of a unity with us called marriage to be real, it must have been as a offered to us as a proposal of marriage which we had the right and understanding to accept or reject by our free will.

Those who accepted HIS proposal on faith without proof (and the attenuating promise of salvation if we should ever fall into sin) were chosen to be HIS bride, a promise of marriage called election.

Those who rejected HIS proposal of marriage on faith without proof HE was lying immediately became enslaved to the addictive quality of evil with no chance of salvation as they were rejecting the ONLY ONE who could free them from their addiction, that is, by repudiating HIM as their GOD and Saviour believing HIM to be a liar and a false god motivated by an evil megalomania, they sinned the unforgivable sin and were condemned to banishment from all of created reality to the outer darkness from that second on.

No one was created as evil as HE had no reason or need for evil people in HIS purpose for finding a Bride. HE could not and would never marry an evil person. Those of you who know this to be true must redefine that part of your theologies which mangle this truth. GOD is love and in HIM is no evil at all for it to come out: a stream of life giving water cannot give forth stagnant or brackish water.

I champion GOD’s holiness:
- GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil for any reason.
- All evil is creature created by their true free will.

I champion our Free will:
- All spirits created in the image of GOD were created with the ability to make true free will decisions and had an equal opportunity and ability to choose for HIM or against HIM.
- Only sinners have no free will unless/until they are reborn.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Not to deny what you are saying, but it is described from only the Human POV. For God to do (and consistent with the attribute known as The Simplicity of God), is not done by reasoning we describe the way we do. God doesn't need to consider possible scenarios —he simply does what he does, and it is so. It is we, who must include all these peripherals. A quote from I don't know whom, but RC Sproul is known to quote it, goes something like this: 'Chance' is just a placeholder for, "I don't know".

Even what we call, and what the Bible even refers to as such, for the sake of human understanding, "God's plan", is a bow to our limited point of view. As far as I can tell, there is no reason to think God must actually go through a mental process, to consider anything before doing. He is not limited by 'possibles'. There is no principle external to himself by which he is governed.

Any of us here can only provide a human point of view. And I think we are all polite to use simplicity rather than to write a thesis post over several pages.

It would seem from this post that you think we cannot determine any idea of how evil came about.

The Apostles Peter, John and Paul were human and any view instilled in them, was from God and then a human view for humans to teach. Placed in human hearts.

 

[disciple Clint]

That's why I said, "Ok, remove the wording of "'responsible' for sin" from your library wherever it has been applied to God. It changes nothing." If one charges God with causing (indirectly, but intentionally) that sin be, or causes (indirectly, but intentionally) that specific sins are committed by devils or men, God's only problem would be the attitude of "charge" or "blame" that implies God's wrongdoing. God can do whatever he does without blame. That does not limit what God does, but designates his right to do as he will.

why do I keep getting the impression that it is useless to argue just for the sake of arguing without any consideration of the theological realities.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Any of us here can only provide a human point of view. And I think we are all polite to use simplicity rather than to write a thesis post over several pages.

It would seem from this post that you think we cannot determine any idea of how evil came about.

The Apostles Peter, John and Paul were human and any view instilled in them, was from God and then a human view for humans to teach. Placed in human hearts.

And what the apostles wrote in Scripture is accurate and authoritative and useful, and will will not return to God void, but will accomplish the purpose for which God sent it. That doesn't mean that they themselves won't be (weren't) astounded, when they see (saw) God as he is, when they fully realize(d) what the words they wrote are really about.

No, I don't think we can't have any idea how evil came about. But healthy skepticism of our own view of the matter is always good to keep. We can have a really good idea of most things, though they are useful, perhaps, more than quite accurate. As for evil, I think God tells us rather plainly and simply in the Scriptures how it comes about, yet I doubt any of us completely understands what he said.