Predestination, Free Will, and a 'Heavenly Language'.

[Mark Quayle]

Many times, in many threads concerning, in particular, the question of whether God deciding all things makes him the one to blame for sin, and turns erstwhile free-willing agents into robots programmed to 'choose' what they do, and makes their choices mere illusion. In these threads, I have tried many times to explain what I do not myself understand in full (and still I happily admit that I do not) that God's economy is not ours, and that he is as much beyond us as the heavens are beyond the earth. I have tried to point out what a striking difference it is, and how our thinking is always based on false premises. There are doubtless better arguments for the purpose of showing the worthiness of the doctrine of predestination, but for the most part they seem ineffective in convincing anyone who doesn't want to see it.

Today, it occurs to me, that the following notion (which may well be misleading, so I leave it as speculation only, though I think it could be well supported by scripture), could be a useful way to get my point across. I point it out because I hope some will see that our anthropomorphic logic concerning "the way of things" concerning the work and person of God, simply does not apply to God in everything.

Some time back some of us participated in a thread where the difference between a possible Heavenly Language and any other language(s) was discussed. Today I was thinking about the way that God speaking caused things to happen:

It may well be, that what God speaks, IS the thing that came to pass.

IF the language of God is that different from human language, where our words are like containers in which to carry mere concepts poorly understood, then where is the consideration that his planning something to happen (which therefore will certainly happen), with every smallest detail planned, takes away actual choice? Or to look at it from the other direction, how do the many actions and reactions, choices and consequences, causes and effects that we commonly see and consider, all things that we might even consider as naturalism, were we atheists —how do these things compare with how he does things?

God, from a philosophical point of view, does no more and no less plan every detail, than that he spoke every fact, past, present and future, into existence. He need not plan, and then when his plan seems good, execute the plan. He need only speak. Other posters commenting here have said that to God, it is all the present. I believe he spoke his dwelling place into being, and the redeemed, the elect, are that place. He sees it as already done. He spoke it, and it is fact. How can anyone rate, then, whether every detail is also predestined to happen? The question does not show up on the scale of God's economy. That fact that we must line up cause and effect in a way that makes sense to us, is no measure of the validity of our thinking.

 

[enoob57]

The problem here is God expects us to be able to reason with Him in soteriology

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

This delves into God's mind and heart powers and reasoning into infinite time and detail, and God sometimes as with the pre-flood faithful and Abraham and Moses engages with free wills and minds in the fourth dimension. It is beyond understanding.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The problem here is God expects us to be able to reason with Him in soteriology

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

How is that a problem with what I said?

 

[Mark Quayle]

This delves into God's mind and heart powers and reasoning into infinite time and detail, and God sometimes as with the pre-flood faithful and Abraham and Moses engages with free wills and minds in the fourth dimension. It is beyond understanding.

What are 'free wills' in your use of the term in your post? Because if I follow what you are saying, you are anthropomorphizing what God does.

Our wills, human and angel and devil, are ALWAYS subordinate to God's plans. And not because we will it to be so.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

What are 'free wills' in your use of the term in your post? Because if I follow what you are saying, you are anthropomorphizing what God does.

Our wills, human and angel and devil, are ALWAYS subordinate to God's plans. And not because we will it to be so.

Satan's free will is the extraordinary problem. He has extreme pride and adultery, from knowing God most well in his day, he wants God's power apart from His character and image. If there is a place outside God's plan and will, it is Satan's heart.

God and Satan polarize the characters that are young, pulling us to light or darkness.

We depend on our guardian angels and God, not to be forced into darkness, and God tests us.

From above space and time God wants to change our futures for the better as with Abram to Abraham.

Free will means God will not force Satan or anyone to love Him. Even where there is evil, God knows the end from the beginning and has infinite power, and is in control. Look at AIDS and Covid 19, from Satan, but some good came of it.

God can change your will and your heart set, so you love Him. It seems it takes intercession.

Satan instilled slavery to sin in our natures, but Christ saves us, so we can begin to do do more good than harm, and later be completely able to know all good from all evil... and yet never choose evil and live forever completely free.

Satan cannot overpower holy angels so he uses legality and tricks, especially blindness and deceit.

Christ's cross affords the power to change our wills. Always gently for God never forces intimacy on a soul or angel.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

What are 'free wills' in your use of the term in your post? Because if I follow what you are saying, you are anthropomorphizing what God does.

Our wills, human and angel and devil, are ALWAYS subordinate to God's plans. And not because we will it to be so.

God would not start creating free will unless in accordance with His benevolent foresight. I agree.

God engaged with humans in Abraham and Moses... an intense looking and relating together with recreating and impressing knowledge... Then was the incarnation of the Son and His bearing the weight of all sin and obey nevertheless. So in His blood is freedom from sin.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Free will means God will not force Satan or anyone to love Him.

Very important fact!
Thanks for sharing.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

On free will,
Hebrews 6:6 and Catholic teachings say that we the good works we do come from the Holy Spirit, but Hindus also do good works.

Counter to Martin Luther the Catholics taught that justification does not come by faith alone, but only as or after the baptized do good works do they become righteous. Now they teach after we receive the Spirit we are right but good works must follow.

God doesn't want people to commit the eternal sin, but if they do, even if both want repentance and forgiveness, it does not happen, with the hearts closed to all grace. Free will is compromised. Enslaved.

 

[Halbhh]

Many times, in many threads concerning, in particular, the question of whether God deciding all things makes him the one to blame for sin, and turns erstwhile free-willing agents into robots programmed to 'choose' what they do, and makes their choices mere illusion. In these threads, I have tried many times to explain what I do not myself understand in full (and still I happily admit that I do not) that God's economy is not ours, and that he is as much beyond us as the heavens are beyond the earth. I have tried to point out what a striking difference it is, and how our thinking is always based on false premises. There are doubtless better arguments for the purpose of showing the worthiness of the doctrine of predestination, but for the most part they seem ineffective in convincing anyone who doesn't want to see it.

Today, it occurs to me, that the following notion (which may well be misleading, so I leave it as speculation only, though I think it could be well supported by scripture), could be a useful way to get my point across. I point it out because I hope some will see that our anthropomorphic logic concerning "the way of things" concerning the work and person of God, simply does not apply to God in everything.

Some time back some of us participated in a thread where the difference between a possible Heavenly Language and any other language(s) was discussed. Today I was thinking about the way that God speaking caused things to happen:

It may well be, that what God speaks, IS the thing that came to pass.

IF the language of God is that different from human language, where our words are like containers in which to carry mere concepts poorly understood, then where is the consideration that his planning something to happen (which therefore will certainly happen), with every smallest detail planned, takes away actual choice? Or to look at it from the other direction, how do the many actions and reactions, choices and consequences, causes and effects that we commonly see and consider, all things that we might even consider as naturalism, were we atheists —how do these things compare with how he does things?

God, from a philosophical point of view, does no more and no less plan every detail, than that he spoke every fact, past, present and future, into existence. He need not plan, and then when his plan seems good, execute the plan. He need only speak. Other posters commenting here have said that to God, it is all the present. I believe he spoke his dwelling place into being, and the redeemed, the elect, are that place. He sees it as already done. He spoke it, and it is fact. How can anyone rate, then, whether every detail is also predestined to happen? The question does not show up on the scale of God's economy. That fact that we must line up cause and effect in a way that makes sense to us, is no measure of the validity of our thinking.

Let me highlight this entry point:

There are doubtless better arguments for the purpose of showing the worthiness of the doctrine of predestination,

Deep topic, but I'll try to say only what's needed to be complete on it.

But when someone points out that God gave us free will, and even seems to have intentionally made us to be like Himself --

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?

But pointing out we have free will and aren't robotic, but can make real choices still is not saying or implying we are not predestined.

Rather, we have free will, are unpredictable, and are also predestined --

God predestined our salvation by deciding and then accomplishing that all who chose to turn to Christ in faith and repentance will be saved!

!

Glory to God in the Highest.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us.... (Ephesians chapter 1)

Before the world, God planned for our salvation. For any who would believe:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

And so the reason we understand we do have real choice, real freedom to choose, is because the scriptures tells us so over and over, in every instruction to us. The only way to make sense of instructions to us is to recognize that God gave us instructions because we can choose to do them, or refuse. (as illustrated in Deuteronomy 28 NIV
1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock....

5 our basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

...)

 

[Halbhh]

God, from a philosophical point of view, does no more and no less plan every detail, than that he spoke every fact, past, present and future, into existence.

See, the problem with all our choices already being predestined also, is that then most all of scripture would become only decoration, without consequence.

So for example
Deuteronomy 28:1 "Now if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God and are careful to follow all His commandments I am giving you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

would become an invalid wording, because it has the word "If" (as translated from

Now
וְהָיָ֗ה (wə·hā·yāh)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Conjunctive perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 1961: To fall out, come to pass, become, be

if
אִם־ (’im-)
Conjunction
Strong's 518: Lo!, whether?, if, although, Oh that!, when, not

 

[Mark Quayle]

Satan's free will is the extraordinary problem. He has extreme pride and adultery, from knowing God most well in his day, he wants God's power apart from His character and image. If there is a place outside God's plan and will, it is Satan's heart.

How can anything be outside of God's plan? Are you saying something just somehow happened, that God did not intend from the beginning to happen, even though he created everything, knowing it would happen?

Are you saying that God is subject to principles external to himself, that supercede his own plans and around which his plans must be made to fit?

God and Satan polarize the characters that are young, pulling us to light or darkness.

Huh? Who are these "characters that are young"? What are you talking about?

From above space and time God wants to change our futures for the better as with Abram to Abraham.

That's poetic, I guess. God wants to do something, but.....?

You place God into our world almost as a fellow creature, subject to the vagaries of fortune or fate, subject to things greater than himself, things that he cannot control.

Free will means God will not force Satan or anyone to love Him. Even where there is evil, God knows the end from the beginning and has infinite power, and is in control. Look at AIDS and Covid 19, from Satan, but some good came of it.

If God has infinite power and control, then how can anything happen he did not plan to happen, if he created, KNOWING it would happen?

God can change your will and your heart set, so you love Him. It seems it takes intercession.

Yes, God can do that, and has done that with all those to whom he chose to do so before now, and will do so for the rest of those to whom he chose to show his particular mercy.

Satan instilled slavery to sin in our natures, but Christ saves us, so we can begin to do do more good than harm, and later be completely able to know all good from all evil... and yet never choose evil and live forever completely free.

Satan cannot overpower holy angels so he uses legality and tricks, especially blindness and deceit.

Christ's cross affords the power to change our wills. Always gently for God never forces intimacy on a soul or angel.

Satan determined somebody's spiritual end? Satan is a pawn. Yet you would remove 'determination of fact' from God's abilities. By the way, I never claim God forces anything, not even that he "forces" anyone to exist. And he is far more gentle than any of us realize.

God would not start creating free will unless in accordance with His benevolent foresight. I agree.

God engaged with humans in Abraham and Moses... an intense looking and relating together with recreating and impressing knowledge... Then was the incarnation of the Son and His bearing the weight of all sin and obey nevertheless. So in His blood is freedom from sin.

That is not agreeing with me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Let me highlight this entry point:

Deep topic, but I'll try to say only what's needed to be complete on it.

But when someone points out that God gave us free will, and even seems to have intentionally made us to be like Himself --

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?

But pointing out we have free will and aren't robotic, but can make real choices still is not saying or implying we are not predestined.

Rather, we have free will, are unpredictable, and are also predestined --

God predestined our salvation by deciding and then accomplishing that all who chose to turn to Christ in faith and repentance will be saved!

!

Glory to God in the Highest.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us.... (Ephesians chapter 1)

Before the world, God planned for our salvation. For any who would believe:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

And so the reason we understand we do have real choice, real freedom to choose, is because the scriptures tells us so over and over, in every instruction to us. The only way to make sense of instructions to us is to recognize that God gave us instructions because we can choose to do them, or refuse. (as illustrated in Deuteronomy 28 NIV
1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock....

5 our basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

...)

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't deny real choice, with real —even eternal— consequences. But the notion that our choices are unpredictable is almost as illogical as to say that they are completely autonomous, altogether uncaused, totally spontaneous, and uninfluenced. God knows precisely what and why we choose what we do, in fact, he was first cause of the chain of causation that led up to us choosing!

 

[Mark Quayle]

See, the problem with all our choices already being predestined also, is that then most all of scripture would become only decoration, without consequence.

So for example
Deuteronomy 28:1 "Now if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God and are careful to follow all His commandments I am giving you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

would become an invalid wording, because it has the word "If" (as translated from

Now
וְהָיָ֗ה (wə·hā·yāh)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Conjunctive perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 1961: To fall out, come to pass, become, be

if
אִם־ (’im-)
Conjunction
Strong's 518: Lo!, whether?, if, although, Oh that!, when, not

The word IF doesn't imply that the alternative to what does happen CAN happen. In fact, you would be hard pressed to prove that ANYTHING can happen, except what does happen!

But it is not only simple logic that shows us this —Scripture too shows us that God is the source of all fact.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

How can anything be outside of God's plan? Are you saying something just somehow happened, that God did not intend from the beginning to happen, even though he created everything, knowing it would happen?

Are you saying that God is subject to principles external to himself, that supercede his own plans and around which his plans must be made to fit?



Huh? Who are these "characters that are young"? What are you talking about?



That's poetic, I guess. God wants to do something, but.....?

You place God into our world almost as a fellow creature, subject to the vagaries of fortune or fate, subject to things greater than himself, things that he cannot control.



If God has infinite power and control, then how can anything happen he did not plan to happen, if he created, KNOWING it would happen?



Yes, God can do that, and has done that with all those to whom he chose to do so before now, and will do so for the rest of those to whom he chose to show his particular mercy.



Satan determined somebody's spiritual end? Satan is a pawn. Yet you would remove 'determination of fact' from God's abilities. By the way, I never claim God forces anything, not even that he "forces" anyone to exist. And he is far more gentle than any of us realize.



That is not agreeing with me.

With regards to Satan I'd say God foreknew but did not want the fall.

God expressed regret in making the antediluvian people. Sometimes God engages with souls and free wills in the fourth dimension.

In creating free will, God did not plan out their courses. Pre-creation, He knew everything ahead and everything among possibilities less pleasing to Him and displeasing and chose to make the collection of us, Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, Adam...

 

[disciple Clint]

Many times, in many threads concerning, in particular, the question of whether God deciding all things makes him the one to blame for sin, and turns erstwhile free-willing agents into robots programmed to 'choose' what they do, and makes their choices mere illusion. In these threads, I have tried many times to explain what I do not myself understand in full (and still I happily admit that I do not) that God's economy is not ours, and that he is as much beyond us as the heavens are beyond the earth. I have tried to point out what a striking difference it is, and how our thinking is always based on false premises. There are doubtless better arguments for the purpose of showing the worthiness of the doctrine of predestination, but for the most part they seem ineffective in convincing anyone who doesn't want to see it.

Today, it occurs to me, that the following notion (which may well be misleading, so I leave it as speculation only, though I think it could be well supported by scripture), could be a useful way to get my point across. I point it out because I hope some will see that our anthropomorphic logic concerning "the way of things" concerning the work and person of God, simply does not apply to God in everything.

Some time back some of us participated in a thread where the difference between a possible Heavenly Language and any other language(s) was discussed. Today I was thinking about the way that God speaking caused things to happen:

It may well be, that what God speaks, IS the thing that came to pass.

IF the language of God is that different from human language, where our words are like containers in which to carry mere concepts poorly understood, then where is the consideration that his planning something to happen (which therefore will certainly happen), with every smallest detail planned, takes away actual choice? Or to look at it from the other direction, how do the many actions and reactions, choices and consequences, causes and effects that we commonly see and consider, all things that we might even consider as naturalism, were we atheists —how do these things compare with how he does things?

God, from a philosophical point of view, does no more and no less plan every detail, than that he spoke every fact, past, present and future, into existence. He need not plan, and then when his plan seems good, execute the plan. He need only speak. Other posters commenting here have said that to God, it is all the present. I believe he spoke his dwelling place into being, and the redeemed, the elect, are that place. He sees it as already done. He spoke it, and it is fact. How can anyone rate, then, whether every detail is also predestined to happen? The question does not show up on the scale of God's economy. That fact that we must line up cause and effect in a way that makes sense to us, is no measure of the validity of our thinking.

I would suggest that God allows things to happen that He has not specifically planed to happen, God is no doubt in control and sovereign but He can accomplish His goals without micromanaging. Which is to say that man can exercise free will and God can still control the outcome of all events.

 

[Halbhh]

The word IF doesn't imply that the alternative to what does happen CAN happen. In fact, you would be hard pressed to prove that ANYTHING can happen, except what does happen!

But it is not only simple logic that shows us this —Scripture too shows us that God is the source of all fact.

ah, it's very very good to read the full passage, which is all the chapter:
Deuteronomy 28 NIV

While this chapter greatly helps anyone understand about half of all the history events in the entire old testament, here we are also noticing God's promises and the consequences he lays out to those that choose the bad choice.

Wonderfully, we know God explicitly promises also to forgive any who turn from evil and repent, and this chapter also helps us about what is choice, and freedom to chose, regarding your OP:

Ezekiel 18 NIV

So, don't miss that one also, to help fill out more about how real it is that we can choose, turn, change....

 

[Mark Quayle]

With regards to Satan I'd say God foreknew but did not want the fall.

God expressed regret in making the antediluvian people. Sometimes God engages with souls and free wills in the fourth dimension.

In creating free will, God did not plan out their courses. Pre-creation, He knew everything ahead and everything among possibilities less pleasing to Him and displeasing and chose to make the collection of us, Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, Adam...

Wonderful, this fourth dimension. Someday, I'll have to read up on it.

You say, "In creating free will, God did not plan out their courses." You know this how? Can you show me Scripture concerning this?

God presents us weak-minded humans with words we can deal with, and does so without lying, but the resulting anthropomorphisms we get out of the words are not necessarily what he means by them.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I would suggest that God allows things to happen that He has not specifically planed to happen, God is no doubt in control and sovereign but He can accomplish His goals without micromanaging. Which is to say that man can exercise free will and God can still control the outcome of all events.

How do they happen, then? Specifically, please... Show the chain of cause-and-effect, even if the only cause is mere chance, or superior intellect or something.

 

[Mark Quayle]

ah, it's very very good to read the full passage, which is all the chapter:
Deuteronomy 28 NIV

While this chapter greatly helps anyone understand about half of all the history events in the entire old testament, here we are also noticing God's promises and the consequences he lays out to those that choose the bad choice.

Wonderfully, we know God explicitly promises also to forgive any who turn from evil and repent, and this chapter also helps us about what is choice, and freedom to chose, regarding your OP:

Ezekiel 18 NIV

So, don't miss that one also, to help fill out more about how real it is that we can choose, turn, change....

I have not denied that we do actually, really, consequentially, choose. I have promoted the idea. But the fact that we choose from options doesn't mean that all the options actually are available. To put it another way, IF one chooses option A, it is pretty obvious that option B will not happen. You may interject, "But IF one had chosen B, it would have happened!" So I say, "Of course! And A would not have happened."

You may even go so far as to allow God's detailed predestination, but suppose that WE, and all choosers, are the ones who change what would have happened, by both obedience and disobedience, but that is looking at it backwards. "Free will" of sentient effects (such as humans) cannot logically be truly the cause of previous causes. There are no little first causes running about.