Predestination/Election

[kel32]

John 6:44 "NO ONE comes to me unless the father who has sent me, DRAWS HIM." thats 1. John 15:16 "You have NOT chosen me, but yet I have CHOSEN YOU." thats 2. need more??? ill be happy to supply you a bible if you need one.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day." --Don't leave out the next verse!-- "It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me." John6:44 AND 45

"It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you." John 15:16

Well of course it was Jesus who chose them:

"As he passed by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting their nets into the sea; they were fishermen. Jesus said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men." Mark1:16-17

"He walked along a little farther and saw James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They too were in a boat mending their nets. Then he called them So they left their father Zebedee in the boat along with the hired men and followed him." Mark1:19-20

~Strike one~
~peace~

 

[Street-Preacher]

How did you get saved?

 

[Benedicta00]

John 6:44 "NO ONE comes to me unless the father who has sent me, DRAWS HIM." thats 1. John 15:16 "You have NOT chosen me, but yet I have CHOSEN YOU." thats 2. need more??? ill be happy to supply you a bible if you need one.

Now where do you see that He draws only selected people? Where are you reading that He withholds grace from certain people? He is saying that if God did not grant men the prevenint grace, then man would not be able to respond to Him. There is nothing at all saying this grace is restricted to a few souls.

I would like to see the verse that says, “I restrict my grace to only a few souls because if I don’t I would fail and not be sovereign and allowing souls to perish, giving them no chance at salvation brings me glory.”

Can you cite me that one?

I got news for you, Catholics believe that no one can know God unless He grants them grace to do so. You do not understand the doctrine of free will properly at all. We do not at all decide that we are going to seek out God and be saved. This is false.

 

[Bulldog]

There is nothing at all saying this grace is restricted to a few souls.

Romans 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

How many survived the flood? 8

how many died? millions

 

[Benedicta00]

How many survived the flood? 8

how many died? millions

Where they not invited on to the boat? Yes, they were.

 

[Benedicta00]

Romans 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Where do it say that those He harden did not choose that? Can you show me that verse, where it says that He gives some no choice, no grace? What your verse means is that God is not obligated to save those who willfully reject him.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Where they not invited on to the boat? Yes, they were.

so is every one now ! but do they believe ? NO

 

[Bulldog]

Where do it say that those He harden did not choose that? Can you show me that verse, where it says that He gives some no choice, no grace? What your verse means is that God is not obligated to save those who willfully reject him.

It does not say that he chose to be hardened in this scripture, but that Gid hardened him based on God's will.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Shelby has a hard time with verses she does not like.

may The Holy Spirit teach her the reason why she has a problem with these verses!

get rid of the stumbling stone

 

[Benedicta00]

It does not say that he chose to be hardened in this scripture, but that Gid hardened him based on God's will.

Where? Where does it say that he hardens because of a sovereign choice? Where doesn’t it say that he hardens those who reject Him?

 

[Benedicta00]

Shelby has a hard time with verses she does not like.

may The Holy Spirit teach her the reason why she has a problem with these verses!

get rid of the stumbling stone

Hey Dude, the same can be said for you. May the Holy Spirit lead you to where the fullness of truth resides.

 

[Entropy]

I see no reason for any mutual exclusion between predestination and free will. We are clearly elected (Eph 1:3-6). There is also choice, as per Deut 30:19 mentioned earlier, and others, particularly the prophets. God has/had clearly choosen the nation of Israel, but they (for a time) rejected him. This theme is throughout the OT.

You'll note that none of the verses mentioned in above posts indicate a mandatory response when God chooses. He may (and does) choose us, but I can turn my back to him, or respond and choose him. But without him choosing me first, I'll never be able to choose him. 1John 4:19 "We love because he has first loved us. "

Edit- While there may be differing opinions on this, as Christians our discussion shold be salted with love, gentleness, and respect (John 13:35, Gal 5:22, 23, 1Pet 3:15, )

 

[Benedicta00]

so is every one now ! but do they believe ? NO

That is right everyone is given grace sufficient to come to believe. There is no where in that bible you will read that he only gives grace to some.

 

[Benedicta00]

I see no reason for any mutual exclusion between predestination and free will. We are clearly elected (Eph 1:3-6). There is also choice, as per Deut 30:19 mentioned earlier, and others, particularly the prophets. God has/had clearly choosen the nation of Israel, but they (for a time) rejected him. This theme is throughout the OT.

You'll note that none of the verses mentioned in above posts indicate a mandatory response when God chooses. He may (and does) choose us, but I can turn my back to him, or respond and choose him. But without him choosing me first, I'll never be able to choose him. 1John 4:19 "We love because he has first loved us. "

Exactly, thank you.

 

[Bulldog]

I see no reason for any mutual exclusion between predestination and free will. We are clearly elected (Eph 1:3-6). There is also choice, as per Deut 30:19 mentioned earlier, and others, particularly the prophets. God has/had clearly choosen the nation of Israel, but they (for a time) rejected him. This theme is throughout the OT.

You'll note that none of the verses mentioned in above posts indicate a mandatory response when God chooses. He may (and does) choose us, but I can turn my back to him, or respond and choose him. But without him choosing me first, I'll never be able to choose him. 1John 4:19 "We love because he has first loved us. "

Edit- While there may be differing opinions on this, as Christians our discussion shold be salted with love, gentleness, and respect (John 13:35, Gal 5:22, 23, 1Pet 3:15, )

I have yet to see a verse that says that a man can chhose God on his own. I can give you plenty that says you can't though.

 

[Entropy]

I have yet to see a verse that says that a man can chhose God on his own. I can give you plenty that says you can't though.

Since no one is claiming that man can choose God by himself, it would follow that no one has posted verses supporting this view.

 

[Bulldog]

Since no one is claiming that man can choose God by himself, it would follow that no one has posted verses supporting this view.

WHen they say "free will", what they really mean is that the choice is up to man to chhose or reject God. SO they are alleging man can choose God on theor own.

 

[Beoga]

is God justified if he only extends his grace to a few? yes.
does he have to show mercy or grace to people? no.

 

[Benedicta00]

WHen they say "free will", what they really mean is that the choice is up to man to chhose or reject God. SO they are alleging man can choose God on theor own.

You are in error about what we believe.