Predestination? Doesn't God want all to be saved?

Kylissa said:

That is certainly true (that pulling out single scriptures can lead to wrong theology).

I'm not actually looking to debate the issue. I'm just curious how those who hold to it explain the seeming inconsistency?

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This could be one you'd like to take to the Reformed forum.

Kylissa said:

Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

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Yes, our free will means that we can oppose even God's will. There would be no reason for His patience unless He's waiting for us to change to will rightly.

Kylissa said:

Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

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The Lutheran Confessions teach that God genuinely wants all people- each and every individual- to be saved. And we also believe that each and every individual's sins were paid for on the cross.

But we also believe in predestination and in the inability of sinful humans to cooperate in becoming regenerate.

How?

We believe God's eternal will and Christ's death are not automatically applied to all people, but come to people through the church and her ministry of word and sacrament. The preaching of the law kills the old Adam; the preaching of the gospel raises the new person in Christ; the administration of baptism joins us to Christ's death and resurrection. In each of those actions, God, not humans, is the one performing the act. Humans may be able to kill themselves (although this is a 'preface' to salvation, not salvation itself), but they cannot kill themselves in such a way that joins them to Christ, and they certainly cannot raise themselves from the dead to new life in Christ. God does those things in the church's ministry of word and sacrament without cooperation from the sinner. The sinner can resist, and many do, but the success of this divine surgery is dependent on the how, when, where, and whether the person encounters the word preached in its fullness and the degree to which that person resists.

Notice that here predestination could potentially apply to anyone and everyone who is killed by the law (something they could resist by being stubborn) and is raised by the gospel (something they could resist by being in doubt). It is a doctrine of God's victory over human sin, a doctrine of comfort and security, not a doctrine that can keep you up at night. Are you baptized? Then God has chosen you!

Notice, too, that this is less a doctrine of predestination in the distant past than it is a doctrine of election in our present. We speak about predestination because of what God does for us here and now simply because he is outside of time.

But at no point do we fall into the other trap, that humans cooperate in becoming regenerate. What this all means for human cooperation in sanctification is a whole different story (and it really depends on how you look at it, and it may be different in different people).

In terms of TULIP, this means Lutherans believe:

Total Depravity: Yes
Unconditional Election: Yes?
Limited Atonement: Absolutely not.
Irresistible Grace: No, but not because of cooperation.
Perseverance of the Saints: No.

Albion said:

This could be one you'd like to take to the Reformed forum.

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Hey! What about us?!

Radagast said:

Many people feel that "all people" in certain verses means "all kinds of people."

That seems the best way to make sense of, for example, 1 Timothy 4:10: "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe."

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That would be true only if all instances clearly showed that more limited meaning, which they don't.. The above verse is explicitly qualified, applying to those within a relationship with Jesus, but not as the limitation necessary for Calvinists so as to avoid the inevitable conclusion of a limited atonement. That seems to be a case of one's theology being imposed onto a text rather than derived from it.

John
NZ

This is the RCC teaching:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

Man's will is always involved to one degree or another because he can resist grace; he can reject God just as Adam did.

Johnnz said:

That seems to be a case of one's theology being imposed onto a text rather than derived from it.

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Well, no, it's based on an understanding of what the Greek words mean.

Radagast said:

Well, no, it's based on an understanding of what the Greek words mean.

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Can you expand on this a bit more?

Thanks
John
NZ

fhansen said:

This is the RCC teaching...

Man's will is always involved to one degree or another because he can resist grace; he can reject God just as Adam did.

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It's a pity that Catholics sometimes know so little about Catholicism.

There are, in fact, two quite distinct Catholic teachings on the subject -- Thomism (traditionally, the Dominican view) and Molinism (traditionally, the Jesuit view). See here. A Thomist Catholic would strongly disagree with what you just said. To quote Catholic theologian James Akin, "Thomists claim this enabling grace is intrinsically efficacious; by its very nature, because of the kind of grace it is, it always produces the effect of salvation."

The great Catholic theologian St Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God's intention cannot fail, according to the saying of Augustine in his book on the Predestination of the Saints (De Dono Persev. xiv) that 'by God's good gifts whoever is liberated, is most certainly liberated.' Hence if God intends, while moving, that the one whose heart He moves should attain to grace, he will infallibly attain to it, according to John 6:45: 'Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to Me.' "

Radagast said:

It's a pity that Catholics sometimes know so little about Catholicism.

There are, in fact, two quite distinct Catholic teachings on the subject -- Thomism (traditionally, the Dominican view) and Molinism (traditionally, the Jesuit view). See here. A Thomist Catholic would strongly disagree with what you just said. To quote Catholic theologian James Akin, "Thomists claim this enabling grace is intrinsically efficacious; by its very nature, because of the kind of grace it is, it always produces the effect of salvation."

The great Catholic theologian St Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God's intention cannot fail, according to the saying of Augustine in his book on the Predestination of the Saints (De Dono Persev. xiv) that 'by God's good gifts whoever is liberated, is most certainly liberated.' Hence if God intends, while moving, that the one whose heart He moves should attain to grace, he will infallibly attain to it, according to John 6:45: 'Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to Me.' "

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It's amusing-and a bit confounding sometimes- how non-RCs misunderstand and misrepresent the Catholic faith. Neither Aquinas nor Augustine define Catholicism single-handedly, which is why the RCC is under no compulsion to accept everything they wrote. The teaching that I quoted IS RC doctrine. Here's another one:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

And here's another quote from Augustine, Sermo 169:
“He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” (St. Augustine’s Sermon 169, 13)

Kylissa said:

That's an interesting question.

And this is just my personal take on it. Not representative of any Church, not what I've been told, nor even what I've really studied out. I might even change my mind.

But offhand, I think that God us not constrained by time in any way. I think His knowledge is perfect - that He fully knew the end from the beginning. Scripture does mention the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. I think God always knew everything that would happen. In fact, I tend to think that "time" is a construct really for the limited creatures, such as we are. So not everything happens at once, as they say. But I think God is not bound by all of that and can probably see as if it is present to Him, how we are positioned in eternity, as if it is already done.

So ... I don't think there was a time when God suddenly realized John Doe the Third would be saved. I think God knew from before He ever created mankind at all. I don't think He learns anything, but has and always has had perfect knowledge of everything, including the eschaton.

Just my opinion, of course.

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And then there's the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. If we accept that . . . which is a big "if" . . . then perhaps we can truthfully say that there are so many alternate versions of each of us that every one of us has versions of us that are saved and versions of us that are lost.

fhansen said:

It's amusing-and a bit confounding sometimes- how non-RCs misunderstand and misrepresent the Catholic faith. Neither Aquinas nor Augustine define Catholicism single-handedly, which is why the RCC is under no compulsion to accept everything they wrote

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True, but equally the Thomist view on Grace is a valid one for Catholics; Catholics may not call it heretical (in fact, a 1607 decree of Pope Paul V states that explicitly).

Consequently, the Catholic Catechism takes great care in choosing wording that's consistent with both the Thomist and Molinist positions.

fhansen said:

The teaching that I quoted IS RC doctrine.

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Yes, absolutely. But the sentence you added in your own words was your own opinion; Aquinas would have rejected it.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

And then there's the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. If we accept that . . . which is a big "if" . . . then perhaps we can truthfully say that there are so many alternate versions of each of us that every one of us has versions of us that are saved and versions of us that are lost.

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The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is, IMHO, totally inconsistent with the Bible.

Kylissa said:

But offhand, I think that God us not constrained by time in any way. I think His knowledge is perfect - that He fully knew the end from the beginning. Scripture does mention the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. I think God always knew everything that would happen. In fact, I tend to think that "time" is a construct really for the limited creatures, such as we are. So not everything happens at once, as they say. But I think God is not bound by all of that and can probably see as if it is present to Him, how we are positioned in eternity, as if it is already done.

... I don't think He learns anything, but has and always has had perfect knowledge of everything, including the eschaton.

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That much is traditional orthodox Christian theology. Augustine says something similar, and I think serious Bible-study inevitably takes you to that conclusion.

Kylissa said:

Just curious about something?

For those who believe that God predestines some to be saved, and by default or design chooses condemnation for others, how do you reconcile such verses as the one that says "For God is patient with us, desiring that all men come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved"?

How can God simultaneously desire all to be saved, while overriding His own desires and choosing some to be condemned?

I realize that to allow free will while equating foreknowledge with predestination will answer this question. But if you believe God actively selects the saved and unsaved Himself, how does that work?

Thank you.

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To really get to the answer,one must understand that there was an age before this one,before we were made flesh

Take a look at the below link

earth_ages

Now for your question,it simply means some are chosen

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.
"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15
Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".
When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

Let's return now to Ephesians, now that we have the background of predestination explained by Paul, in Romans. We were predestined to be the adopted children of God, by what Jesus Christ did on the cross. This is exactly what God's plan [His will] is designed to do. Being in the flesh body, we all will fall short, however, through repentance we are drawn back to Him, and into God's will for us.

ephesians1

Hope that helped

n2thelight said:

To really get to the answer,one must understand that there was an age before this one,before we were made flesh

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No, there wasn't. There is no Biblical support for such an idea at all.

n2thelight said:

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"... The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age

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Well, no, actually.

The Greek noun translated "foundation" is katabolē (καταβολή, G2602). It means, not surprisingly, a "foundation" or a "laying down" (although in Hebrews 11:11 the same word refers to a woman conceiving). In Classical Greek the word also means "sowing seed" or "payment by instalments." The word does not mean "overthrow."

Originally Posted by n2thelight

Originally Posted by n2thelight

Well, no, actually.

The Greek noun translated "foundation" is katabolē (καταβολή, G2602). It means, not surprisingly, a "foundation" or a "laying down" (although in Hebrews 11:11 the same word refers to a woman conceiving). In Classical Greek the word also means "sowing seed" or "payment by instalments." The word does not mean "overthrow."

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2602 // katabolh // katabole // kat-ab-ol-ay' //

from 2598 ; TDNT - 3:620,418; n f

AV - foundation 10, to conceive + 1519 1; 11

1) a throwing or laying down
1a) the injection or depositing of the virile sperm in the womb
1b) of the seed of plants and animals
2) a founding (laying down a foundation)

Also the earth was'nt created in vain,it became that way

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."
The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".


Anyway,believe what you will,as will I.........