Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

[sawdust]

Sawdust, you can charge me with inventing an understanding of scripture and twisting scripture but since I provide the references and the meanings are consistent with the text, your assertions are without merit.

I did? What I said was:

Can you twist someone's words a little more so they are so far from their original meaning?

That was a reference to you misunderstanding what Genez had said. Yet you read it as me charging you with twisting scripture? Then you want me to believe you can understand the Word? It's just as well there is a rest for the people of God.

You say Peter was a believer, yet he turned his back of Jesus and left his ministry and took up fishing after Jesus died on the cross. You say Thomas was a believer, yet the text says otherwise - see John 20:25.

Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Jn6:68

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mt.16:16

Yeah, like you say, Peter wasn't a believer.
Unless you're thinking that once we are believers we never sin again? And as far as Thomas, the text says he didn't believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. It doesn't say he didn't believe as Peter did.

I get the impression from you that unless a believer understands everything there is to know about the Lord, he/she can't be a believer? We are to grow in knowledge, its not all automatic the moment one believes Jesus died for their sins. (2Pet.3:18) Yet salvation is assured, for we have the promise of the Lord that when we believe in Christ we have eternal life. It is a gift, freely given.

Judas was not a tare, there is no scripture that supports this idea. He was chosen for a purpose, he was not a tare.

First you say we are all tares (born in Adam) now you say Judas was not. Can you make your mind up which is the truth please?

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" Jn6:70

I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus was not referring to Judas as being "a devil". We get to see something of his life in hindsight. The man practiced evil, he stole from the poor box!!!! There is a difference between one who sins under temptation (like Peter and Thomas) and one who continually and blatantly practices sin.

for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity. Prov.24:16

Peter amd Thomas rose up again because they were righteous men made so by the word of the Lord already within them. Judas was a wicked man and he was brought down by his own evil desires. Judas was a tare. If someone can show me from the scriptures that my reasoning is off, then please do so.

Yes Judas was chosen for a purpose and what was that purpose Van? And why was he chosen for that purpose? Could it be because the Lord knew he was a tare?

Scripture says we are to cultivate the lost, not ignore the lost. You have absolutely no scriptural support for your godless assertions, none, zip, nada. We are to bring mercy to the lost, and not play favorites.

I can't find what it is I am supposed to have said that would give you that impression.

As far as I can see the scriptures say we are to walk in the Light (truth) bringing the message of reconciliation to the world. I can't see anything that says we have been given the power to change tare to wheat. The power lies within the Word to effect any change. Our job, if we have been responsible with the truth we have been given, is to "pass it on" allowing the Word to do His work.

Next you directly contradict scripture and indicate those born in Adam do not belong to the devil. What part of the domain of darkness do you not understand? See 1 John 3:8.

My failure was not one of contradiction but lack of clarification. I apologise.

For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die. Eze.18:4

No soul belongs to Satan. That is a lie he would like those who are caught in his domain to believe. If a man does indeed end up "working as his property"? It is that man's own desire.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Jn.3:19

He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 1Jn.3:8

I don't have my notes to look this up, but if my memory is working well, "he who does what is sinful" in the Greek has the connotation of one who habitually sins and regards it as the "normal" way of life.

It does not infer ownership, but rather, the desires of men revealing themselves to be just like the Devil. That is: self serving, considering themselves to be their own authority with no other above them. We have been handed over to the kingdom of darkness so we might know the condemnation that comes from sin but we have not been sold to evil. The Lord has not given up His right to judge us which, He would have to do if He relinquished ownership. The darkness to which all men are born into is, ultimately, for our own good. The Creator of all, owns all that He might judge all.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

Genez, quite a lengthy post, too bad it is all misguided.

No young lady dictated to me what to write. Therefore, what I wrote was not "miss guided."

I am calling it a day with you, sir. For, you consistently fail to comprehend what I am saying. You misrepresent me even to myself.


When it gets to that point? I see no point in continuing in trying to reason. Even more so, when its concerning reasoning over a third party's words (Bible).

Wishing you a nice Day, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Hi Sawdust, lets review.

It says in the context of the parable of the tares, that they are to be left alone. That at the end of the age God will then burn them up. He does not say to try and get them saved. Just keep doing what you should be doing to those who will, and do believe. God will take care of the tares. Did you not read that?

There Genez said we should leave the tares alone and indicated we should not try to get them saved. I said this view was silly and you said I was twisting someone's words.

Sawdust, you can charge me with inventing an understanding of scripture and twisting scripture but since I provide the references and the meanings are consistent with the text, your assertions are without merit.

Is this a reference to me mischaracterizing Genez or scripture? Scripture? Did you charge me with that?

It isn't a lack of faith the Church suffers from, it's a lack of Truth. Good, sound, in depth biblical teaching that goes beyond the elementary principles of salvation.

I said, " Easy Believism is a widely held view. But many students of the Bible believe it is a mistaken view of scripture. See Luke 6:46-49." You responded that those "students of the bible" twisted scripture when you said "Petty minded bigotry has a way of seeing things their way and their way alone.

I applied these generalizations to me because I like to think I am both a member of the church and a student of the bible.

Peter was misguided and mistaken when he left his ministry and took up fishing. But Jesus did not give up on him. See John 21.
Yes Peter loved Jesus, and yes Peter believed Jesus was the Christ, but his beliefs about forgiveness were wrong, he thought his failure disqualified him and so he went fishing. But Jesus corrected him, with "Do you love me more that anything? Peter replied, I love you like a brother. Jesus accepted this level of committment and said two things to Peter. First, feed my sheep, and second, one day you will love me more than anything, for you will stretch out your hands indicating Peter would not fail and would die for Christ."

I get the impression from you that unless a believer understands everything there is to know about the Lord, he/she can't be a believer?

No, that is not what I am saying. A person can have a limited knowledge of Christ and if that knowledge is united with faith, God will reckon that faith as righteousness and place them in Christ. So it is the total love of God, not the total knowledge of God. We all see through a glass darkly and so it total knowledge was the requirement, nobody would be saved.

First you say we are all tares (born in Adam) now you say Judas was not. Can you make your mind up which is the truth please?

Gee, I do not remember saying we are all tares? Tares are of the devil and not children of Christ. We were all in that group, not in Christ but in the domain of darkness. Judas was not the spawn of another gospel, he got his gospel presentation from Jesus Himself. He rejected the gospel, rather than being led astray by false teachers. Here is what I said: "tares are not unbelievers, folks who have rejected Christ, but superficial believers whose faith has not yet been accepted by God. Children of the wicked one are still in Adam and have not be placed in Christ, they are not born again."

Eventually the wheat will learn to recognise the tares for themselves and they in turn will be able to counter the lies of the tares with the truth from their own lips. It has absolutely nothing to do with showing a lack of mercy. You would make a real lousy farmer if you think that by "cultivating" the tares in your field you will transform them into wheat. It's the cultivation that exposes the tares for what they are.

To which I responded, "Scripture says we are to cultivate the lost, not ignore the lost. You have absolutely no scriptural support for your godless assertions, none, zip, nada. We are to bring mercy to the lost, and not play favorites."

There is no scriptural support for the idea that once a tare, always a tare.

My position is not that we (humans) change tares into wheat but that by cultivation, we help God change tares in Adam into wheat in Christ. The past sin of being deceived is just as forgivable as all the other forgivable sins. People leave cults and seek Christ all the time.

Yes, to be under the influence or control of someone is to be of that someone. Everyone "in Adam" is of the devil in that sense. Tares of sons of evil, under the influence of false teachings sown by the devil. If they are confronted by truth, by the word of God, they can be brought to repentence and faith. After all, they are seeking God, just in a mistaken way. Just as some Jews who were seeking God by works, came to the understanding that by works no flesh is justified, and sought God through faith in Christ.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi Sawdust, lets review.


There Genez said we should leave the tares alone and indicated we should not try to get them saved. I said this view was silly and you said I was twisting someone's words.

Oy!


You leave them alone! You simply preach and teach the Word of God to those who believe!

You do not start saying that we have tares amongst us and then go on a tare hunt! That would be trying to weed them out, and in doing so, harm those who would be effected by the harsh reality of witnessing to the battle that would ensue!


You teach the believers all they are to know in grace. The tares sitting there will be exposed to truth. If it becomes unbearable to them, they will depart on their own accord and go find another church to haunt where the knowledge of God's Word is weak enough so they can remain hidden and try to harm the potential growth of believers.

The best way to weed out a congregation of tares is to know what you are are talking about in God's Word. And then, teach it.

If you keep going after tares with a weed whacker, you will be neglecting those who need to be fed spiritual truth!!!

God says... Leave those "weeds" alone! God has his own gardeners in his angels. They will weed out the tares at the end of the age. The Words of Christ say, its not your job to whack weeds! (Tares are a weed). Feed his flock, and leave the weeds to God's gardeners!

In other words.... Don't be distracted by the weeds. Water the crop assigned to you. They will not choke out your crop if you keep watering them with the Word. But, you can choke out your crop if you take it upon yourself to begin weed whacking (oppressive legalism!)

Matthew 13:28-30 (New International Version)

'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

What part of.....

" No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.

.... do you not understand?

And, what part of the following do you not understand?

Matthew 13:37-39 (New International Version)

"He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels."

In other words... Just teach the Word to your flock as if all sitting before you are believers! In doing so, you will fulfill the command to love your enemies! You will be feeding your enemy as commanded by Christ!

That way you do not judge who is saved and who is not! For some immature believers who are yet carnal, may appear to be tares! And, when you start weeding out tares, you will harm them as well!

"because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them."

Just do your job as onto the Lord, and not have your eyes upon men! Love them with agape love.

And, stop second guessing what God's Word does tell us. Do not change what it says because what it says does not sit right with your own way of seeing things. Start learning to walk by faith, not by sight. That may be a good lesson we can all learn from this misunderstanding.

In Christ by Grace, GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

Oy!

Ditto!


peace

 

[Van]

Hi GeneZ,

You do not leave misguided folks alone, you reach out to them, you rebuke them, and if they repent of their errant doctines, you forgive them.

You do not uproot them and send them away because of their fruit, you continue to bring mercy to them.

GeneZ, you understanding of the teaching of Jesus on tares and those caught in the snare of false teachings is errant.

God does not say leave those tares alone, He says have mercy on them.

GeneZ, you are simply repeating you mistaken views. Again, how can a wheat be uprooted if OSAS is true. The only way is if when you uproot a tare you discard someone who might realize he or she is deceived.

Letting tares and wheat grow means we should nurture the tares, give the tares the pure gospel and pray for God to cause conversion of the tare into wheat.

No, we are not supposed to ignore the tares, we are not supposed to uproot the tares. We are not to go after them with a weedwacker, but with kindness and truth.

No one is advocating weeding out the tares, but we are to weed out the false teachers.

Yes, it is good advice to not change what the Word says, see Luke 6:46-49.

 

[sawdust]

Hi Sawdust, lets review.


There Genez said we should leave the tares alone and indicated we should not try to get them saved. I said this view was silly and you said I was twisting someone's words.



Is this a reference to me mischaracterizing Genez or scripture? Scripture? Did you charge me with that?



I said, " Easy Believism is a widely held view. But many students of the Bible believe it is a mistaken view of scripture. See Luke 6:46-49." You responded that those "students of the bible" twisted scripture when you said "Petty minded bigotry has a way of seeing things their way and their way alone.

I applied these generalizations to me because I like to think I am both a member of the church and a student of the bible.

Peter was misguided and mistaken when he left his ministry and took up fishing. But Jesus did not give up on him. See John 21.
Yes Peter loved Jesus, and yes Peter believed Jesus was the Christ, but his beliefs about forgiveness were wrong, he thought his failure disqualified him and so he went fishing. But Jesus corrected him, with "Do you love me more that anything? Peter replied, I love you like a brother. Jesus accepted this level of committment and said two things to Peter. First, feed my sheep, and second, one day you will love me more than anything, for you will stretch out your hands indicating Peter would not fail and would die for Christ."



No, that is not what I am saying. A person can have a limited knowledge of Christ and if that knowledge is united with faith, God will reckon that faith as righteousness and place them in Christ. So it is the total love of God, not the total knowledge of God. We all see through a glass darkly and so it total knowledge was the requirement, nobody would be saved.



Gee, I do not remember saying we are all tares? Tares are of the devil and not children of Christ. We were all in that group, not in Christ but in the domain of darkness. Judas was not the spawn of another gospel, he got his gospel presentation from Jesus Himself. He rejected the gospel, rather than being led astray by false teachers. Here is what I said: "tares are not unbelievers, folks who have rejected Christ, but superficial believers whose faith has not yet been accepted by God. Children of the wicked one are still in Adam and have not be placed in Christ, they are not born again."



To which I responded, "Scripture says we are to cultivate the lost, not ignore the lost. You have absolutely no scriptural support for your godless assertions, none, zip, nada. We are to bring mercy to the lost, and not play favorites."

There is no scriptural support for the idea that once a tare, always a tare.

My position is not that we (humans) change tares into wheat but that by cultivation, we help God change tares in Adam into wheat in Christ. The past sin of being deceived is just as forgivable as all the other forgivable sins. People leave cults and seek Christ all the time.

Yes, to be under the influence or control of someone is to be of that someone. Everyone "in Adam" is of the devil in that sense. Tares of sons of evil, under the influence of false teachings sown by the devil. If they are confronted by truth, by the word of God, they can be brought to repentence and faith. After all, they are seeking God, just in a mistaken way. Just as some Jews who were seeking God by works, came to the understanding that by works no flesh is justified, and sought God through faith in Christ.

I just lost an hour of typing again. I can't do it again right now. I'll get back to you.


peace

 

[Van]

Hi Sawdust, the best defense against having within us the trait of causing others to stumble is love for the brethren. Food for thought.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi GeneZ,

You do not leave misguided folks alone, you reach out to them, you rebuke them, and if they repent of their errant doctines, you forgive them.

OK! I am going to show you how you do not comprehend one single thing I am saying.

You are either doing this on purpose to try and upset me. Or, your ability to perceive what someone is saying is deeply hindered.

You do not uproot them and send them away because of their fruit, you continue to bring mercy to them.

I was showing you that. I said the same thing. But, you are treating me like I said we should uproot them.

GeneZ, you understanding of the teaching of Jesus on tares and those caught in the snare of false teachings is errant.

Those who are caught in false teachings are not tares. Tares are not saved. Those caught in false teaching are usually saved folks walking wrong before the Lord. I never said those caught up in false teaching have to be unsaved. Where you got that from, Heaven only knows.

God does not say leave those tares alone, He says have mercy on them.

The question in the parable went as follows....

Matthew 13:28 niv
" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' "

Like I said! We are not to pull them up. We are to leave them alone.

If you can not see what that means, and must turn it on me to chide me? Then, I see you having a serious problem of distorting another's intentions On top of that, then taking your distortion of their words and using it against them! That approach is most definitely not from God! But, you can not see this?

GeneZ, you are simply repeating you mistaken views. Again, how can a wheat be uprooted if OSAS is true. The only way is if when you uproot a tare you discard someone who might realize he or she is deceived.

Who spoke of losing one's salvation? I did not.

I said it could hurt those who appear to be tares because they are weak in faith and are yet carnal. That if you categorically exposed the tares for what they are, that the weak believers might mistaken themselves for being tares, and may never show their face in church again!

I have known weak believers like that! Its pitiful to see how filled with self loathing and doubt they have. They are weak in faith. To go on an offensive against the tares may very well uproot these weak believers from feeling welcome in church! That is why you leave the tares alone and preach to all as you would believers.

AND! I never mentioned losing one's salvation. How you twisted that into being the issue, I can not say.

Letting tares and wheat grow means we should nurture the tares, give the tares the pure gospel and pray for God to cause conversion of the tare into wheat.

There you go again! You speak like you are telling me something that I do not know. Like I have not already said this SEVERAL TIMES to you! When you teach a congregation as if all believe, you give the Gospel and pray for those not yet saved, and should always be showing mercy! Mercy is not for only unbelievers. Mercy is for all believers who have yet to grow. If you treat your congregation that way? The tares will receive what you mentioned by treating all as if they are positive to God's Word. Like I have been telling you.

What's with you? You do not read what I write? You skim and only read certain words that grab your attention? What you do is rude. Inconsiderate to the one you are debating.

No, we are not supposed to ignore the tares, we are not supposed to uproot the tares. We are not to go after them with a weedwacker, but with kindness and truth.

You just repeated my own words as if you are correcting me for saying the opposite!

What's with you??? Can't you read what I write? You are ignoring me!!!

No one is advocating weeding out the tares, but we are to weed out the false teachers.

How can a false teacher weed out himself? Can you answer that? If the one teaching is false?

Yes, it is good advice to not change what the Word says, see Luke 6:46-49.

That is a skill that requires that one carefully read what it is they are reading, or, carefully hear what they are hearing. So far. You have missed about 90% of what I am sayinmg. Others can simple back track and see that what I am saying is true. Fonts do not lie. Sawdust has already tried to tell you this.

That's not a very good batting average. Sawdust has been trying to explain this to you. But, you only proceed to do to her what you have been doing to me. You misunderstand and misrepresent even what she is saying.

Frustrate the opposition so they leave you alone? Is that your game? Or, do you need glasses? I don't know! But you keep misquoting me, which is AGAINST forum rules!

"1.4 You will not misquote another member regardless of context."

I suggest you drop this malfunction of perception you seem to possess, and learn to correctly state what it is another is saying! If you don't, you will be reported! Its RUDE!

The only thing I wonder about, is if this is not some long aquired bad habit you learned to use as a means to manipulate and frustrate those opposing your point of view. Be that as it may. It is AGAINST Forum rules! And you do it consistently!

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Van]

GeneZ, me thinks thou protest too much.

I think you are backtracking, trying to have it both ways, and attacking me.

You do not uproot them and send them away because of their fruit, you continue to bring mercy to them.

I was showing you that.

No GeneZ, you did say to bring them mercy, you said to leave them alone, to preach to them as if they were believers, to not point out there view is errant.

Both unsaved and saved can be caught in false teachings. To say only saved can be caught in false teachings is silly. Tares are the spawn of another gospel, they are unsaved, and the church should strive to bring mercy to them, just as to the rest of the lost.

Who spoke of losing one's salvation? I did not.

You indicated if we pointed out the error of the tares, then we would uproot the wheat. But you again tried to have it both ways, saying uprooting the tares means removal for destruction, but uprooting the wheat only means confusing them. As I pointed out before, within a passage we must apply the same rules of interpretation, otherwise we are simply engaging in ends driven eisigesis.

Final point, we are not to preach to the unsaved as if they are saved. We are to tell the truth. Easy Believism is a mistaken view of scripture.

 

[GenemZ]

GeneZ, me thinks thou protest too much.

I think you are backtracking, trying to have it both ways, and attacking me.

OK.... more of the same.

No GeneZ, you did say to bring them mercy, you said to leave them alone, to preach to them as if they were believers, to not point out there view is errant.

Believers who are in a good church get taught the full spectrum of the human condition. The state of what it means to be a Tare will be brought out over time, if one is teaching the full council of God's Word

Yet, when it is taught it will not be presented as a personal attack directed towards only a few. In that way, the Tares are presented objective truth about themselves, and it now becomes an issue between them and the Lord. Not between them and the pastor.

I have taught objectively the Word of God, only to find out weeks later that I had nailed someone over the head. I had no idea! That is the way the Word should be taught. Objectively, and with nothing held back. We are to serve the Lord, not be on our own personal agenda of Tare hunting.

Both unsaved and saved can be caught in false teachings. To say only saved can be caught in false teachings is silly. Tares are the spawn of another gospel, they are unsaved, and the church should strive to bring mercy to them, just as to the rest of the lost.

Would you PLEASE! Learn to Cut and paste what I say before you make comment? Just like I am doing with you right now! For, as far as I can tell, you have MISSED AGAIN the full meaning of what I had said.

Here! This is what I said!

Those who are caught in false teachings are not tares. Tares are not saved. Those caught in false teaching are usually saved folks walking wrong before the Lord. I never said those caught up in false teaching have to be unsaved. Where you got that from, Heaven only knows.

First of all. Tares are not saved. They do not caught. Believers get caught. Tares feel at home with false teachings and lose nothing when they are in them. Believers have everything to lose. Sheep get caught in a briar patch, rabbits do not.

And, read my words again. I also said that Tares can be caught up in false teachings. But, not caught. The whole reason I wrote that was because you erroneously stated I said that only the unsaved had to be the ones caught up in false teaching. Not the saved. I had no idea where you had gotten that from, so I tried my best to unravel the ball of yarn you just threw my way. So, now you have suceeded in compounding the confusion you already started. Congratulations!

You indicated if we pointed out the error of the tares, then we would uproot the wheat.

I said, not to go on an offensive! To personally attack the Tares with their condition.

Rather, simply teach what a Tare is and what they think like. To teach all as if no one was accused (as believers). Teach with love and with a dislike for evil, as if all were believers.

To start attacking some of the congregation as if they were Tares, is to get personal. You can even mention that many congregations have its Tares. But, who they are personally? Is between them and the Lord. But, when you start preaching "I know who you are!!!!!" (as some preachers do) Then, he has stepped over the line. He has not allowed the freedom for them to privately repent to the Lord (if that should happen). And, he may be attacking (uprooting) weak and carnal believers. Harming their ability to become sanctified through forgiveness, in God's unlimited patience. That is why we are told not to uproot the Tares! When you do, you chase off weak and carnal believers, too! For they are very hard to tell apart. Just like wheat and tares resemble each other as they grow. Did you know that a tare looks just like wheat in many ways??? That's the problem. You will have to attack certain weak believers in order to weed out the tares. God wants the weak protected, not attacked.

Romans 14:1 niv
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters."

If you try to weed out the Tares? You will harm those who are weak in faith! Do not try and weed out the Tares. Leave them be! Leave them alone. That is what the Bible says!

Matthew 13:28-30 (New International Version)
"'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.

At that time I will tell the harvesters (angels): First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

Leave the Tares alone! let them grow together with the wheat! Just feed the wheat as if all are wheat! That does not mean you can not teach the wheat that what a tare is! Just do not start teaching tares what a tare is! If you do, you will be trying to uproot them! The Bible says not to do that!

" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.

How many times have I shown you this? This makes three?

But you again tried to have it both ways, saying uprooting the tares means removal for destruction, but uprooting the wheat only means confusing them.

You just do not read what I write.

You have become a big lesson to me.

One in REPEATING MYSELF OVER , AND OVER AGAIN!

This is it. I am done with you. You officially go on my Ignore list so I do not lose it with you and receive a warning for getting out of line. For, that is what I see your talent (inability to perceive what is being said) will lead me.

Here! I am giving you the last say. Savor it!

Maybe, you'll really distort what I just said, so I will be tempted to jump back in the ring??? Think not.

Wishing you well.
Have a nice Day, GeneZ

 

[Van]

"OK.... more of the same."

Would you PLEASE! Learn to Cut and paste

Play your own ball.

False assertion - the unsaved do not get caught in the snares of the devil. For example Ananias and Sapphira seem to be tares within the church, having a form of godliness, but wicked to their core. Apparently in trying to look more generous than they actually were, they indicated they gave all the money from the sale of land, when they only gave part. This snare of the devil, pretending to be godly when they should be confessing their weaknesses, so filled their hearts they tried to lie to the Holy Spirit. They had heard the gospel, but could not turn loose of a desire to look good before men. Blessed are the poor in spirit...

 

[Van]

Those who are caught in false teachings are not tares. Tares are not saved. Those caught in false teaching are usually saved folks walking wrong before the Lord. I never said those caught up in false teaching have to be unsaved. Where you got that from, Heaven only knows.

Lets go over this again. Those who are caught in false teachings are not tares. Those who are caught in false teaching are usually saved. Thus, some folks who are not saved can be caught in false teachings. But they are not tares.
You can shuck and jive till the cows come home, but tares are the spawn of false teaching sown by the devil.

 

[sawdust]

Hi Sawdust, the best defense against having within us the trait of causing others to stumble is love for the brethren. Food for thought.

Oh Van....

You say some of the weirdest things I have ever heard. You really have to stop because it makes me laugh so hard that was how I lost my last post. Laughing so much, I hit the wrong key and lost the lot.

I am going to come back in anther post once I have regained my composure. Don't want to lose another post.



peace

 

[Van]

I stand pat, my statement reflects my understanding of the inspired word.

 

[sawdust]

I stand pat, my statement reflects my understanding of the inspired word.

I understand what you say is a reflection of your understanding of the word and I can only commend your desire to endure under what, most probably appears to you, as antagonism. There is a time and place to stand pat and sometimes, sad to say, it is against those who would call themselves "brother". But this is not the time.

Genez and I are not your enemies, we do not seek to tear you down, but to build you up in the Word.

For my own part, I do not profess to have attained a confidence in the Lord that I believe I can add much. Yet what I have I give as best as I am able. And if I may be permitted to address just one thing in all that you have said it would be this coment of yours:

Easy believism has no foundation, it says a faith that does not produce striving to please God is acceptable to God.

Faith is not meant to produce "striving", it is meant to do the very opposite.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb.11:1

It is this assuarance and certainty that allows us to rest.

There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Heb.4:9&10

Our faith is precious to God for it is His Word made to be a living reality in our lives by the power of the Holy Spirit at work in us. When we rest in the faith He has given us (through the word spoken Rom.10:17) we are giving back to Him what is more valuable than anything in all creation, the Word, Jesus Christ. This is why one cannot please God apart from faith. It is why faith is the only acceptable thing to Him. For faith is the Christ (the Word) alive within us.

When Christ truly lives within us we no longer have need to strive for anything. Understanding this, that we have ceased from all striving to please God, allows us to enter His rest and be transformed into the same overcomer as Christ is.

Now it is true for every believer there are times when we find ourselves striving to obey the Lord. Yet we must come to learn that our striving will not win the day. We must recover from the "gung ho" attitude that we think will see us through and learn to rest in the truth that we have in the Word. At first, as new believers, it may be little more than a promise or two, but as we persist in sitting at the feet of our Master and learning His truth, we begin to develop complete thought patterns (rationales) to overcome the sin and evil that we face in this world. But whether it is a little or it is much, we must learn to rest. If we continue to find ourselves striving it is because we are failing the test of our faith which, is more precious than gold. Needless to say, those who consider that striving to please God is the way of life for a Christian? Are way off the track and they need to stop, preferably very quickly, and rethink their position.

Now I have said these things because of all the things that have been said in this thread, the one thing closer to my heart than all else is to see my family in Christ (and those who have yet to receive Christ) enter into the rest that the Lord has promised. For in this way we are made perfect.

God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Heb.11:40

That something better is the new creation where peace reigns eternally and the rest that we enter now is made manifestly complete.

I do not know what more to say or how to say it any different or better so that you might understand. Whether you accept what I say as true or not is up to you and the Lord will be my judge as to whether I have expressed myself according to His truth or not. Just as it will be for you, for we have both given our best according to our own understanding.

I can only ask, that should your understanding fail you at some time? That you might reconsider my words to see if they do indeed have merit as if from the Lord.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with us both.

grace and peace, Sawdust

 

[Van]

Faith is not meant to produce "striving", it is meant to do the very opposite.

Hebrews 11:1 addresses that faith is believing in God and trusting in His promises. But if you read the rest of the chapter, you will see that this faith results in striving to please God. By faith Able did this, by faith, Enoch... by faith Noah..., by faith Abraham....

In a sense, when we are born again, we enter our Lord's rest, but in another sense, our Lord gave us a job to do once we were born again, a new creation created for good works. We are ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of reconciliation. We are go to all nations...making disciples...teaching them all that the Lord commanded us to do. We are to pick up our cross and follow Christ. The reason I use the word strive is that as we walk humbly with our Lord, we will continue to fall short, but even so, because of our faith, with our breastplate of righteousness firmly in place, we will not be discouraged, but will stand firm, aways giving ourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because we know that our labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Easy Believism is a mistaken view of scripture.

 

[Seaioth]

Wow, calling the Reformed doctrine on predestination unbiblical. Although the sincerity and well-meaningness I find admirable, I don't believe that much fruit can be beared from this discussion, looking through al the verses quoted in as well as out of context... Grace be with you and I'll leave you to your devices. Praise God that He is the author and perfected of our faith.