• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Predestination and Prayer

wobbly

child of God
Jul 5, 2004
93
5
67
Central Coast,NSW
✟239.00
Faith
Protestant
Hi Buttermilk,

Buttermilk said:
With regard to Predestination, if every person is predestined, what is the point of praying for them. Afterall, if God has already decided who is going to be saved/go to hell etc etc no amount of prayer is going to change the situation.
I think that the answer to the dilemma of why pray to a Sovereign God who already has decided everything is found in God's nature. God is both Sovereign, and relational.

(I'm going to assume God's sovereignty for this answer.)

He wants us to pray to him about things that are in line with his will. This is because he is relational, he is our father and wants us to ask him for things. Because he is Sovereign he can answer our prayers, if he wants. There are examples in the bible of prayers influencing God. But I don't think that prayer has made God do anything that he wasn't already going to do.

This is similar to evangelism, you could also ask why evangelise when God has already chosen the elect. Rom 10 tells us that no-one can believe without hearing the Gospel, but the bible (John 6 and 12 I think) also tells us that only the elect will believe.

I think we can err if we restrict God to being sovereign and not relational, just as we can err if we restrict God to being relational and not sovereign. We need to integrate both of these aspects of God into our understanding of him. Its not always easy to get your mind around though. Which shouldn't surprise us because God is way more than we can understand.

Don Carson explains this much better than me in "Rember me O God' if you want to follow it up.

cheers Martin
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟31,808.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I found a very interesting article written by John Piper:
Here is the link: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/prayer/sovereignty_and_prayer.html

The Sovereignty of God and Prayer

January, 1976

I am often asked, "If you believe God works all things according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11) and that his knowledge of all things past, present, and future is infallible, then what is the point of praying that anything happen?" Usually this question is asked in relation to human decision: "If God has predestined some to be his sons and chosen them before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4,5), then what's the point in praying for anyone's conversion?"

The implicit argument here is that if prayer is to be possible at all man must have the power of self-determination. That is, all man's decisions must ultimately belong to himself, not God. For otherwise he is determined by God and all his decisions are really fixed in God's eternal counsel. Let's examine the reasonableness of this argument by reflecting on the example cited above.

1. "Why pray for anyone's conversion if God has chosen before the foundation of the world who will be his sons?" A person in need of conversion is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); he is "enslaved to sin" (Romans 6:17; John 8:34); "the god of this world has blinded his mind that he might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (II Corinthians. 4:4); his heart is hardened against God (Ephesians 4:18) so that he is hostile to God and in rebellion against God's will (Romans 8:7).

Now I would like to turn the question back to my questioner: If you insist that this man must have the power of ultimate self-determination, what is the point of praying for him? What do you want God to do for Him? You can't ask that God overcome the man's rebellion, for rebellion is precisely what the man is now choosing, so that would mean God overcame his choice and took away his power of self-determination. But how can God save this man unless he act so as to change the man's heart from hard hostility to tender trust?

Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his.

What I am saying is that it is not the doctrine of God's sovereignty which thwarts prayer for the conversion of sinners. On the contrary, it is the unbiblical notion of self-determination which would consistently put an end to all prayers for the lost. Prayer is a request that God do something. But the only thing God can do to save a lost sinner is to overcome his resistance to God. If you insist that he retain his self-determination, then you are insisting that he remain without Christ. For "no one can come to Christ unless it is given him from the Father" (John 6:65,44).

Only the person who rejects human self-determination can consistently pray for God to save the lost. My prayer for unbelievers is that God will do for them what He did for Lydia: He opened her heart so that she gave heed to what Paul said (Acts 16:14). I will pray that God, who once said, "Let there be light!", will by that same creative power "shine in their hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (II Corinthians 4:6). I will pray that He will "take out their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26). I will pray that they be born not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God (John 1:13). And with all my praying I will try to "be kind and to teach and correct with gentleness and patience, if perhaps God may grant them repentance and freedom from Satan's snare" (II Timothy 2:24-26).

In short, I do not ask God to sit back and wait for my neighbor to decide to change. I do not suggest to God that He keep his distance lest his beauty become irresistible and violate my neighbor's power of self-determination. No! I pray that he ravish my unbelieving neighbor with his beauty, that he unshackle the enslaved will, that he make the dead alive and that he suffer no resistance to stop him lest my neighbor perish.

2. If someone now says, "O.K., granted that a person's conversion is ultimately determined by God' I still don't see the point of your prayer. If God chose before the foundation of the world who would be converted, what function does your prayer have?" My answer is that it has a function like that of preaching: How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach unless they are sent (Romans 10:14f.)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God (John 6:65; II Timothy 2:25; Ephesians 2:8), but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men. It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God (Ephesians 1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel: Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born (Galatians 1:15), as was Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5). Therefore, to ask, "If we don't evangelize, will the elect be saved?" is like asking, "If there is no predestination, will the predestined be saved?" God knows those who are his and he will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan, because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect. "You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John." (Problem of Pain chapter 7, Anthology, p 910, cf. p 80)

Prayer is like preaching in that it is a human act also. It is a human act that God has ordained and which he delights in because it reflects the dependence of his creatures upon Him. He has promised to respond to prayer, and his response is just as contingent upon our prayer as our prayer is in accordance with his will. "And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us" (I John 5:14). When we don't know how to pray according to God's will but desire it earnestly, "the Spirit of God intercedes for us according to the will of God" (Romans 8:27).

In other words, just as God will see to it that His Word is proclaimed as a means to saving the elect, so He will see to it that all those prayers are prayed which He has promised to respond to. I think Paul's words in Romans 15:18 would apply equally well to his preaching and his praying ministry: "I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles." Even our prayers are a gift from the one who "works in us that which is pleasing in his sight" (Hebrews 13:21). Oh, how grateful we should be that He has chosen us to be employed in this high service! How eager we should be to spend much time in prayer!

©Desiring God


Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and distribute this material in any format provided that you do NOT alter the wording in any way, you do not charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction, and you do not make more than 1,000 physical copies. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is preferred. Any exceptions to the above must be explicitly approved by Desiring God.


Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: By John Piper. ©Desiring God. Website: www.desiringGod.org. Email: mail@desiringGod.org. Toll Free: 888.346.4700.
 
Upvote 0

Imblessed

Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage
Aug 8, 2004
2,007
111
53
Ohio
✟25,256.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
5solas,

thanks for that link, loved reading it!

It's something I've been thinking about alot, and was pleased that someone brought it up. I've come to the conclusion that whoever penned the phrase "everyone's a calvinst when they are down on their knees" hit the nail on the head. I hear 'arminians' praying all the time for God to "DO SOMETHING", yet they teach that He cannot, unless that person is willing! It's funny, and something I had never realized until I became a calvinist...
 
Upvote 0

oworm

Veteran
Nov 24, 2003
2,487
173
United States
Visit site
✟27,171.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Imblessed said:
BTW,

I think the answer is the same as why we evangelize--He told us to; because that is how God chooses to save people---evangelism and prayer!!
And the preaching of the word. This has turned out to be a great thread :) Thanks to all who contributed and for Pipers link:D
 
Upvote 0

Buttermilk

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2003
13,089
393
✟16,334.00
Faith
Atheist
oworm said:
Thats an interesting and thought provoking response!
So if you are an advocate of "Free will" in choosing or rejecting the gospel, and if you pray for the salvation of a soul you are actually in contradiction of your stance because your asking God to intervene in a persons choice of decision.
I am not asking God to intervine, because he won't; he is waiting patiently to be asked by that person.

I refer back to my generic comment in a previous post. I will try to clarify my stance.

You ask friend 1 for advice about how to help friend 2 (advice about any problem, we are talking in general terms here). You then go to friend 2 with that advice. Friend 2 then has the free will to decide whether or not he will follow that advice.

Now substitute friend 1 with God, do you see where I am coming from now. :)
 
Upvote 0

Buttermilk

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2003
13,089
393
✟16,334.00
Faith
Atheist
oworm said:
If God doesnt "Influence" then how can a person choose God? The bible clearly teaches in numerous places that man is unable to find God of his own free will because he is biased toward living for himself and his own desires.
Correct, a person is unable to find God of their own freewill, that is why He sent Jesus :p ;)
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,062
1,804
60
New England
✟632,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Buttermilk said:
Correct, a person is unable to find God of their own freewill, that is why He sent Jesus :p ;)
Good Day, Butter Milk

So, are you saying that the Father sent the Son to infulence the free-will of men? Because as you said that of thier own they can not.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

oworm

Veteran
Nov 24, 2003
2,487
173
United States
Visit site
✟27,171.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Buttermilk said:
Correct, a person is unable to find God of their own freewill,
OK



that is why He sent Jesus :p ;)
What differece is Jesus going to make if the person is unable to find him by free will?
 
Upvote 0

oworm

Veteran
Nov 24, 2003
2,487
173
United States
Visit site
✟27,171.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Buttermilk said:
I am not asking God to intervine, because he won't;
If God wont intervene how can anyone be saved? You already said above that man cant find God by his own freewill........................ huh?:scratch:
 
Upvote 0

Buttermilk

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2003
13,089
393
✟16,334.00
Faith
Atheist
BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Butter Milk

So, are you saying that the Father sent the Son to infulence the free-will of men? Because as you said that of thier own they can not.

Peace to u,

Bill
No that isn't what I am saying ;)

What I am saying is that God sent Jesus to build a bridge (metaphorically of course :D ) between God and man. The "bridge" having been put in place, man has to decide for himself (by the free will which God has given him) whether or not he will "cross" the "bridge" (= have a relationship with God).
 
Upvote 0

theseed

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
6,026
132
Clarksville, TN
Visit site
✟75,788.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Buttermilk said:
No that isn't what I am saying ;)

What I am saying is that God sent Jesus to build a bridge (metaphorically of course :D ) between God and man. The "bridge" having been put in place, man has to decide for himself (by the free will which God has given him) whether or not he will "cross" the "bridge" (= have a relationship with God).
I would guess then that you also believe that salvation is not secure until death? And that we can reject salvation once we have accepted it?
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,062
1,804
60
New England
✟632,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Buttermilk said:
No that isn't what I am saying ;)

Good Day Buttermilk

Correct, a person is unable to find God of their own freewill, that is why He sent Jesus


What I am saying is that God sent Jesus to build a bridge (metaphorically of course :D ) between God and man. The "bridge" having been put in place, man has to decide for himself (by the free will which God has given him) whether or not he will "cross" the "bridge" (= have a relationship with God).
I am a little confused here I will accept your metaphore, for now. If man can not of his own free will find God, how of his own free will find a bridge that God has provided, if they can not find the one who made the provision?

Peace to u,

Bill
 
Upvote 0
Hi all. I'm a newbie but please allow me to offer my thoughts on this question. I too, buttermilk, have wrestled with this question. I can't say I have come up with a watertight answer - is one of those things that our finite brains can't fully understand I reckon. But God tells us 'Do not worry about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, present your requests to God.' (Phil 4:6). So we may, perhaps we are even commanded, to come to God and make requests of Him. So we may request that a non-Christian may become a Christian, unless we are commanded elsewhere in Scripture not to, and I don't know of anywhere that we are.
At the same time, we believe that God elects people unto salvation and recognise that it is His choice who to save and who not to save, but as someone else has pointed out already, we don't know who is chosen, so we can't pray or not pray for someone's salvation in accordance with God's elective(?) will, even if we wanted to.
Another thought I had is we should pray to be in regular communication with God, to share with Him what we are thinking (even though He already knows), our needs and wants (even though He knows those better than we do) and to thank and praise Him and to confess our sins AND, perhaps most importantly, because He commands us to pray (eg Ephesians 6:18).
I hope these (unintentionally lengthy) thoughts have been worth reading.
 
Upvote 0