Predestination and Prayer

[Buttermilk]

I hope I do not offend anyone with my question, I can assure you that is not my intention

Here goes

With regard to Predestination, if every person is predestined, what is the point of praying for them. Afterall, if God has already decided who is going to be saved/go to hell etc etc no amount of prayer is going to change the situation.

What are your opinions on my statement? Please explain them.

Thanks

 

[tigersnare]

With regard to Predestination, if every person is predestined, what is the point of praying for them. Afterall, if God has already decided who is going to be saved/go to hell etc etc no amount of prayer is going to change the situation.

What are your opinions on my statement? Please explain them.

Thanks

Correct we can not, by our prayers, change who is the elect. But we do not know who that is. So why would we not be hopeful and pray for our neighbors, co-workers, fellow students, parents, relatives ect?

 

[Buttermilk]

Correct we can not, by our prayers, change who is the elect. But we do not know who that is. So why would we not be hopeful and pray for our neighbors, co-workers, fellow students, parents, relatives ect?

I'm sorry tigersnare, but I don't understand your answer. What is praying for them going to achieve if they are already predestined one way or the other?

 

[tigersnare]

I'm sorry tigersnare, but I don't understand your answer. What is praying for them going to achieve if they are already predestined one way or the other?

Forgive me if I think this is a loaded question.

 

[Turn'D-OuT-DiffurnT]

Buttermilk, it's a good question, but don't you think it can be turned around the other way? If God does not decide who is going to be saved/go to hell etc., but his eternal destiny is ultimately in the hands of each individual, what is praying for their salvation going to accomplish, given that God is not going to act to ensure it in any case? No amount of prayer is going to change the situation.

 

[Buttermilk]

Forgive me if I think this is a loaded question.

I'm sorry if you think that, I assure you that was not my intention, I just wanted you to clarify your answer, I honestly did not understand it

 

[tigersnare]

I'm sorry if you think that, I assure you that was not my intention, I just wanted you to clarify your answer, I honestly did not understand it

Ok, well the short answer is no, our prayers will not change who God has elected unto salvation. As in, if Joe Blow is not of the elect, our prayers won't change that.

But we are O.K. with that because God is sovereign, i.e. will not the Judge of all the earth do rightly? Or in the words of Paul, who are you o man, to answer back to God?

But as the intellgent TrunD pointed out, if man's salvation is ultimatly up to him, prayers to God will be just as "ineffective". We'd be better off trying to talk the man into salvation if that were the case.

 

[Buttermilk]

Buttermilk, it's a good question, but don't you think it can be turned around the other way? If God does not decide who is going to be saved/go to hell etc., but his eternal destiny is ultimately in the hands of each individual, what is praying for their salvation going to accomplish, given that God is not going to act to ensure it in any case? No amount of prayer is going to change the situation.

Yes that is a fair point, and one I had thought about too.

I agree, if someone has free will ( and that is my opinion) then God is not going to influence (please don't shoot me down in flames for that word, its late here and I can't think how else to express it at the moment ) their decision whether or not they accept God.

My take on it is this: God is a "friend" to all Christians.

If you take that generically : you may have a friend who needs some help, there is too much work to do yourself. you ask another friend to help you to help this friend. (was that as clear as mud )

In essence you prayer is not asking God to save the person, but to give you the correct actions/words to enable the person to make informed choices.

 

[Turn'D-OuT-DiffurnT]

In essesence you prayer is not asking God to save the person, but to give you the correct actions/words to enable the person to make informed choices.

I see. Hmm. Well, that’s interesting. At first I started to say I have no problem with that idea. And I don’t, really, but it would seem to go much deeper. And deeper still depending on one’s conception of God’s sovereignty. You’re approaching it from a basic “free will”, God loves everyone, wants to save everyone paradigm. So I guess my question(s) for you would be, since God obviously knows what is going to be effective in reaching the person, will He give them to you to use even if you don’t pray? If not, why not? The salvation of every person who ever lived is extremely important to Him, after all.

Also, if for whatever reason, you don’t receive the right words to use, and the person can’t make an “informed choice,” and he never is able to make that choice, then what? I mean, given your belief in how God operates. I don’t really like the term “informed choice” because it sounds like marketing jargon, and it’s not part of what I think the Biblical teaching is. Doesn’t Scripture say that all are guilty and without excuse, regardless of whether they’re ever “properly” evangelized by some nice Christian with a sparkling smile that wants to help them make “informed choices”?

But let’s say "free-willism" (for lack of a better term) is true. You mean God’s going to condemn someone that might well have repented and believed had the message been presented in just the right way, but never did because it wasn’t? And do we really think that this is what happens i.e. that winning souls is largely a matter of eloquence, persuasive sales-technique, or couching things in just the precise manner so as to produce a Yes for Jesus?? Just some thoughts.

 

[cygnusx1]

God Predestines our prayers!

 

[BBAS 64]

I hope I do not offend anyone with my question, I can assure you that is not my intention

Here goes

With regard to Predestination, if every person is predestined, what is the point of praying for them. Afterall, if God has already decided who is going to be saved/go to hell etc etc no amount of prayer is going to change the situation.

What are your opinions on my statement? Please explain them.

Thanks

Good day, Buttermilk

This is a very good question. It is not ture that every person is predestined.

proorizō

Thayer Definition:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand


Now, there are some that are "decide beforehand" and "decreed" according to the will of the Father, for His good pleasure. God the Father Knows his will and carries out his will as he sees fit and we can be sure his will his perfect for his is perfect, we are not.

So, why do we pray if this is all predetermined by the Father?

Did not Jesus pray that the fathers will be done, not my will but thine?
Here in John did not Jesus pray:

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Was it's God's will that a comforter be sent? We pray for many things the things we recive are things that are part of God's will for us.

We are to pray that God's will be done it gives us some prospective as to how little we are. I do not know who God's elect are but he does and I pray for his will to be done and depend upon him to see it though. So in praying for the salvation of a lost one, it is allways seen with in the context of what God's will is from his prospective.

Hope that helps.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[Buttermilk]

I see. Hmm. Well, that’s interesting. At first I started to say I have no problem with that idea. And I don’t, really, but it would seem to go much deeper. And deeper still depending on one’s conception of God’s sovereignty. You’re approaching it from a basic “free will”, God loves everyone, wants to save everyone paradigm.

I do believe God loves everyone, and yes he would like everyone to be saved.

So I guess my question(s) for you would be, since God obviously knows what is going to be effective in reaching the person, will He give them to you to use even if you don’t pray? If not, why not?

God know's your heart's desire which I think is a form of prayer, without going through the physical motions of prayer itself.

The salvation of every person who ever lived is extremely important to Him, after all.

IMHO that does not sound like a Calvinist's opinion. Please don't shoot me down in flames, I am just making an observation.

Also, if for whatever reason, you don’t receive the right words to use, and the person can’t make an “informed choice,” and he never is able to make that choice, then what? I mean, given your belief in how God operates.

Are you asking what happens if God doesn't answer your prayer?

I don’t really like the term “informed choice” because it sounds like marketing jargon, and it’s not part of what I think the Biblical teaching is.

I applogise, although I did say it was late when I typed it, and I asked you to excuse the choice of words and it is late again, so please excuse the lingo again

Doesn’t Scripture say that all are guilty and without excuse, regardless of whether they’re ever “properly” evangelized by some nice Christian with a sparkling smile that wants to help them make “informed choices”?

But let’s say "free-willism" (for lack of a better term) is true. You mean God’s going to condemn someone that might well have repented and believed had the message been presented in just the right way, but never did because it wasn’t? And do we really think that this is what happens i.e. that winning souls is largely a matter of eloquence, persuasive sales-technique, or couching things in just the precise manner so as to produce a Yes for Jesus?? Just some thoughts.

I hope my previous comments clear this up.

My understanding of Calvinism is that God condemns some people by his choice.

IMHO God will only condemn those who choose outright to "ignore" Him. As to the people who haven't heard the message - I will be honest and say I don't quite know where I stand on that yet.

 

[Bulldog]

Hello Buttermilk,

I hope my previous comments clear this up.

My understanding of Calvinism is that God condemns some people by his choice.

IMHO God will only condemn those who choose outright to "ignore" Him. As to the people who haven't heard the message - I will be honest and say I don't quite know where I stand on that yet.

God's choosing on one to hell is not really a positive action as the choosing of the elect, God does not need to work unbelief into the unregenerate men, he already has it... God's "choosing" of the non-eclet is merely His passing over them and letting them live their natural lives.

Make sense?

God Bless

 

[Turn'D-OuT-DiffurnT]

I do believe God loves everyone, and yes he would like everyone to be saved.

Somehow, I kinda thought so

God know's your heart's desire which I think is a form of prayer, without going through the physical motions of prayer itself.

Fair enough. I agree.

IMHO that does not sound like a Calvinist's opinion. Please don't shoot me down in flames, I am just making an observation.

Right, it’s not my position, and I didn’t mean it to sound mocking. Well, not too much anyway Just mentioned it because I assume that’s what you believe so it therefore seemed pertinent.

Are you asking what happens if God doesn't answer your prayer?

I’m just asking if God is still going to condemn a person He knows might have chosen otherwise (assuming there are any such people) if the person had had the right information to make the right choice? I think…this is starting to get a bit confusing, lol.

I applogise, although I did say it was late when I typed it, and I asked you to excuse the choice of words and it is late again, so please excuse the lingo again

Hey, it’s all right, I really didn’t mean to sound overly critical or harsh. Again, I was just sharing my thoughts.

My understanding of Calvinism is that God condemns some people by his choice.

IMHO God will only condemn those who choose outright to "ignore" Him. As to the people who haven't heard the message - I will be honest and say I don't quite know where I stand on that yet.

You probably know this, but we believe that all people stand condemned before God, and that because of our sinful, totally depraved natures, we hate God and would all ignore Him forever unless He did something to change our hearts. Out of that mass of vile sinners, yes He has sovereignly and mercifully chosen to reconcile many to Himself and justly pass over the others, who deserve nothing but wrath. That tells the story much more accurately than merely saying, “God condemns some people by His choice.” Though I know it was not your intent, to be so brief is misleading about what we believe and understandably causes prejudice to well up against it.

 

[oworm]

Please don't shoot me down in flames.

Please dont keep repeating this otherwise you will be shot down in flames!

 

[theseed]

I hope I do not offend anyone with my question, I can assure you that is not my intention

Here goes

With regard to Predestination, if every person is predestined, what is the point of praying for them. Afterall, if God has already decided who is going to be saved/go to hell etc etc no amount of prayer is going to change the situation.

What are your opinions on my statement? Please explain them.

Thanks

I put the same question to you. If God is going to leave it up to "free will". Then why bother to prayer, since your choice does not matter?

 

[Buttermilk]

I put the same question to you. If God is going to leave it up to "free will". Then why bother to prayer, since your choice does not matter?

If you would care to read all my posts in this thread (and not just the OP ) I think you will find my answer to your question

 

[Buttermilk]

I put the same question to you. If God is going to leave it up to "free will". Then why bother to prayer, since your choice does not matter?

I am interested in your answer tho

I would also like the opinions of any others who are interested

 

[oworm]

I put the same question to you. If God is going to leave it up to "free will". Then why bother to prayer, since your choice does not matter?

Thats an interesting and thought provoking response!
So if you are an advocate of "Free will" in choosing or rejecting the gospel, and if you pray for the salvation of a soul you are actually in contradiction of your stance because your asking God to intervene in a persons choice of decision.

 

[oworm]

I agree, if someone has free will ( and that is my opinion) then God is not going to influence their decision whether or not they accept God.

If God doesnt "Influence" then how can a person choose God? The bible clearly teaches in numerous places that man is unable to find God of his own free will because he is biased toward living for himself and his own desires.

My take on it is this: God is a "friend" to all Christians.

True

If you take that generically

Do you mean generically as in male/ female christians? :

In essence you prayer is not asking God to save the person, but to give you the correct actions/words to enable the person to make informed choices.

So lets say you make all the right moves and say all the right things and because you have prayed, the person sees your example and decides to become a Christian. Wasnt the person infuenced by your example and ultimately wasnt the person infuenced by God who was working through you in order to draw the person to himself?