Predestination and Election

[heymikey80]

I can understand how you might get that impression, Light Hearted, but I don't think this interpretation survives all of Romans 8. Here Paul puts all these specific families together and points out, they're all predestined, they're all under God's grace:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Rom 8:28-31
​

At the end of Romans 8 Paul is calling attention not to some special group of predestined Christians, to boast about their special place in God. No, he's previously pointed out that everyone who loves God is called according to His purpose. And why? Well, he answers, "Because those whom he foreknew he also predestined ..." The only way this can be "because" (or "for"), is if this is a reason why all things work together for the good of those who love God.

That's a huge group, those who love God, who are called. And Paul is saying the reason why all things work together is that those whom God predestined, He called.

Tracing back, this passage shows that those who love God were foreknown by God and predestined by God.

 

[Light hearted]

Now, I'm not blotting out the understanding of predestination, I do agree that God had predestined many before time.

Let me ask this......are you who are speaking for predestination say that only the predestined will make it to heaven?

Or are you saying that there are the predestined and there are those who will have to be repentive sinners to get to heaven?

 

[Van]

Hi Lighthearted, no God did not decide in advance of creation to predestine some foreseen individuals to salvation. That is false doctrine. Look at more literal translations of Ephesians 1:4, say the NASB or ESV or HCSB and you will see that the NLT misses the mark by a wide margin. It says, "even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." What this means is God chose the pre-incarnate Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, His Christ, His Chosen One before creation, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan of redemption, He chose us in Him as the target group of His redemption plan, not individually, but as a kind of people, believers in Christ.

Why could this verse not be referring to individual selection for salvation? Because 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we lived without mercy before we were chosen to be His people. Therefore our individual election unto salvation occurs during our physical lifetime. It is not possible that Ephesians 1:4 actual message is our individual election, and therefore to be chosen in Him means something other than our individual election.

 

[Light hearted]

That's for your reply van.

I'm sorry, there are so many words that mean the same thing yet can mean totally the opposite at the same time. I'm trying to find as much commom ground here as possible.

When I use the word predestined I use that, these particular people where destined to be Godly and righteous by God for God. I look at Abraham, Moses, many of the prophets, ect.

For we know God knew the way of the Law would fail and he already planned on Jesus's coming would bring a new way of faith. For if he knew Jesus was in the plan, he had to know, or already knew who would be God's speakers in the Old Testament.

Now we have the New Testament, God needs people right from the git go to spread the gospel. In the Old Testament he had hundreds of thousands in Egypt who saw his miracles.

Now we have only have a small percentage of that who actually saw Jesus, and even with those they didn't see the huge miracles such as blood river, locusts, parting the sea, ect.

I can only figure by Eph. 4:11 that he did predestined people to be speakers for Jesus Christ. They didn't have tv or radio, word of mouth was it. He needed people that he already designed for the job.

Chosen..... I do not put "predestined" in the same meaning as "chosen" here.

I consider a repentive sinner, one who has been told the salvation through Jesus Christ and believed, one that has heard and believed, he now has taken care of the fleshy side, he now needs God's mercy to complete the spiritual side. We now have one who God is pleased, God has now "chosen" him to be proper for the Holy Spirit.

Without the "chosen" ones there is no reason for the "predestined" ones.
Without the "predestined" ones there can be no "chosen" ones.

There is room for both, they both need each other.

Remember, Jesus said, all that believed, will have eternal life.

Whether we heard from one of the original "predestined" ones, or from a "chosen" one of today, Belief is the basis, that'll get us to heaven.

 

[chestertonrules]

I. How did we believe?
A. His power

True enough. The failure of Calvinism is that God's power, through Jesus, is available to ALL men. We all have the opportunity to access the grace freely offered. Now we must accept or refuse the gift, whether large or small, and we will be judged on OUR response.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

B. His gift

His gift is offered to ALL MEN as the bible clearly explains.

C. His grace

Grace is a necessary component of salvation. It is offered to all through the blood of Jesus. Those who accept this free gift will be saved.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2


John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Man refuses God. God does not refuse man.


II. Who will believe? John 5:39-44 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Man is not willing, God is willing.

A. Those who have been given by the Father to the Son.
1. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jesus won't reject us, but we can reject him.




a. "They have kept Your word."

4. John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

The disciples. They had a unique calling. I don't think this is universal.



B. The sheep
1. John 10:1-5 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
2. John 10:10-11 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
3. John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.


If you hear his voice and do not follow, you are not a sheep. You have chosen to reject God. Not all who say Lord Lord will enter heaven, but ONLY those who do the will of the father.



C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;


Those who do God's will are chosen.

D. As many as were ordained
1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Those who do God's will should be saved. We have the choice to accept or reject his grace.

E. Whom the Lord wills
1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.


God wants ALL men to be saved. However, because he has created us in his image, we are given the freedom to choose to follow or reject him.



III. When did God choose us?
A. From the beginning -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2. Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

There is no time to God. He is outside of time. He has known the end since the beginning of time.

He chooses, has chosen, and will choose those who accept his grace and follow his will.

 

[heymikey80]

Now, I'm not blotting out the understanding of predestination, I do agree that God had predestined many before time.

Let me ask this......are you who are speaking for predestination say that only the predestined will make it to heaven?

Or are you saying that there are the predestined and there are those who will have to be repentive sinners to get to heaven?

I always think it's easier to let Paul speak for himself, but to assure you he's clearly advocating that the predestined are those who love God, are called by God, and are glorified. Check on how Paul talks about "the saints" in Romans 8:

he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom 8:27-30
​

Is there some "excluded middle" group of people that are not predestined? There's no explicit, "no middle ground". But there are some things that easily deduce this. Scripture leaves no doubt as to how God chooses, and God is not choosing people as a result of what they do or want:

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:15-18
​

What does this mean for believing and being saved? Both are true. Faith is a necessary component for salvation, and God chooses those who have faith and saves them. The rancorous conflict is over the significant matter of whether the person has faith, God sees that beforehand and then predestines (invalidating Rom 9:16,18), or whether the person is just like anyone else, God begins a relationship with them by choosing him, predestining them, giving them the Spirit, and then the person believes and is saved (which gets into conflicts over free will).

 

[beloved57]

Faith is a necessary component for salvation, and God chooses those who have faith and saves them.

This is a false gospel..

 

[Light hearted]

heymikey80,
When I asked the question....

Let me ask this......are you who are speaking for predestination say that only the predestined will make it to heaven?

Or are you saying that there are the predestined and there are those who will have to be repentive sinners to get to heaven?

I was trying, for the sake of conversation on this site, to find out what people truely believe. By knowing where people truely stand we may find common ground and grow out of this stalemate we have in amongs us.

Yet, as you can see, I am the only one truely clarifying my stance.

I have no pride but that in Christ to find some meeting of the minds. If we all could exert the effort to find common ground that we exert to hold the ground we stand on, we could truely move the mountains that Jesus mentioned.

 

[Light hearted]

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:15-18.
​

I have seen this verse used so many times, I thougt there had to be more to it. If you look deeper, you will find that Paul was addressing his people, the Jews, the ones who God brought out of Egypt, he parted the red sea, he fed them, he brought them to the promised land.

And for all God did for them they formed idols, the killed, they married pagans, the commited adultry, they cheated in business, basically they broke all 10 commandments. God's plan was that they would be an example to the world of what life would be with God's blessing, instead they made God look like a fool.

This is where God had enough, just as he hardened the pharohs heart, he hardened the hearts of most of the Jews. If he couldn't have respect through blessing the nation, he will gain respect by punishing the nation. He used them as an example, this is what Paul is explaining in this verse 9:22, he finalizes the expalnation here.

That was the story of one nation under God supposed to abide my God's law, notice the word "law". They did not abide, they got God's wrath.

Now we no longer abide to God's law, although the law does show us of sin, we do not live under the law. We now live under grace, we thank Jesus for that. We now are individuals as seen in God's eyes, we now have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Now that Jesus turned the page of salvation for us, we now make the decision, either we believe or we don't, it's heaven or hell. Jesus said you are either for me or against me.

The page is turned, now turn to Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and seperation from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

God gives free will decision, here you see, man has made his own decision to harden his own heart. This is new testament times.

The hardening of their hearts, how?.... Having lost all sensitivity they (themselves) have decided for themselves and made this desision to harden their own hearts.

When you consider what I just wrote, I ask that you don't hold on to old teachings, read and consider with the heart of a child.

God is mercy.... forgiving

God grants grace.... God's free and unmerited favor for sinful humanity.

If you stick with Romans 9:15-18. Mercy and Grace do not stand true.

If you believe God is forgiving and merciful, and grants grace onto mandkind, then Romans 9:15-18 is not for today, it is an explanation of God dealing out his Justice to a sinning country.

I pray that this could be read and understood with an open heart, better yet, with the heart of Jesus.








​

 

[Van]

Hi Lighthearted, yes, certainly some people where chosen to be prophets and hence, once chosen to be God's prophet, they were predestined to be God's prophets. But that does cover the entire scope of how predestined is used in the Bible. But we do seem to agree on one point, after a person is chosen for a purpose, then at least to some degree they are predestined to fulfill that purpose. Paul was chosen from the womb, but had to be put back on the track on the road to Damascus.

As far as the salvation sequence, once we put our complete faith in Christ, then if God credits our faith as righteousness, He chooses us and sets us apart in Christ. We do not put ourselves in Christ with our belief, because that leaves out God putting us in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31

 

[MamaZ]

Hi Lighthearted, yes, certainly some people where chosen to be prophets and hence, once chosen to be God's prophet, they were predestined to be God's prophets. But that does cover the entire scope of how predestined is used in the Bible.

So God changed?

 

[yashualover]

Now, I'm not blotting out the understanding of predestination, I do agree that God had predestined many before time.

Let me ask this......are you who are speaking for predestination say that only the predestined will make it to heaven?

Or are you saying that there are the predestined and there are those who will have to be repentive sinners to get to heaven?

Only those who are predestined before the earth was created will go to heaven.

Those who are predestined will see their sin and their need of a savior and will repent and put their trust in Jesus Christ.

YHWH is Sovereign and had a complete plan before the earth was created.

 

[yashualover]

I always think it's easier to let Paul speak for himself, but to assure you he's clearly advocating that the predestined are those who love God, are called by God, and are glorified. Check on how Paul talks about "the saints" in Romans 8:

he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom 8:27-30
​

Is there some "excluded middle" group of people that are not predestined? There's no explicit, "no middle ground". But there are some things that easily deduce this. Scripture leaves no doubt as to how God chooses, and God is not choosing people as a result of what they do or want:

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:15-18
​

What does this mean for believing and being saved? Both are true. Faith is a necessary component for salvation, and God chooses those who have faith and saves them. The rancorous conflict is over the significant matter of whether the person has faith, God sees that beforehand and then predestines (invalidating Rom 9:16,18), or whether the person is just like anyone else, God begins a relationship with them by choosing him, predestining them, giving them the Spirit, and then the person believes and is saved (which gets into conflicts over free will).

Faith is not a work of ourselves, faith is a supernatural gift given to the elect to enable them to believe for without a supernatural intervention no one would believe, we must be born again or born from above. We are born dead in sins and would never choose God, all peoples are born God haters and would never choose Him unless His unmerrited favor (GRACE) is bestowed upon them.

Most people seem to have a love of God but have a false image of who God is and are serving a false god.

 

[Light hearted]

Van, sometimes I write too much, sometimes I write too little. Yes, without a doubt, we need to be drawn by God for the salvation to occur. Yet I believe we need to know the Gospel and the truth of Jesus Christ, at the time of God's calling.
As for Paul, I think there is no better story that Paul's to represent that we can go so far away from Godly manners, I mean, he actually wanted to kill every beliver, wow. Anyway, yes we do go the world's way til God steps in and opens our eyes.

yashualover, Ok, I'll use the word predestination, yet, we as mankind do not know who God has predestined, we have no clue. Everybody to us is a possible born again Christian, so the term predestination has no meaning in our world since we don't know the predestined ones. So we must treat everyone as a "possible predestination person" (ppp). Which gets us back to spreading the Gospel and doing it blindly. As Mamaz posted earlier, One believer plants the seed (of Jesus), later in life, the next believer waters the seed (of Jesus). This person has now has the feshy side of his life ready, now, at God's timing, if this person is one of God's predestined ones, God will draw this person and he is now chosen by God to recieve the Holy Spirit, his guarantee into heaven.

 

[MamaZ]

Van, sometimes I write too much, sometimes I write too little. Yes, without a doubt, we need to be drawn by God for the salvation to occur. Yet I believe we need to know the Gospel and the truth of Jesus Christ, at the time of God's calling.
As for Paul, I think there is no better story that Paul's to represent that we can go so far away from Godly manners, I mean, he actually wanted to kill every beliver, wow. Anyway, yes we do go the world's way til God steps in and opens our eyes.

yashualover, Ok, I'll use the word predestination, yet, we as mankind do not know who God has predestined, we have no clue. Everybody to us is a possible born again Christian, so the term predestination has no meaning in our world since we don't know the predestined ones. So we must treat everyone as a "possible predestination person" (ppp). Which gets us back to spreading the Gospel and doing it blindly. As Mamaz posted earlier, One believer plants the seed (of Jesus), later in life, the next believer waters the seed (of Jesus). This person has now has the feshy side of his life ready, now, at God's timing, if this person is one of God's predestined ones, God will draw this person and he is now chosen by God to recieve the Holy Spirit, his guarantee into heaven.

 

[Light hearted]

Am I getting closer MamaZ?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name...​

Hi, "Yashualover". Do you accept that this verse plainly asserts "becoming God's children, is by believing/receiving Jesus"?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ​

How many times has this verse been discussed? Two dozen? Three?

What are "the things of the Spirit of God"? Does that include "saving-belief-in-Christ"?

Verse 12: "We have received --- not the spirit of the world --- but the Spirit who is from God, that we may know the things freely given to us by God..."

100% established, is that received precedes knowing.
1. Belief in Jesus
2. Receive the Spirit (through belief in Jesus)
3. Revealing of deeper spiritual things

Undeniably, eternally established that "the things of the Spirit of God" does not include "saving-belief-in-Jesus".

You gotta find a way to refute what I just said, or else stop using this verse in any kind of a "predestination argument".

Quote:
Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...
Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. ​

Yeah, but you don't really believe that men CAN seek Him; rather, HE seeks CERTAIN-ELECT-MEN FIRST. That opposes Scripture.
"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe God IS, and that He is a REWARDER of those who SEEK Him." Heb11:6

In bold undeniable terms, those WHO SEEK God, He RECEIVES. Men must COME to Him BY faith. There is nothing of "God comes to men WITH men's faith (which He then GIFTS)".

Quote:
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. ​

See? "No one seeks or believes, THEREFORE God must seek certain few men FIRST".

Rom3:11 only repeats Psalms 14 & 53; it's "lamentation". In context with the whole:
"No one (in general) seeks; but he who seeks God, FINDS Him."

Prove that in Jeremiah 29:11-13, Matt7:7-9, Heb11:6, etcetera.

FURTHER, prove by Acts10:34-35 that God coming to men who do NOT fear Him NOR pursue righteousness is partiality that God is NOT.

See if you can deny that...

Quote:
Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you... ​

No, no no; "I chose you to be the TWELVE DISCIPLES, and ORDAINED that you bear fruit and your fruit would REMAIN."

If Jesus chose and ordained (predestined) all twelve, what happened to Judas?

Quote:
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. ​

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [/color][/indent]Sorry, Jesus very plainly said "I will DRAW ALL MEN to Myself". Jn12:32 If Jn6:44 uses "helkuo-draw-drag", and Jn12:32 uses "helkuo-draw-drag", then you're going to have to give up on the idea of "drawing with exclusivity".

ALL MEN are drawn to salvation; God wants ALL to be saved. There is NO one that God creates that He WANTS to perish.

Can we discuss 2Pet3:9?

Quote:
If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. I. How did we believe? ​

First, it is NOT true that "none seek after Him or callon His name or choose/receive/believe". You're at complete odds to explain Lk8:13; they believed joyfully. As with so many verses, beginning with "a-priori understandings" (no one can believe without God's sovereign monergistic election and regeneration) --- you're forced to say "they did NOT REALLY believe".

With respect --- do you know how many times "Predestined-Election" imposes upon Scripture, "NOT REALLY"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
A. His power
1. Ephesians 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power ​

See if there is any way to deny that "sealed-with-the-Spirit", is identical to "receive-the-Spirit". You can't; therefore, you're going to have to accept that Eph1:13 places "belief", before "receive". And this ruins the idea that "the Spirit must reveal spiritual things SO THAT men can then believe savingly in Jesus".

Quote:
2. 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
3. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
4. John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. ​

Do you deny the connection between this passage, and Jn17:6? And with Jn8:42? Those who belonged to God (which ONLY means "loved/worshipped the Father"), are THEN given to Jesus. "Given", means "BELIEVING".

None are given who are NOT (already!) believing God --- in short, that passage in Jn6 is asserting Jesus' AUTHORITY.

"Those who come to me, Father authorizes; those WHO belong-to/love God, He gives to ME".

Read 42 --- that's why Jesus is answering them, asserting His AUTHORITY.

"God GIVES them to ME."

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote
5. Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.​

Did God cause them to disbelieve and be disobedient in the Wilderness???

Quote
B. His gift
1. Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, ​

What does "granted" mean? Bestowed on few-whom-God-CHOOSES? No. It means "granted by Jesus' sacrifice, that all WHO believe, BE saved (and will suffer for it)."

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2. John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.​

But where is the exclusivity? You're still trying to assert "God INITIATES faith in those few whom He CHOOSES". Go back and read how soundly this concept is destroyed in Acts10:34-35:
"God is not partial, BUT he who reveres God and does right is welcome." At once, God is placed as RESPONDANT to man's consideration (opposite to what you perceive), and by saying the OPPOSITE of "respondant" is PARTIALITY, Peter clearly conveys "predestination is the PARTIALITY that God is NOT".

Tell me the refutation of that statement.

 

[Ben johnson]

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C. His grace
1. Acts 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;​

You think this says "BELIEF is through grace"? "Dia" means "by reason of", "on account of", "because of". And it FULLY fits the concept of Grace-the-PROVISION, and faith-the-FULFILLMENT.

On Gal2:8, Robertson says "Grace is GOD'S part, faith is OURS". I think Robertson knew more Greek than you and I combined.

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2. 1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. ​

Wait --- "through Christ believe in God"? Does that sound like "believe through grace"? Yes --- identical.

"Faith and hope are in God"? "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls". 1Pet1:9

The only question that separates us, is "which direction does saving-faith FLOW --- from God towards men, or from men towards God?"

God receives the faith of those who come by faith. Heb11:6

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3. Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

"Reconcilliation"? Have you ever answered Col2:21-23? Jesus has reconciled us to God through His body, if indeed we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus-the-Hope.

"Conditional reconcilliation", "Yashualover" --- conditioned on our continuing. Can you find some way to dispute that?

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II. Who will believe? John 5:39-44 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? ​

Wait wait wait --- they are unwilling to believe, because they seek their OWN glory rather than GOD'S?

Where is "because God has not CHOSEN you"?

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A. Those who have been given by the Father to the Son.
1. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. ​

Look again at Jn17:6; those WHO are "given", are those WHO "belong to the Father".

"Belong", conveys "belief/love". John8:42: "If God were your Father, then you would love Me." Do you deny this re-states "those who belong to God, He gives to Jesus"?

"If you believed Moses' words, then you would believe Mine; HOW can you believe Me, WHEN you do not believe Moses?" Jn5:47 You and I are trying to establish where is the decision --- on GOD'S shoulders, or on OURS. But Scripture shows they WOULD not believe, BECAUSE they sought their own glory rather than God's. This is re-stating that they would not believe Jesus BECAUSE they would not believe Moses.

1. If they believed Moses...
2. If they sought God's glory rather than their own...
3. If they belonged to God ("If God were your Father")

There is all of personal choice, and nothing of God's sovereign decree in this.

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2. John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. ​

We've established that "given" is "belief" --- in NO sense does Scripture EVER assert "given to Jesus and THEN they believe".

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3. John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
a. "They have kept Your word."​

Exactly; "THEY WERE YOURS --- before they were given to Me".

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4. John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
a. Christ prays only for them.​

When Christ prayed for Peter, that "his faith not fail" --- was his faith in danger of failing?

YES.

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5. John 17:11-12 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
6. John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.​

Establised is that "given = believing".
Established is that Jn6:37-44 is asserting Jesus' authority.
Established is that Jesus rebuked His listeners for REFUSING to believe.

It is never established that God chooses ANYONE'S belief. "Many are called but few chosen", contextually (Matt22:2-14), flat states that the "chosen" CHOSE THAT STATE THEMSELVES.