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Rightglory
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Ben Johnson,
Then Paul makes the transition to believers which is explained in summary in vs 8, they being part of the mass of humanity, are just as saved by Grace, but also through faith. Faith can ONLY give spiritual life, a relationship, which is why we can lose it. It is a relationship we are giving up, not eternal life. We can no more give it up than we had in generating it. Christ raised us up, all mankind, from death to life. He give LIFE to the world. He did not give a spiritual relationship to the world or to you. He calls you to have a relationship with Him only because you are now alive, all men are alive, physcially, they all will have an eternal existance.
You have no way of raising man at the end, yet Scripture says all men will be raised in the last day.
That nothing be destroyed is the point of Christ's Incarnation, so the universe is not destroyed through death. Perish is OK but it means separation also, and we are spiritually separted from Christ in hell as well. But hell is not destruction of the human being. It is ONLY a spiritual separation, a relational separation, man in hell is not physically separated from God. it is an impossiblity whereas death, the dust to dust is complete annihilation of man's existance as a human being.
Believing is the purpose and fulfilment of our being created in the first place, to have union. If God desires all men to believe and come to know Him, He at least is obligated to make them alive; How else would they become alive in order to hear, in order to believe other than through the Incarnation. You need the physical first, before you can have the spiritual. I Cor 15:46.
Thus those in hell do have eternal life (existance) but they are eternally spiritually separated from Christ. Two wholly different things. If an unbeliever does not have life, then He cannot experience hell, he does not exist in order to do so. You left him already condemned to death, physical non-existance through Adam. the text is correct. As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. It is speaking of physical existance. Adam did not separate us from God spiritually. We do that on our own.
Spiritually dead man do believe, but they must FIRST HAVE PHYSICAL LIFE, an eternal quality, an eternal existance, if they are going to have an eternal relationship with Christ.
However, God permitted Death, physical death to be the punishment for that sin. Man became mortal. He fell from his former state of being which was not mortal. He lost life, eternal existance. ONLY Christ can restore life and you want to deny that very Work of Christ on the Cross for His created order. All of creation fell due to that physical condemnation. It is why the universe needed life as well as man.
Explain how your theology gets out of that quagmire?
Or maybe you really don't believe that God permitted the sentence of Death upon Adam. Gen 3:19 does not really mean what it says? Which is it?
But worse for your theology is that if the dead are not raised, then your faith is also in vain. Meaning, no one recieved life. No one was redeemed. If Christ did not raise the dead, then no dead will be raised, I Cor 15:14-19. It is speaking of all the dead, not dead believers. Same as at the general resurrection, it is ALL the dead, not just dead believers. There is never a distinction of the dead. Either Christ did in fact assume our human natures, raise them from death to life, OR He did not. If He did not as you want to attest by saying that unbeleivers, who are mankind, human beings, the very same essence as any other human being, including believers, were not raised. If so, then none were raised, Christ never arose from the Grave, never defeated death, physical death.
We are all still under Adam. Dust to dust.
But you actually in your theology also do not give man a choice. You have God ONLY redeeming those who will be saved, those who have faith. Since all those Christ redeemed will also be saved, what difference is that from RT theology?
But Scripture says, Christ reconciled the world to God, saved by grace, so that individual man could be called and freely reconcile himself to God by faith. A difference of saving the world, so that man could have union and communion with God and we do that by and through faith, a spiritual relationship.
Christ's work was to provide for the soul salvation of each person. That is done by justification by faith which then will warrent regeneration of a relationship that God/man lost due to the condemnation of death, physical death. Death precluded God and man to continue an eternal relationship. It is by being sanctified through our faith which is the salvation of our souls, a journey of living IN Christ faithfully. All because we were given the Gift of LIFE, and also our sins were atoned so that we might have them forgiven to be reconciled to God by and through faith.
Just using Eph 2 this would be incorrect as well. Vs 5 is referencing Christ's Work on the Cross, which is as A.T. Robertson says, is all Grace. Mankind receives life by Grace, Man has not a scintilla of imput into Christ's Work. Cannot effect it as you seem to want to do with faith. Then faith becomes an act of man for his salvation, which it is not. Grace gives life.
Then Paul makes the transition to believers which is explained in summary in vs 8, they being part of the mass of humanity, are just as saved by Grace, but also through faith. Faith can ONLY give spiritual life, a relationship, which is why we can lose it. It is a relationship we are giving up, not eternal life. We can no more give it up than we had in generating it. Christ raised us up, all mankind, from death to life. He give LIFE to the world. He did not give a spiritual relationship to the world or to you. He calls you to have a relationship with Him only because you are now alive, all men are alive, physcially, they all will have an eternal existance.
You have no way of raising man at the end, yet Scripture says all men will be raised in the last day.
The Cross is the actualization of life. The Incarnation of Christ, assuming OUR human nature, not the human nature of beleivers as if they have a different essence than the rest of humanity. Maybe you need to develop a theological point that not all men are actually human beings, not created in God's Image, so that some can be treated as flotsam, can just be discarded away.
That nothing be destroyed is the point of Christ's Incarnation, so the universe is not destroyed through death. Perish is OK but it means separation also, and we are spiritually separted from Christ in hell as well. But hell is not destruction of the human being. It is ONLY a spiritual separation, a relational separation, man in hell is not physically separated from God. it is an impossiblity whereas death, the dust to dust is complete annihilation of man's existance as a human being.
Believing is the purpose and fulfilment of our being created in the first place, to have union. If God desires all men to believe and come to know Him, He at least is obligated to make them alive; How else would they become alive in order to hear, in order to believe other than through the Incarnation. You need the physical first, before you can have the spiritual. I Cor 15:46.
NO man including the very universe will not perish. Will not be detroyed by death. Christ is the victor over death. That is why all men will be raised in the last day. This firmament will be refined, it will not be destroyed. God called this world good, sin entered, but Christ is the victor over death, which is the cause of our sinning. All men will be raised immortal, incorruptible. NONE, absolutely NONE will be lost to death. John 6:39. Col 1:15-20. There are no exceptions, no exclusions in those verses.
that is your problem in your interpretation of Scritpure. If one died under the judgement of Adam, they also died spiritually. Which is why Christ was needed in the first place. It is the same problem you have on the other side, you want a relationship to give physical life which is an impossibility. They cannot be judged as they have already been condemned through Adam. Unbelievers do not die physcially twice just because they are unbelievers. They do not get raised, to have the same condemnation given to them, then they die physically again. What common sense it that? Also, then you have moved right into the theology of the Calvinists which also provides no hell for the unbeleivers. They leave them under the already condemnation of Adam which is death, dust. Theologically they do not have, cannot have, a general resurrection of all the dead based on Scripture.
Not the death Christ was victorious over. He overcame our physical death. Our mortality. The atonement provided for salvation from hell, or through faith. That is why we can lose faith, or we can become separated from God by sin if we don't repent, confess. Live as He commanded us. You understand this point, but you are contradicting your own theology when you say that faith grants life. If it does then one surely cannot lose it. Life is not a relationship, it is a state of being of existance. Now, it you are saying that a beleiver gets spiritual life by faith, that is correct, but then you have the physical problem. You have a dead man trying to believe, trying to have eternal life which ONLY Christ can give, not us, nor our faith. It is the Incarnation.
Thus those in hell do have eternal life (existance) but they are eternally spiritually separated from Christ. Two wholly different things. If an unbeliever does not have life, then He cannot experience hell, he does not exist in order to do so. You left him already condemned to death, physical non-existance through Adam. the text is correct. As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. It is speaking of physical existance. Adam did not separate us from God spiritually. We do that on our own.
Agreed, but you still have a physical vs spiritual life problem. A dead man cannot hear, cannot respond, cannot have an eternal existance.
But Eph 2:5 is speaking about mankind. All the universe is saved by Grace, all have been given life, physical existance. But those that believe of all of humanity will also be soul saved through faith, a spiritual relationship, vs a physical state of being.
Spiritually dead man do believe, but they must FIRST HAVE PHYSICAL LIFE, an eternal quality, an eternal existance, if they are going to have an eternal relationship with Christ.
However, God permitted Death, physical death to be the punishment for that sin. Man became mortal. He fell from his former state of being which was not mortal. He lost life, eternal existance. ONLY Christ can restore life and you want to deny that very Work of Christ on the Cross for His created order. All of creation fell due to that physical condemnation. It is why the universe needed life as well as man.
I have no idea how that condemnation is even relevant to a faith based theology. They have never explained it as far as I know.
then explain to me just how a person who is already condemned through Adam, to a physical death, annihilation, dust to dust, from whence man came, can experience hell. What is he in hell for in your view? It is not his sins, because they do not matter. It would actually not matter if he never sinned, he is already dead, condemned to a physical non-existance. It is the destruction of the human being as man was created to be. You also have a God who is willing to permit most of his created order to be destroyed by death, including man who bears His very Image. What kind of a God is that? Can it be love? Is God love? or death?
Explain how your theology gets out of that quagmire?
Or maybe you really don't believe that God permitted the sentence of Death upon Adam. Gen 3:19 does not really mean what it says? Which is it?
Then hell is empty. No one is eligible to go there based on your theology. You leave most of humanity under the condemnation of ADam, death.
But worse for your theology is that if the dead are not raised, then your faith is also in vain. Meaning, no one recieved life. No one was redeemed. If Christ did not raise the dead, then no dead will be raised, I Cor 15:14-19. It is speaking of all the dead, not dead believers. Same as at the general resurrection, it is ALL the dead, not just dead believers. There is never a distinction of the dead. Either Christ did in fact assume our human natures, raise them from death to life, OR He did not. If He did not as you want to attest by saying that unbeleivers, who are mankind, human beings, the very same essence as any other human being, including believers, were not raised. If so, then none were raised, Christ never arose from the Grave, never defeated death, physical death.
We are all still under Adam. Dust to dust.
I agree that predestination of a person to believe is not scriptural and it does deny the very Image of God in man, a being created to be free, a moral agent with a rational soul. But you are also making God very unjust and without much mercy also. You have Him, theologically ONLY saving some of humanity from death. Then, purposely, predestined so to speak, left most of humanity consigned to death, extinction, annihilation, dust to dust. Yet, God says that He permitted this consignment of death upon all, just so He could have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32. It also denies that Christ gave life, from Rom 5:18-19 as well as I Cor 15:20-22 and other texts.
But you actually in your theology also do not give man a choice. You have God ONLY redeeming those who will be saved, those who have faith. Since all those Christ redeemed will also be saved, what difference is that from RT theology?
The paradigm has not changed one iota. It was the same from Gen 3:15 and will be until the very last day of time on this universe. We have all been saved by faith and through faith.
ONLY if you also believe that man can save himself. Because that is exactly what you are saying. Our faith, saves us.
But Scripture says, Christ reconciled the world to God, saved by grace, so that individual man could be called and freely reconcile himself to God by faith. A difference of saving the world, so that man could have union and communion with God and we do that by and through faith, a spiritual relationship.
Sanctification and regeneration have nothing to do with the Cross. Trees and the universe were not sanctifed, made holy, nor were they regenerated into a relationship with Christ.
Christ's work was to provide for the soul salvation of each person. That is done by justification by faith which then will warrent regeneration of a relationship that God/man lost due to the condemnation of death, physical death. Death precluded God and man to continue an eternal relationship. It is by being sanctified through our faith which is the salvation of our souls, a journey of living IN Christ faithfully. All because we were given the Gift of LIFE, and also our sins were atoned so that we might have them forgiven to be reconciled to God by and through faith.
He died and was resurrected, gave life so that any human being can believe. A dead man cannot believe. He theologically does not exist. He is dust. All men experience God's Grace, our very lives depend on His grace. It does not depend on faith. If it did man would have all evaporated long ago.
But to even exercise faith, or even our consciences as Paul states all men have in Rom 1:18-20, man needs life as well. A dead man, a man who will have no eternal existance, precludes God from ever having a relationship with him. It would be futile and very short lived, as that human being would simply die and cease to exist. That is the theological understanding of the fall, the salvation from the fall, to the renewal of the God/man communion for which we were created. It is what Scripture has stated for a very long time, in spite of your personal interpretation of some verses and meaning of theological terminology.
You can go back to the other one we had, which you never came back to answer all those theological questions. The same ones raised here.
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