Predestination and Election

[Ben johnson]

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You know, it does absolutely no good to reason with a person who thinks that they played a part in their salvation. You and others like you are the reason why I don't post here any more. And I want to thank you for reminding me of just why I will stay out of this room.​

In 1Tim4:16, Paul says “save yourselves” (and by our own diligence). In 2Pet1:5-10, Peter says “therefore (against the man who FELL), be all the more diligent about your calling and election …that the gates of Heaven BE provided to you.” In Rm5:17, “Those WHO receive the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness shall reign with Christ”.

You say “it does no good to reason with such as me”; but here I’ve invested vast amounts of time in you, not REASONING but documenting every position with clear SCRIPTURE. I ask you the same question --- did it do any good for me to invest that time?

You have no choice, you know; you must respond. For if I’m wrong, then not-responding allows me to promote falsehood. And if RIGHT, then not-responding would oppose God.

Once again, understand that my only motivation is to cause BOTH of us to mature in Christ, to come to complete grasping of Jesus’ Gospel. I do not doubt your heart yearns after Christ; your enthusiasm is commendable, and I would NEVER do ANYTHING to dampen your obvious love for God and Christ. Yet if your understanding is conflicting with Scripture --- what harm can it do to teach you truth?

May the results of these discussions, serve ONLY to promote Jesus’ Gospel, serve to glorify God, and serve to increase love fellowship and maturity among us, Jesus’ followers. May the world see something in these discussions that leads them to Christ.

 

[frumanchu]

"Predestineation and Election" asserts men are passive in their regeneration. But Jesus says:

"He who hears My words AND ACTS upon them, is as a wise man who...
He who hears My words and DOES NOT ACT on them, is as a foolish man who..." Matt7:24-27

There is only one possible meaning for "ACTS" --- it is to BELIEVE.

It then follows irresistibly that you believe faith is a WORK, and thus we are saved by our WORK of faith. (How can you have an action that is not a work?)

That cannot stand up to the test of Scripture.

If saving-faith is irresistible to those whom God elects and regenerates, then our "acting" can NOT be avoided, and Jesus' words are nonsense.

False conclusion based on the above false premise.

"Acting", is "believing"; it's not passive, it's active.

Jesus meant what He said, and I believe Him.

You believe what you THINK He meant. That's not the same.

(BTW, hope all is well with you)

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

"Predestineation and Election" asserts men are passive in their regeneration. But Jesus says:

"He who hears My words AND ACTS upon them, is as a wise man who...
He who hears My words and DOES NOT ACT on them, is as a foolish man who..." Matt7:24-27

Ben - come back and respond to me on John 3. I believe I have already proven that Jesus teaches regeneration prior to justification.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

or my paraphrase-

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is regenerated he cannot perceive the things needed for salvation."

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
It then follows irresistibly that you believe faith is a WORK, and thus we are saved by our WORK of faith. (How can you have an action that is not a work?)​

Faith is a work. Jn6:29 is very clear: "This is the WORK of God, that you believe in Him whom God sent."

....and, in context:
Jesus: "Do not work for the food which perishes,
....but for the food which endures to eternal life,
....which the Son of Man will give to you,
....for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Jews: "What shall we do, so that we may WORK the works of God?"
Jesus: "This is the WORK of God, that you BELIEVE."

Believing is God's work that WE WORK.

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That cannot stand up to the test of Scripture.​

Faith being the WORK OF GOD, does not remove it from our choice; we work the works of God.

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False conclusion based on the above false premise.​

How does Jesus say "He who ACTS" (and he who does NOT act) --- in the paradigm of "all acting comes FROM God's sovereign choice"?

Under "P&E", 100% of those WHO act, do so because of God's sovereign election (and monergistic regeneration). And 100% of those who do NOT act, do not because of God's NON-election.

Therefore, what possible reason would Jesus have to call men "WISE", who only do what God ORDAINS? Or to call "foolish" those who only do what God has (by neglect) also ordained?

Men are not wise or foolish because God sovereignly chooses or neglects them; calling them "wise" or "foolish", only makes sense if they made a conscious choice. We can choose wisely, or we can choose foolishly. If God chooses, then we are not wise or foolish for His choice.

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You believe what you THINK He meant. That's not the same.​

I suppose you're right; and you believe what you think He meant. That's why we debate Scripture --- to come to better understanding of what Scripture writers and speakers meant.

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(BTW, hope all is well with you)​

With sincerity and grattitude, thank you. Even when you meant me harm, with all my heart I wished you only good things, deeper walk with God and higher maturity in Christ. I still wish you that, always will. I know you wish the same for me. Some day we will be beyond these debates. Jesus will be here, and I pray both of us will find ourselves in the clouds with Him.

You --- and I --- fully deserve Hell. There is NO one who does not. Yet because of an incredible gift given long ago, purchased by blood and the very life of the One, we shall NOT receive what we deserve; we are forgiven for what we could never repay. Such a love that was willing to DIE for us --- I cannot understand. Not completely. But I can be TERRIBLY grateful.

Whatever our disagreements, let's agree that this is the time to tell the world of Him; for He will return, and the door will close. The door is open now.

...you will be amazed to find out how soon that door is closing.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, JF! I plan to respond.

 

[MamaZ]

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now notice that this is the work of God.. not the work you do for God.. So it is Gods work that you believe in Him and not your own work..

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, "MamaZ". Scripture is clear:

"Do not WORK for perishable food, but (WORK) for the food which endures to eternal life."
"What must we DO, that we may WORK the works of God?"
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom God sent."

 

[heymikey80]

Quote:
(e) As incapable of knowing or discerning the things of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14;​

Here is one of my great frustrations. This verse has been refuted dozens of times. That refutation is so obvious and undeniable, the verse cannot be used in Calvinistic discussions; but it is, time and again.

The verse is posted, the refutation given; days pass and it's posted again. The refutation given again. More days pass, and the verse is cited again.

This is the refutation:
1Cor2:14 "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he CANNOT understand them." Alone, this verse seems to say "Unregenerate men cannot believe in Christ, for all spiritual things are foolishness."

First, focus on "spiritual things". Now, read verse 12: "We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God, that we may know the things freely given by God."

Are the "THINGS" in verse 14, the same "THINGS" as in verse 12? YES. How are those "THINGS" revealed, in verse 12? By the RECEIVED Spirit. So the Spirit is received by belief in Jesus, and THEN the deeper spiritual things are revealed. Thus, "SAVING-BELIEF", is not one of the "THINGS" in verse 14.

Here are three choices for the "Reformed Theologian":
1. Present a way that the Spirit can be received APART from belief
2. Accept that “things” in this verse CANNOT include "saving-belief in Jesus"
3. Ignore the refutation, and re-cite the verse in the future as if nothing has been said.

I mean no disrespect, especially with #3; but as many times as this refutation has been given, it's been completely ignored.

Unless there is some way proposed to deny "received Spirit denotes saving-faith, PRIOR to understanding spiritual things", this verse can never again be used in a Calvinistic discussion.

And my great frustration is that even though you've presented this and I've answered it, you constantly try to close off its use.

You've proposed three -- I'll add one -- that I don't have to subdivide the text by presuming it is directly relevant to soteriological information, in order to apply it back to soteriological information.

Not everything is soteriology. The fact that Paul wasn't using this point in a directly soteriological way (as a "how to" of salvation) doesn't deprive it of the fact that carnal people didn't comprehend what the Spirit was saying, and so rejected Christ. "the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" 1 Cor 2:8 That's a clear demonstration that lack of faith definitely disconnects someone from what the Spirit's saying. By the same token, those born again did comprehend what was revealed to them, and so believed and accepted Christ.

The two don't happen the same way because faith isn't a cause or effect. It's an instrument of the spiritually-reborn (1 John 5:1). And that's the basic problem with the idea of faith before rebirth. Faith's not a cause.

Otherwise,
(1) are you saying carnal people can be spiritual people? Or
(2) that the unborn are born? What is it you're saying --
(3) that the data contains enough light to lead them to ... some lower rung of faith, and that the Spirit will bootstrap them the rest of the way? What is it about that lower rung isn't a personal accomplishment, an "I did that"?

As the Spirit of God reveals things, the Spirit of God can be outside you or inside you. The Spirit of God can reveal whatever He wants to anyone He wants. But that doesn't mean the person will instantly understand spiritual things. It's quite obvious that carnal people are exposed to spiritual truth, and don't recognize what it's getting at.

 

[yashualover]

Hi, "MamaZ". Scripture is clear:

"Do not WORK for perishable food, but (WORK) for the food which endures to eternal life."
"What must we DO, that we may WORK the works of God?"
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom God sent."

Ben, that's after a person is born again or born from above, not before!

 

[MamaZ]

Hi, "MamaZ". Scripture is clear:

"Do not WORK for perishable food, but (WORK) for the food which endures to eternal life."
"What must we DO, that we may WORK the works of God?"
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom God sent."

So when we are born again what are we to do? Cast ALL of our cares upon Him.. We enter into Gods eternal rest when we are born again. For it is not our work but His work that saves us.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Heymikey80:
And my great frustration is that even though you've presented this and I've answered it, you constantly try to close off its use.

You've proposed three -- I'll add one -- that I don't have to subdivide the text by presuming it is directly relevant to soteriological information, in order to apply it back to soteriological information.

Not everything is soteriology.​

Hi, "Mikey". What does that mean? You've said it often enough; but the greatest part of Jesus' ministry is "the Son was sent that whosoever believes may have eternal life". Perhaps not every last word in Scripture is "soteriology" --- but what IS soteriology, is soteriology.

Quote:'
The fact that Paul wasn't using this point in a directly soteriological way (as a "how to" of salvation) doesn't deprive it of the fact that carnal people didn't comprehend what the Spirit was saying, and so rejected Christ.​

THey did in Acts2:37. THe jailer did in Acts16:31. The Eunich did with Philip. Throughout Scripture unregenerate men BELIEVE.

Quote:
"the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" 1 Cor 2:8 That's a clear demonstration that lack of faith definitely disconnects someone from what the Spirit's saying. By the same token, those born again did comprehend what was revealed to them, and so believed and accepted Christ.​

Show me where, anywhere, that anyone "believed AFTER regeneration". Where is that?

Regeneration is by the RECEIVED Spirit.

QUote:
The two don't happen the same way because faith isn't a cause or effect.​

Faith is causal to salvation in 1Pet1:9. It's causal in Jn20:29.

Quote:
It's an instrument of the spiritually-reborn (1 John 5:1).​

Wrong --- 1Jn5:10 says condemation is for those who BELIEVED NOT. Verse 1 asserts those who ARE born of God believes --- perfectly fitting "were born the MOMENT they believed". Doesn't establish what you want it to establish.

Quote:
And that's the basic problem with the idea of faith before rebirth. Faith's not a cause.​

It is in Lk21:19. It is in 1Tim4:16. It is in Col1:21-23. Matt9:22, 15:28, Mk5:34, 10:52, Lk8:48, 17:9. You're severely "outvoted" by Scripture.

Quote:
(1) are you saying carnal people can be spiritual people?​

Can "carnal people" become convicted and believe in Jesus?
YES!

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(2) that the unborn are born? What is it you're saying -- ​

The "unborn", are born THROUGH faith. Period. God receives faith, not causes it --- Heb11:6.

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(3) that the data contains enough light to lead them to ... some lower rung of faith, and that the Spirit will bootstrap them the rest of the way? What is it about that lower rung isn't a personal accomplishment, an "I did that"?​

What is 2Tim3:15 saying? Can "studying the Scripture", impart wisdom that leads to "saving-faith"?

Is there any way you can deny what Paul wrote?

Quote:
As the Spirit of God reveals things, the Spirit of God can be outside you or inside you. The Spirit of God can reveal whatever He wants to anyone He wants. But that doesn't mean the person will instantly understand spiritual things. It's quite obvious that carnal people are exposed to spiritual truth, and don't recognize what it's getting at.​

This verse (1Cor2:14) plainly states that the RECEIVED Spirit reveals the things of the Spirit, in both verses (12 & 14). Unless you find some way to receive the Spirit APART from faith, this verse is removed forever from Calvinistic discussions.

BTW, I did a whole series of posts in response to Dean; clear and meticulous treatments of Scriptural points. You responded to only one --- would you be willing to respond to others?

Thanx for this response. I think you're beginning to see that "sovereign-predestination" is really untenable.

 

[beloved57]

THey did in Acts2:37. THe jailer did in Acts16:31. The Eunich did with Philip. Throughout Scripture unregenerate men BELIEVE.

All those were born again already sorry..

 

[yashualover]

Quoted by Heymikey80:
And my great frustration is that even though you've presented this and I've answered it, you constantly try to close off its use.

You've proposed three -- I'll add one -- that I don't have to subdivide the text by presuming it is directly relevant to soteriological information, in order to apply it back to soteriological information.

Not everything is soteriology.
​

Hi, "Mikey". What does that mean? You've said it often enough; but the greatest part of Jesus' ministry is "the Son was sent that whosoever believes may have eternal life". Perhaps not every last word in Scripture is "soteriology" --- but what IS soteriology, is soteriology.

Quote:'
The fact that Paul wasn't using this point in a directly soteriological way (as a "how to" of salvation) doesn't deprive it of the fact that carnal people didn't comprehend what the Spirit was saying, and so rejected Christ.
​

THey did in Acts2:37. THe jailer did in Acts16:31. The Eunich did with Philip. Throughout Scripture unregenerate men BELIEVE.

Quote:
"the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" 1 Cor 2:8 That's a clear demonstration that lack of faith definitely disconnects someone from what the Spirit's saying. By the same token, those born again did comprehend what was revealed to them, and so believed and accepted Christ.
​

Show me where, anywhere, that anyone "believed AFTER regeneration". Where is that?

Regeneration is by the RECEIVED Spirit.

QUote:
The two don't happen the same way because faith isn't a cause or effect.
​

Faith is causal to salvation in 1Pet1:9. It's causal in Jn20:29.

Quote:
It's an instrument of the spiritually-reborn (1 John 5:1).
​

Wrong --- 1Jn5:10 says condemation is for those who BELIEVED NOT. Verse 1 asserts those who ARE born of God believes --- perfectly fitting "were born the MOMENT they believed". Doesn't establish what you want it to establish.

Quote:
And that's the basic problem with the idea of faith before rebirth. Faith's not a cause.
​

It is in Lk21:19. It is in 1Tim4:16. It is in Col1:21-23. Matt9:22, 15:28, Mk5:34, 10:52, Lk8:48, 17:9. You're severely "outvoted" by Scripture.

Quote:
(1) are you saying carnal people can be spiritual people?
​

Can "carnal people" become convicted and believe in Jesus?
YES!

Quote:
(2) that the unborn are born? What is it you're saying --
​

The "unborn", are born THROUGH faith. Period. God receives faith, not causes it --- Heb11:6.

Quote:
(3) that the data contains enough light to lead them to ... some lower rung of faith, and that the Spirit will bootstrap them the rest of the way? What is it about that lower rung isn't a personal accomplishment, an "I did that"?
​

What is 2Tim3:15 saying? Can "studying the Scripture", impart wisdom that leads to "saving-faith"?

Is there any way you can deny what Paul wrote?

Quote:
As the Spirit of God reveals things, the Spirit of God can be outside you or inside you. The Spirit of God can reveal whatever He wants to anyone He wants. But that doesn't mean the person will instantly understand spiritual things. It's quite obvious that carnal people are exposed to spiritual truth, and don't recognize what it's getting at.
​

This verse (1Cor2:14) plainly states that the RECEIVED Spirit reveals the things of the Spirit, in both verses (12 & 14). Unless you find some way to receive the Spirit APART from faith, this verse is removed forever from Calvinistic discussions.

BTW, I did a whole series of posts in response to Dean; clear and meticulous treatments of Scriptural points. You responded to only one --- would you be willing to respond to others?

Thanx for this response. I think you're beginning to see that "sovereign-predestination" is really untenable.

Regeneration must preceed faith because man is DEAD in trespasses and does not and can not choose God.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

 

[frumanchu]

What does that mean? You've said it often enough; but the greatest part of Jesus' ministry is "the Son was sent that whosoever believes may have eternal life". Perhaps not every last word in Scripture is "soteriology" --- but what IS soteriology, is soteriology.

He means just what he says...not everything is soteriology. You saying "what IS soteriology is soteriology" does not automatically confer a soteriological meaning upon the passage in question.

THey did in Acts2:37. THe jailer did in Acts16:31. The Eunich did with Philip. Throughout Scripture unregenerate men BELIEVE.

WRONG. Your statement implicitly carries an assumption of your conclusion. What these passages show is that men who were once unregenerate BELIEVE. You cannot prove at all from the passages you cited alone that they were unregenerate at the point of faith.

Show me where, anywhere, that anyone "believed AFTER regeneration". Where is that?

quid pro quo...show me where, anywhere that anyone "believed BEFORE regeneration." You can't without assuming the very conclusion you are trying to prove: that belief precedes regeneration

Regeneration is by the RECEIVED Spirit.

WRONG. Rightly said, regeneration is by the same Spirit we receive upon belief. Your interpretation of Titus 3:4-6 [post=47800493]does not stand up under consistent application to the rest of Scripture.[/post]

Wrong --- 1Jn5:10 says condemation is for those who BELIEVED NOT. Verse 1 asserts those who ARE born of God believes --- perfectly fitting "were born the MOMENT they believed". Doesn't establish what you want it to establish.

That is an argument of convenience with absolutely no linguistic or hermeneutic validity. I could just as easily say it "fits perfectly" with "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is THEN born of God." The fact of the matter is such is much more easily in harmony with the way it is written than your interpretation.

Can "carnal people" become convicted and believe in Jesus?

No, that's not what he asked. He didn't ask if carnal people can become spiritual people, he asked if carnal people can be spiritual people.

What is 2Tim3:15 saying? Can "studying the Scripture", impart wisdom that leads to "saving-faith"?

Is there any way you can deny what Paul wrote?

One need not deny what Paul wrote to deny what you claim he meant.

If Scripture alone were sufficient to lead to saving faith, then all who read and studied it would be saved. Yet is it undeniable that this does not happen. All the knowledge of the things of God cannot itself save. Only the trust in the Truth can truly save. Only through the Spirit do the "words of wisdom" take hold and convict (1 Cor 2:4-5)

This verse (1Cor2:14) plainly states that the RECEIVED Spirit reveals the things of the Spirit, in both verses (12 & 14). Unless you find some way to receive the Spirit APART from faith, this verse is removed forever from Calvinistic discussions.

And again, as was already stated, not every verse in Scripture is spoken in a soteriological context.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
​

The biggest challenge you have in this entire chapter, Ben, is to convince everyone that every instance of "we" refers to all believers, and that simply cannot be done. You also have to convince everyone that the topic(s) Paul repeatedly refers to is the preaching of the essential Gospel to sinners, which again cannot be done in light of the fact that Paul clearly shifts focus to "speaking among the mature" (clearly to believers). His statement that we have received the Spirit of God merely reinforces the fact that the wisdom they are speaking to the mature (believers)...that same wisdom which the natural man does not accept because they are foolish and do not understand because they are spiritually appraised...is indeed the deeper things of God.

You are trying to set up some sort of logical soteriological order out of this passage, and it simply doesn't work because it was never intended to BE such a thing.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Yashualover:
Regeneration must preceed faith because man is DEAD in trespasses and does not and can not choose God.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol.../sproul01.html​

Hi, "Yashualover". Sproul errs on many points; not the least of which is Jn3:3, Sproul thinks "see" is "perceive". We've proven it is not --- see Lk9:27.

Quote:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ​

I'm pleased you quoted verse 12; those who believe, gain the right to become adopted children.

The begottenness is all of Him and nothing of us --- but becoming begotten is by believing and receiving Jesus.

Quote
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

​

Do you deny that Rom11:32 says "God has mercy on ALL"?

 

[beloved57]

but becoming begotten is by believing and receiving Jesus.

No its not..Its a Sovereign act of God alone..man is passive therein..

 

[DArceri]

Do you deny that Rom11:32 says "God has mercy on ALL"?
​

Hey Ben,
When the word all is stated here, the intention of the word does not mean all the world will be saved. One has to look at what Paul has been preaching throughout his epistles. A scriptural assumption takes a back seat to explicit truth found elsewhere in scripture. If you read Romans 3 you will see that Paul states that no one seeks after God in their unregenerated state. In Ephesians 2 Paul states that God, being rich in His mercy has made us alive when we were dead in our sins. Even Jesus Himself, in prayer to the Father says, "I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."-Jn 17:9

But hey, if you believe all means all, then how do you rectify these verses?

Mk 1:5
And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Acts 13:24
Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

 

[nobdysfool]

Ben is still preaching "Shake 'n' Bake" theology...."Jesus saved me, an' I helped!"

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Beloved57:
No it's not..It's a Sovereign act of God alone..​

Have you erased verse 12 from your copy, "Beloved57"? The begottenness is clearly stated in verse 13 to be "nothing of men, but all of God"; but becoming begotten, is by believing and receiving Jesus. These are JOHN'S words, not mine.

Quote:
man is passive therein..
​

What do you think "ACTS ON THEM" means, in Matt7:24-27?

Is there anything OTHER than "believes" that it could mean?

God's position is to receive those who come to Him by faith, in Heb11:6. And in Acts10:34-35, the opposite of God welcoming/receiving those who come to Him WITH reverence AND desiring righteousness, is "partiality" that God is NOT.

Can you deny that "Sovereign Predestination" makes God "partial" --- when Peter said "He is NOT"? (Paul said it too, in places like Col3:24...)

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
Ben is still preaching "Shake 'n' Bake" theology...."Jesus saved me, an' I helped!"​

That's very disrespectful, and very inaccurate. We helped Jesus in our salvation, in NO way nor amount. But we received His gift of grace.

I don't know how anyone can deny "dual responsibility", in light of verses like 1Tim4:16, 1Pet1:9, Lk21:19, Jd1:20-21, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, Heb3:6-14 (and 4:11!!!), and so many others. "Dual responsibility" is best asserted in 2Tim1:12-14. God guards what we entrust, and we guard what He entrusts. Is there anything else that could mean, but "dual responsibility"?

No.

It's easy to say something like "Shake-n-bake theology"; misrepresentation aside, wouldn't it be better to post in a theology forum, supporting your position with Scripture?

Will you? Can you?