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Pre: Why I know the flood is a fantasy

Basket

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You're not welcome. Try addressing my point, please.

Are you willing to admit that for 618 years there were no changes to God's Word --- as I demonstrated --- despite your allegation that it has been changed over time?

(I'm really interested in your answer to this, FB; but if you're going to attempt to dance your way out of it, please don't bother. It's an insult to my intelligence.)

I believe the main reason for changes in translations over time is the discovery of more manuscripts from which to translate from. As they find older manuscripts (and therefore those closer to the originals, without stuff added in) they can get a more reliable translation of the original scriptures.

Many modern translations do remove the reference to the trinity in 1 John 5:7-8. Even the NIV has removed it from the main verses, and adds as a footnote:

Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century).
 
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gamespotter10

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there is no evidence that the flood happened. it is a fantasy. plain and simple. we've found trees which thanks to tree ring dating, have been deternmined to be 11,000 years old. none of these trees show any evidence of a catastrophic flood that occured about 4000 years ago.

honestly, the idea that earth is 6000 years old is quite frankly retarded, irrational, and psychotic
 
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there is no evidence that the flood happened. it is a fantasy. plain and simple. we've found trees which thanks to tree ring dating, have been deternmined to be 11,000 years old. none of these trees show any evidence of a catastrophic flood that occured about 4000 years ago.

honestly, the idea that earth is 6000 years old is quite frankly retarded, irrational, and psychotic

I don't think they've found any individual trees that have been dated as 11,000 with tree ring dating. However, they have found groups of plants that seem to have been around for that long.

See http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0601.htm#oldest

I think this link was posted earlier in the thread.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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You're not welcome. Try addressing my point, please.

Are you willing to admit that for 618 years there were no changes to God's Word --- as I demonstrated --- despite your allegation that it has been changed over time?

(I'm really interested in your answer to this, FB; but if you're going to attempt to dance your way out of it, please don't bother. It's an insult to my intelligence.)
The passage in question was apparently not in the original Greek. This demonstrates my point and not yours. The fact that the men who wrote the King James version copied Wycliff fairly accurately at least for this single passage and the fact that the King James version have apparently been copied accurately since then is totally irrelevant. There are no orginal texts of the New Testament and there is nothing like original text of the old around anywhere. Again I thank you for demonstrating my point for me by showing that what men have believed to be God's word has changed with time even for the New Testament.

From the webpage I linked on the Johannine Comma, with some emphasis added.


These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus:
Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt.​
From the Vulgate, then, it seems that the Comma was translated into Greek and inserted into some printed editions of the Greek text, and in a handful of late Greek manuscripts. All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. For example, the English Standard Version reads:
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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actually, yes, they have. with tree ring dating. are those 5000 years older than the universe?
Basket is right that there is no known single tree more than 5,000 years old. You may be thinking of the 11,000 year German Oak and Pine Chronologies that are used for calibrating radicarbon dates are based on analysis of multiple overlapping sets of tree rings and not a single tree.

There is a 12,460 year tree ring chronology from central Europe and it is also based on overlapping series. That is how dendrochronology works.

Tree ring dates match up well with annual laminations in lakes called varves and with dating of coral couplets. We discussed this evidence against the flood on a previous thread.
 
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gamespotter10

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Basket is right that there is no known single tree more than 5,000 years old. You may be thinking of the 11,000 year German Oak and Pine Chronologies that are used for calibrating radicarbon dates are based on analysis of multiple overlapping sets of tree rings and not a single tree.

There is a 12,460 year tree ring chronology from central Europe and it is also based on overlapping series. That is how dendrochronology works.

Tree ring dates match up well with annual laminations in lakes called varves and with dating of coral couplets. We discussed this evidence against the flood on a previous thread.
the oldest living tree is about 4800 years old yes, but dead trees have been found to be about 11,000 years old
 
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Basket

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The passage in question was apparently not in the original Greek. This demonstrates my point and not yours. The fact that the men who wrote the King James version copied Wycliff fairly accurately at least for this single passage and the fact that the King James version have apparently been copied accurately since then is totally irrelevant. There are no orginal texts of the New Testament and there is nothing like original text of the old around anywhere. Again I thank you for demonstrating my point for me by showing that what men have believed to be God's word has changed with time even for the New Testament.

I was looking this up, and I found that the Wycliffe Version was pretty much a translation of the Vulgate into English. The King James Version is an updated version of the Tyndale Bible. And the Tyndale Bible was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew, but it used the Vulgate as a reference as well. So that's probably why it had the verse referring to the trinity there.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/tyndale/1jo.txt

Just wanted to clear that up.

Edit: When I said "the original Greek and Hebrew" I should've realized that they aren't the original manuscripts and said that. So there.
 
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the oldest living tree is about 4800 years old yes, but dead trees have been found to be about 11,000 years old

I think we have a conflict on how we're saying how old a tree is. The oldest tree at its death was about 4,900+ years old (I linked to it near the beginning of the thread). It was just a bit confusing because it sounded like you were saying the trees from 11,000 years ago are still alive (or died at that age) and have that many rings.

So there we go. We were both right in our own ways. :)
 
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AV1611VET

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God could have sent five times that much water, if He wanted to, and we'd still never find it.
Either that, or He cleaned it up for sanitary and safety reasons. Ever think of that?
I wonder if there are any man-made messes around that need cleaning up right now?
 
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daniel192

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What about the natives in America, such as the Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, Indians and Eskimos? Why did they not know who God was and why did they not ride horses or why did they not have any alphabets that their ancestor Noah had?
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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What about the natives in America, such as the Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, Indians and Eskimos? Why did they not know who God was and why did they not ride horses or why did they not have any alphabets that their ancestor Noah had?
Because they were busy living the history that would become the Book of Mormon. ;)
 
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