Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Why not both?

[endofdayz]

I often here this debate and both sides have scriptures to support their point of view. Why can't both be right?

Why can't some Christians be taken at the beginning of the tribulation and some taken at the end of the tribulation?

Here's the scenario.

At the beginning of the tribulation, some Christians are taken. This isn't seen as the Rapture because a lot of well known Christians weren't taken. So this is called an invasion.

The antichrist and his system will say we can protect you from being taken if they come back if you do what we say or take this mark which I believe will be a name of blasphemy.

Christians will resist and die along with the two witnesses during the tribulation and the ones that are still alive that are in the 1st Resurrection will be transformed when Christ returns.

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I often here this debate and both sides have scriptures to support their point of view. Why can't both be right?

Why can't some Christians be taken at the beginning of the tribulation and some taken at the end of the tribulation?

Here's the scenario.

At the beginning of the tribulation, some Christians are taken. This isn't seen as the Rapture because a lot of well known Christians weren't taken. So this is called an invasion.

The antichrist and his system will say we can protect you from being taken if they come back if you do what we say or take this mark which I believe will be a name of blasphemy.

Christians will resist and die along with the two witnesses during the tribulation and the ones that are still alive that are in the 1st Resurrection will be transformed when Christ returns.

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

In the beginning of acts it is indicated that knowing the seasons the Father set in His power is not for us to know, but to preach the gospel.

However, nowadays, people bundle in their eschatology in with their gospel. Something's off with the foundation, that's for sure.

 

[endofdayz]

In the beginning of acts it is indicated that knowing the seasons the Father set in His power is not for us to know, but to preach the gospel.

However, nowadays, people bundle in their eschatology in with their gospel. Something's off with the foundation, that's for sure.

Good points and God isn't the author of confusion so why is there so much confusion with believers around the tribulation?

I think both sides need to stop being so rigid because they both could be talking over each other while both are right.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

so why is there so much confusion with believers around the tribulation?

probably because the fiction surrounding a 7 year peace treaty just makes a nice story.

 

[Guojing]

I often here this debate and both sides have scriptures to support their point of view. Why can't both be right?

Why can't some Christians be taken at the beginning of the tribulation and some taken at the end of the tribulation?

Here's the scenario.

At the beginning of the tribulation, some Christians are taken. This isn't seen as the Rapture because a lot of well known Christians weren't taken. So this is called an invasion.

The antichrist and his system will say we can protect you from being taken if they come back if you do what we say or take this mark which I believe will be a name of blasphemy.

Christians will resist and die along with the two witnesses during the tribulation and the ones that are still alive that are in the 1st Resurrection will be transformed when Christ returns.

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

The Body of Christ will be taken away pre-tribulation.

However, there will be many gentiles who will be saved during the Tribulation, thru helping national Israel (Matthew 25:31-46) and resisting the mark of the beast, so yes, they will enter the millennial kingdom, but not transformed though.

So in that sense, you are correct.

 

[sandman]

The scenario would be fine if you were writing the Book ....but I think we have to leave it as God designed it.
It's not complicated and works out for all of us.
The church of God is raptured both dead and living ..........adios
Then as a thief in the night does the tribulation times start ....But we are not here....The Bible declares.... So shall we ever be with the Lord....and if "so shall we ever be with the Lord".... we will come back here when He returns to the Mt of Olives....whenever 7 years???

 

[Minister Monardo]

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

Wanting to be 'right' is not the same as love for the truth. Pursue truth by the Spirit of truth,
not debating, with scriptures that seem to support the position. Truth must be revealed to you.
Here is the Holy Spirit remedy for divisions over scriptures, and interpretation.
Philippians 2:
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,
let us be of the same mind.

Take the Lord's advice: Ask, and it will be given to you. Did the Lord reveal this to you?

Here's the scenario.

Or are you just proposing a thought experiment? "have this mind"
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Keeping in mind that the opposite could also be true. They both could be wrong.

 

[Minister Monardo]

However, there will be many gentiles who will be saved during the Tribulation, thru helping national Israel (Matthew 25:31-46) and resisting the mark of the beast, so yes, they will enter the millennial kingdom, but not transformed though.

What does Matthew 25:31-46 have to do with tribulation?
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Are you saying that this is a description of the tribulation? Sounds like the state of things
from the founding of the congregation of Israel. The nations who come against Israel will not
stand at the judgment, they will be destroyed at His coming.
2 Thessalonians 1:
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not
obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day....
Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
Psalms 1:
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

 

[Guojing]

What does Matthew 25:31-46 have to do with tribulation?
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Are you saying that this is a description of the tribulation? Sounds like the state of things
from the founding of the congregation of Israel. The nations who come against Israel will not
stand at the judgment, they will be destroyed at His coming.

Matthew 24 and 25 form the Olivet discourse, and Jesus is describing the end times to the 12

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 25:31-46 explains what happens at the end of the Tribulation, where gentiles of all nations will be judged based on whether they helped national Israel or not, as you quoted from vs 35 onwards.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Matthew 24 and 25 forms the Olivet discourse, and Jesus is describing the end times to the 12

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24, no doubt. Matthew 25? Will you explain the connection to tribulation,
the topic of the thread?
The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins and The Parable of the Talents are prologue
to the Son of Man Will Judge the Nations, post tribulation.
Some put 1000 years between Matthew 24 and the judgment of 25.
Now we are having fun.

The Body of Christ will be taken away pre-tribulation.

Says those who hold to pre-tribulation.
So now we have two raptures? That is awesome! We'll see if that ends the debate. yeah!

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 24, no doubt. Matthew 25? Will you explain the connection to tribulation,
the topic of the thread?
The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins and The Parable of the Talents are prologue
to the Son of Man Will Judge the Nations, post tribulation.
Some put 1000 years between Matthew 24 and the judgment of 25.
Now we are having fun.

Says those who hold to pre-tribulation.
So now we have two raptures? That is awesome! We'll see if that ends the debate. yeah!

If you believe there are 1000 years between 24 and 25, then I can see why you will form a different view about the sheep and goat judgement from mine. We can agree to disagree.

As for your final point, I didn't say there are 2 raptures, the believing gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation will enter the millennial kingdom, they are not raptured.

 

[Minister Monardo]

As for your final point, I didn't say there are 2 raptures, the believing gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation will enter the millennial kingdom, they are not raptured.

That is what was proposed by the OP, to which you replied.
"So in that sense, you are correct".
It really wasn't my point. I was trying to be clear on the point of the OP, and your reply.
If you are saying this above: "the believing gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation
will enter the millennial kingdom, they are not raptured", then how are you NOT putting
a thousand years between the tribulation and the judgment? Losing me here.

 

[Guojing]

That is what was proposed by the OP, to which you replied.
"So in that sense, you are correct".
It really wasn't my point. I was trying to be clear on the point of the OP, and your reply.
If you are saying this above: "the believing gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation
will enter the millennial kingdom, they are not raptured", then how are you NOT putting
a thousand years between the tribulation and the judgment? Losing me here.

When I use the phrase in that sense, I was trying to find a way to agree with the op.

You are misinterpreting me as saying there are 2 raptures

The sheep and goat judgement happen immediately after the tribulation, I never said there is a 1000 year gap, it was you who believed that

 

[Minister Monardo]

You are misinterpreting me as saying there are 2 raptures

No sir. I was not misinterpreting you, I was responding to the lack of clarity in your response.
The OP is postulating 2 raptures. So why were you trying to agree? I will now interpret your
clarification as saying you disagree. Cool. Thanks.
And what about this?

If you are saying this above: "the believing gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation
will enter the millennial kingdom, they are not raptured", then how are you NOT putting
a thousand years between the tribulation and the judgment? Losing me here.

 

[Guojing]

No sir. I was not misinterpreting you, I was responding to the lack of clarity in your response.
The OP is postulating 2 raptures. So why were you trying to agree? I will now interpret your
clarification as saying you disagree. Cool. Thanks.
And what about this?

See my last paragraph in my post.

 

[Minister Monardo]

See my last paragraph in my post.

Good answer.

 

[Guojing]

Good answer.

If you don't understand that paragraph, feel free to ask questions

 

[Minister Monardo]

the believing gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation will enter the millennial kingdom, they are not raptured.

Believing Gentiles who are saved during the tribulation are put to death.
There is not a rapture. They are resurrected.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4

Is there a resurrection that precedes the sheep and goat judgment?
Does this place us at the point of "immediately after the tribulation"?
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon
will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather
together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Finally, is "the gathering together of His elect" a rapture, a resurrection, or something else?

 

[Guojing]

Believing Gentiles who are saved during the tribulation are put to death.
There is not a rapture. They are resurrected.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4

Is there a resurrection that precedes the sheep and goat judgment?
Does this place us at the point of "immediately after the tribulation"?
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon
will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather
together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Finally, is "the gathering together of His elect" a rapture, a resurrection, or something else?

The word rapture is a term that only applies to the body of Christ so the answer to your last question is no, they are not raptured

As to how many resurrections are there during the tribulation, I believe if a gentile who died during the trib, he will only be resurrected at the great white throne judgement at the end.

But I am fine if it ends up they are resurrected before that, during the sheep and goat judgement at Matthew 24

 

[Minister Monardo]

The word rapture is a term that only applies to the body of Christ so the answer to your last question is no, they are not raptured

That doesn't answer the question.

Finally, is "the gathering together of His elect" a rapture, a resurrection, or something else?

Should I assume something else is your answer/no answer?
How are you defining 'the elect' here in Matthew 24:31?
Is there a reply for this?

Is there a resurrection that precedes the sheep and goat judgment?
Does this place us at the point of "immediately after the tribulation"?
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon
will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather
together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As to how many resurrections are there during the tribulation, I believe if a gentile who died during the trib, he will only be resurrected at the great white throne judgement at the end.

Is that your response to this, and if so, how are you not "caught up" in a contradiction.

Believing Gentiles who are saved during the tribulation are put to death.
There is not a rapture. They are resurrected.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4

But I am fine if it ends up they are resurrected before that, during the sheep and goat judgement at Matthew 24

No judgment without a resurrection.