Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[tdidymas]

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

This statement of yours seems to negate everything you said before. Is the marriage supper before or after the first resurrection?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Yes there will be saints during the tribulation period because multitudes come to Christ as Saviour during that time.
That however does not refute that the Church (Bride) will be removed before God's divine judgment comes upon a rebellious and rejecting world.

Rev. 20:4-5 says that those who were beheaded (during the trib) will be raised to life, that this is the first resurrection. How do you reconcile this verse with your idea that some will be resurrected prior to the first resurrection?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Yes there are saints during the tribultation period but it is certainly not the church. God has promised to turn his attention to Israel after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

In Rev. 20:4-5, we read of those beheaded being raised, and this is called the "first resurrection." How can it be the "first" if there was one before it? Do you deny that the beheadings were done during the great tribulation?

and:

Do you understand that God is going to turn His attention to his ELECT?

Are you not His elect?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

LOL, you might want to check the context on some of those. Meanwhile.............
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

So then you believe only Israeli people are God's elect, and that gentile Christians are not?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Two people will be doing this or that, one be taken (disappear) and the other left behind

This verse cannot be used to support the pre-trib rapture idea, as the context is talking about being taken to death and destruction in Mat. 24 and Luke 17:

https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/...will-be-left-misinterpreted-bible-passages-8/
What Does 'One Taken, the Other Left' Mean (Matthew 24:40-41)?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

The strongest evidence for the two Rapture view is Matthew 25:10, and Luke 12:36:

The 1st Rapture is a call to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

The 2nd Rapture is a call after a return from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
​

We see a Rapture described by Paul that seems to be more like a surprise. Paul says it is a new mystery revealed. The Rapture we see describe in the Olivet Discourse places it in the Midpoint of the Tribulation. Also, both Raptures have to be before the period of time known as "God's Wrath." For Paul says Christians are not appointed unto wrath.

As for the thread:

I will let you know. It will take a bit of time to put together. So I am not sure on the exact timing on when I can accomplish this.

It looks to me like you are using parables to formulate doctrine, and I think this is a mistake. IMO you are imposing the rapture idea on these texts, which doesn't appear in the immediate context. In Lk. 12, it says to be "like unto" men waiting... and doesn't mean some people are resurrected after the wedding.

In Rev. we learn that those beheaded in the tribulation will be raised in the "first resurrection" and reign (over death) with Christ. How can there be a rapture before the 1st resurrection? The wedding feast is for the whole church, not part of it. Therefore it will include every believer who will ever believe in Christ, since they are the ones in the first resurrection who are not subject to the second death.

I just don't see how you get part of the church in the wedding feast, considering the whole scripture. Your use of these verses aren't correct per the context.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Everyone of these scriptures you posted point towards a Pre-tribulation Rapture, you just seemingly can't interpret them properly, that is why you are confused, going back and forth back and forth

All one has to do is read Rev. 19, see the Bride in Heaven whilst the Beast and his Armies are still on earth and that should clinch it. NOTHING BUT A PRE TRIB Rapture fits the word in reality.

I just read Rev. 19 and I don't get a pre-trib rapture out of it. What I see is an invitation to the marriage supper, not that it is actually happening then. I think you are making presumptions on the text. Further, v.11 begins a separate vision.
TD

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It looks to me like you are using parables to formulate doctrine, and I think this is a mistake. IMO you are imposing the rapture idea on these texts, which doesn't appear in the immediate context. In Lk. 12, it says to be "like unto" men waiting... and doesn't mean some people are resurrected after the wedding.

In Rev. we learn that those beheaded in the tribulation will be raised in the "first resurrection" and reign (over death) with Christ. How can there be a rapture before the 1st resurrection? The wedding feast is for the whole church, not part of it. Therefore it will include every believer who will ever believe in Christ, since they are the ones in the first resurrection who are not subject to the second death.

I just don't see how you get part of the church in the wedding feast, considering the whole scripture. Your use of these verses aren't correct per the context.
TD

These things are spiritual, and they have to be revealed to you by the Spirit. First, I would encourage you to continually ask God about the Rapture according to the Bible. Second, we know that in the Rapture, there will be a trumpet blown.

Joseph had blown the trumpet on the new moon during the feast day through out the land of Egypt just after receiving permission to marry Asenath.

So when Joseph went out through the land of Egypt:

• Genesis 41:45-46 (Joseph had received Asenath to marry)

And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt. And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went through out all the land of Egypt.​

• Psalm 81:3-5 (Joseph had blown the trumpet on feast day within the new moon)

Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob. This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.​

Here we have the receiving of the bride and the blowing of the trumpet on the new moon within the feast of days. A wedding and a trumpet call both being made!

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This verse cannot be used to support the pre-trib rapture idea, as the context is talking about being taken to death and destruction in Mat. 24 and Luke 17:

https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/...will-be-left-misinterpreted-bible-passages-8/
What Does 'One Taken, the Other Left' Mean (Matthew 24:40-41)?
TD

No.

Luke 17:34-37

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."​

• Matthew 24:28

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.​

• Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying

"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.​

Jude 1:14

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Isaiah 31:4 NLT

The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will come down​

Isaiah 26:21b NLT

The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see.
​

Side Note:

The saints are eagles.

"But those who wait for the Lord [who expect, look for, and hope in Him] shall change and renew their strength and power; they shall lift their wings and mount up [close to God] as eagles [mount up to the sun]; they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint or become tired." (Isaiah 40:31) (AMPC).

They will eat the carcasses of the enemies of God (not literally but metaphorically in the fact that they will gain victory over them through Christ). This is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[tdidymas]

These things are spiritual, and they have to be revealed to you by the Spirit. First, I would encourage you to continually ask God about the Rapture according to the Bible. Second, we know that in the Rapture, there will be a trumpet blown.

Joseph had blown the trumpet on the new moon during the feast day through out the land of Egypt just after receiving permission to marry Asenath.

So when Joseph went out through the land of Egypt:

• Genesis 41:45-46 (Joseph had received Asenath to marry)

And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt. And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went through out all the land of Egypt.​

• Psalm 81:3-5 (Joseph had blown the trumpet on feast day within the new moon)

Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob. This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.​

Here we have the receiving of the bride and the blowing of the trumpet on the new moon within the feast of days. A wedding and a trumpet call both being made!

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It looks to me like you're a king at using scripture out of context. It makes me not want to listen to anything you say. The Holy Spirit did not reveal that to you, since He does not abuse His own word like that.
TD

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Rev. 20:4-5 says that those who were beheaded (during the trib) will be raised to life, that this is the first resurrection. How do you reconcile this verse with your idea that some will be resurrected prior to the first resurrection?
TD

The first resurrection represents the resurrection to life not numerically first.
The resurrection of the just does not happened at the same time.

 

[BABerean2]

You should read the whole verse of 2 Pet. 3:10: "The day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar..."

The thief analogy is talking about the approach of the day of the Lord, not the day itself. In every scripture that gives this analogy, it is like the thief who comes "when you are least expecting him." But if you think the analogy tells a whole story, that the day of the Lord comes and goes without the world knowing it, then your idea of the analogy doesn't fit the context of those passages. Every pretribber needs to study this carefully, and come to the same conclusion that these verses, and thus this analogy, does not support the "secret rapture" idea (that is, secret from the world's viewpoint, which is the image that the "Left Behind" series gives us).
TD

I would also read the following passage.

It describes the event, in my humble opinion.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

 

[tdidymas]

No.

Luke 17:34-37

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."​

• Matthew 24:28

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.​

• Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying

"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.​

Jude 1:14

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Isaiah 31:4 NLT

The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will come down​

Isaiah 26:21b NLT

The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see.
​

Side Note:

The saints are eagles.

"But those who wait for the Lord [who expect, look for, and hope in Him] shall change and renew their strength and power; they shall lift their wings and mount up [close to God] as eagles [mount up to the sun]; they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint or become tired." (Isaiah 40:31) (AMPC).

They will eat the carcasses of the enemies of God (not literally but metaphorically in the fact that they will gain victory over them through Christ). This is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I'm not going to respond to your abuse of scripture.
TD

 

[BABerean2]

The resurrection of the just does not happened at the same time.

What did Jesus say?

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


The timing is found below.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[tdidymas]

Simple math. If ALL believers are Raptured that leaves...(at least for the moment in time) NONE left!

The new believers which will include Israel (or what's left of it one day). So, all the new believers are added after the Rapture.

How many resurrections do you think there will be, and do you have specific scripture to support it (other than your opinions)?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

What did Jesus say?

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

.

This seems to speak of one resurrection, but how do you reconcile Rev. 20:4-5 that speaks of a "first resurrection" and a 2nd one after the 1000 years?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

The first resurrection represents the resurrection to life not numerically first.
The resurrection of the just does not happened at the same time.

Where do you get your idea that the resurrection to life is not the same as resurrection of the just? I'd like to see where scripture supports this idea, other than your opinion?
TD

 

[BABerean2]

This seems to speak of one resurrection, but how do you reconcile Rev. 20:4-5 that speaks of a "first resurrection" and a 2nd one after the 1000 years?
TD

The following is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5.
It is the spiritual resurrection from the dead.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The second resurrection found in the passage is in John 5:27-30.

.

 

[tdidymas]

I would also read the following passage.

It describes the event, in my humble opinion.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

Not sure what your point is, I don't see my question answered. It looks to me like it is speaking of Jesus coming "as a thief" at His 2nd coming, in which the world as it is now will be destroyed. Doesn't look like a pre-trib rapture to me. Do I miss your point?
TD

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not going to respond to your abuse of scripture.
TD

What you call abuse of Scripture is simply your lack of understanding. What I said simply refutes your belief. Again, the disciples asked where they are being taken. Jesus did not say it would be to the place that you suggested. Jesus said, "Wherever the body is, in that place will the eagles be gathered together." Eagles are the saints. They will eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains. The angel even calls the fowls of the air (saints) to battle. This is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." (Revelation 19:9).

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." (Revelation 19:7).

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;" (Revelation 19:17).