Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Congratulations, you have put quite a few pieces together. This is where you are off course. Most pretrib believers think that these verses in Matt 24 are when Christ returns to do battle. That is not the case. This event occurs before the day of the Lord. So take the Matt 24 event and put it at the sixth seal.

Matt 24
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is not when Jesus comes to do battle, it is when he is revealed to the world. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The church will be in heaven and they will come with Jesus. All these return back to heaven and that is when the marriage supper occurs. The 7th seal is also opened and the wrath of God begins. Neither group is appointed to wrath.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Thank you. Yes, I see Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 as a reference to the 2nd Rapture that takes place during the Midpoint of the Tribulation.

At the 1st rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

In the 2nd Rapture, in the midpoint of the Tribulation, He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

2 Thessalonians 2 was a chapter is a difficult chapter for me to explain under the Pre-Trib view, until I seen a recent explanation on it from another fellow believer. After his explanation I was able to do a commentary on this chapter.

My 2 Thessalonians 2 Commentary:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him [i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture],
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [i.e. the "Day of the Lord" or the period of judgment against this world] is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [i.e. the time of judgment or wrath upon this world] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [i.e. the body of Christ, the Holy Spirit filled church] who now letteth [i.e. restrains] will let [i.e. be an obstruction], until he [i.e. they, or the body of Christ, the church] be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked [i.e. the wicked one, or the Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"
(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

Note: The word "letteth" or "let" in the Old English can mean to restrain or to be an obstruction. See this Etymology dictionary here.

Also, Christ is a man; So the body of Christ would be masculine; So the Holy Spirit filled church could be in reference to "he" in light of these Scriptural facts.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

Second Coming said:
The dead in Christ rise first.

The dead are not raised until the last day.

There are two different kinds of resurrections.

A spiritual body type resurrection (i.e. we will be like the angels), and a flesh and blood body type resurrection.

Jesus gives a clear distinction between two different resurrections in Matthew 22,

Matthew 22,

29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection [the spiritual body type resurrection i.e. Rapture] they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead [the physical flesh and blood body type resurrection], have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

But we would not know this distinction unless it was more clearly explained to us in a new mystery by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51. Please carefully read 1 Corinthians 15:44 and compare it with 1 Corinthians 15:53, and then read John 1:12 and Luke 20:34-36).

Note: The words in brackets above in blue are my commentary to the text.

May God bless you.

Oldmantook · Dec 13, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I'm only speculating about the part about Israel as well or anyway as well... But not about a rapture that will be mid trib for those ones at that time...

God Bless!

I'm just curious about how you would support a mid trib rapture in light of Rev 16:15-16.

Second Coming · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
There are two different kinds of resurrections.

A spiritual body type resurrection (i.e. we will be like the angels), and a flesh and blood body type resurrection.

Jesus gives a clear distinction between two different resurrections in Matthew 22,

Matthew 22,

29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection [the spiritual body type resurrection i.e. Rapture] they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead [the physical flesh and blood body type resurrection], have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

But we would not know this distinction unless it was more clearly explained to us in a new mystery by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51. Please carefully read 1 Corinthians 15:44 and compare it with 1 Corinthians 15:53, and then read John 1:12 and Luke 20:34-36).

Note: The words in brackets above in blue are my commentary to the text.

May God bless you.

No. There’s only one resurrection. The bodily resurrection on the last day.

Oldmantook · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
At the 1st rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."
In the 2nd Rapture, in the midpoint of the Tribulation, He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

Could it be that your two scripture citations refer to the same event; not two separate events? Both passages refer to a wedding/passage but they do not state that in takes place in heaven. Both passages do not state a time of 7 years or 3-1/2 years but instead refer to the "hour." Therefore we must be careful to not read into the passages more than they indicate

The wedding need not take place in heaven. At the "rapture" which I believe is actually the second coming, Jesus come back and meets his bride "in the air" and they return to earth. It would be like waiting for a house guest to arrive - going outside to meet him and then together returning to the house. Since these passages both mention an hour it is incumbent for us, as much as possible, to determine when that hour might refer to. Jesus promised the faithful in the church of Philadelphia that he would keep them from the "hour of testing" that would come upon the whole world (Rev 3:10). If anyone qualifies for the "rapture" it is the Philadelphian church. If we survey the later chapters of Revelation, we see "hour" referred to in these verses: Rev 14:7,15; Rev 17:12; Rev 18:10,17,19. These verses place the "hour" when Babylon and God's enemies are destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming. Those faithful saints who persevere during the tribulation will be protected at that "hour." At that time, Jesus stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon in Rev 16:15-16. This is when the faithful saints meet the Lord in the air and return to earth. Heaven need not be involved. Matt 16:27 and 25:31 both state that Jesus returns with his angels; not saints. Matt 24:31 states that the angels will gather the elect when he returns. If the elect were already in heaven, there would be no need to gather them. It appears to me that the Matthean and Revelation passages support each other and fit together.

Revealing Times · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The strongest evidence for the two Rapture view is Matthew 25:10, and Luke 12:36:

The 1st Rapture is a call to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The 2nd Rapture is a call after a return from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

We see a Rapture described by Paul that seems to be more like a surprise. Paul says it is a new mystery revealed. The Rapture we see describe in the Olivet Discourse places it in the Midpoint of the Tribulation. Also, both Raptures have to be before the period of time known as "God's Wrath." For Paul says Christians are not appointed unto wrath.

As for the thread:

I will let you know. It will take a bit of time to put together. So I am not sure on the exact timing on when I can accomplish this.

When Jesus returns with the Bride/Angels to defeat the Beast and his minions, there will be no need for a Second Rapture. I understand your thought pattern, but the Rapture is a forcible evacuation to be with the Lord in heaven, but since Jesus is going to rule on earth for 1000 years there is no need for a 2nd Rapture.

The First Resurrection consists of all the dead in Christ and those alive being whisked away to Heaven to marry the Lamb/Jesus. When we return, there will be no need to resurrect the dead until Jesus defeats the Beast. After he defeats the Beast Jesus will raise up the Old Testament Saints and the Martyrs in Christ who died for Jesus during the 70th week/Tribulation period. This is still the FIRST RESURRECTION !! There are Two Resurrections, the Resurrection of those in Christ, even those who were Old Testament Saints believed in the coming SEED's redemption, thus were justified like Abraham by Faith alone.

The Second Resurrection will be after the 1000 year reign, it's the Resurrection of the Wicked. So I do not see a need for a 2nd Rapture, Jesus is going to be on earth, raising them from the dead is all that is needed, thus a 2nd Rapture us not needed.

Rawtheran · Dec 13, 2018

*Light* said:
Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.

God Bless!

I'm sorry but your entire post and efforts to refute Pre-Trib theology is pointless, and an absolute waste of time. Who are you to say that Pre-Trib is wrong? Who am I to call you wrong? Do you want the real answer? No one, I repeat no one has a single clue when the rapture will take place. This is all just a bunch of man-made theories and man's interpretation of the Word of God. Jesus fullfilled all of the scriptures in a way that none of the Jews could've even comprehended I mean imagine it God himself was the Messiah and on top of that he blew away every single Rabbinical interpretation, commentary, and teaching that had been written in the Talmud. God is and will not be restricted to what or how we think he will return. Scripture promises the return of Jesus and that there will be a rapture. This ridiculous theological debate has to come to an end

rockytopva · Dec 13, 2018

Ronald said:
" Now, brothers about times and dates we do not need to writ to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." ... "But you brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." 1 Thes. 5:1,2 & 4
The believers are the only ones watching!

Out of context!!! That scripture means that they are not living bad, so if the Lords coming occurred for them it would not overtake them as a thief.

rockytopva · Dec 13, 2018

We are all commanded to watch and are forbidden to make such predictions. To be post or mid trib is not to watch.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

Revealing Times said:
When Jesus returns with the Bride/Angels to defeat the Beast and his minions, there will be no need for a Second Rapture. I understand your thought pattern, but the Rapture is a forcible evacuation to be with the Lord in heaven, but since Jesus is going to rule on earth for 1000 years there is no need for a 2nd Rapture.

The First Resurrection consists of all the dead in Christ and those alive being whisked away to Heaven to marry the Lamb/Jesus. When we return, there will be no need to resurrect the dead until Jesus defeats the Beast. After he defeats the Beast Jesus will raise up the Old Testament Saints and the Martyrs in Christ who died for Jesus during the 70th week/Tribulation period. This is still the FIRST RESURRECTION !! There are Two Resurrections, the Resurrection of those in Christ, even those who were Old Testament Saints believed in the coming SEED's redemption, thus were justified like Abraham by Faith alone.

The Second Resurrection will be after the 1000 year reign, it's the Resurrection of the Wicked. So I do not see a need for a 2nd Rapture, Jesus is going to be on earth, raising them from the dead is all that is needed, thus a 2nd Rapture us not needed.

What we think is needed is not of any value. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. The Bible strongly suggests that there are two Raptures.

At the 1st rapture (Pre-Trib Rapture), the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

In the 2nd Rapture, in the midpoint of the Tribulation, He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

One Rapture is a call to a marriage, and the second Rapture is a call to inviting those to come in after the wedding ceremony.

The second Rapture takes place in the Midpoint of the Tribulation.
We know believers are not appointed unto Wrath, and the Wrath of God begins with the breaking of the 6th seal (Note: You can see that the "Day of the Lord" (God's Wrath) is described as having a blood moon with the sky going black and the 6th seal having these same two signs). We also see that believers during the midpoint of the Tribulation are told to look up because their redemption draws near (Luke 21:28). The timing here is clearly the midpoint of the Tribulation (Read Luke 21:20-28); For the anti-christ had took control of the Jewish temple (i.e. the Abomination of Desolations). Why are believers told to look up because their redemption draws near in the Midpoint of the Tribulation? Why look up? It's because they are going to be raptured.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 13, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Yes there will be saints during the tribulation period because multitudes come to Christ as Saviour during that time.
That however does not refute that the Church (Bride) will be removed before God's divine judgment comes upon a rebellious and rejecting world.

This statement does not make sense. How can you remove the Bride and leave the "new Christians" behind? All because of timing?? Naw... Pre-trib falls apart when you start to add things up.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Could it be that your two scripture citations refer to the same event; not two separate events? Both passages refer to a wedding/passage but they do not state that in takes place in heaven. Both passages do not state a time of 7 years or 3-1/2 years but instead refer to the "hour." Therefore we must be careful to not read into the passages more than they indicate

The wedding need not take place in heaven. At the "rapture" which I believe is actually the second coming, Jesus come back and meets his bride "in the air" and they return to earth. It would be like waiting for a house guest to arrive - going outside to meet him and then together returning to the house. Since these passages both mention an hour it is incumbent for us, as much as possible, to determine when that hour might refer to. Jesus promised the faithful in the church of Philadelphia that he would keep them from the "hour of testing" that would come upon the whole world (Rev 3:10). If anyone qualifies for the "rapture" it is the Philadelphian church. If we survey the later chapters of Revelation, we see "hour" referred to in these verses: Rev 14:7,15; Rev 17:12; Rev 18:10,17,19. These verses place the "hour" when Babylon and God's enemies are destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming. Those faithful saints who persevere during the tribulation will be protected at that "hour." At that time, Jesus stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon in Rev 16:15-16. This is when the faithful saints meet the Lord in the air and return to earth. Heaven need not be involved. Matt 16:27 and 25:31 both state that Jesus returns with his angels; not saints. Matt 24:31 states that the angels will gather the elect when he returns. If the elect were already in heaven, there would be no need to gather them. It appears to me that the Matthean and Revelation passages support each other and fit together.

No. See Post #90.

dad · Dec 13, 2018

*Light* said:
And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.
...
The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

Yes, they will, the elect of that day. Remember that the witnesses and angels and 144,000 and others in that time have been preaching and there will be a huge (new) harvest.

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

Great. So there are a lot of newly elect that He takes care of when He comes to earth with His saints. That does not mean that He did not come in the clouds to raise up believers before the wrath of God, which we are promised we will not be appointed to.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

Not all the dead. The dead in Christ. The great judgment of the rest of the dead occurs after a thousand years.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

Interesting that the AntiChrist is said to be revealed before the day of Christ. I find it interesting also, that God's spirit will sort of be taken out of the picture in the world in regards to being the force that stops the AC from really coming to power. That would make sense to happen at the same time as the rapture I would think. A time when wickedness is allowed to really fill up it's cup after the believers are taken safely away from the wrath to come. As mentioned there will be (possibly billions) of new believers in that period, that are then, the elect!

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

This could be where you got confused. Jesus does gather believers...both at the Rapture, and at the second coming!

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation.

That seems correct. So therefore the phrase 'the day of Christ' must refer to the day He returns to earth and the mount of Olives.

This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. ..

There is not just one gathering together for believers!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

Right, so who did you think His bride was up there? Everyone but the believers on earth!? Ha. So if I adapt a post Trib view, I must assume He is having the wedding without me? I must also assume He is a liar, and did appoint me to wrath (if I happened to be living in the final phase of human rule on earth)?

dad · Dec 13, 2018

Maria Billingsley said:
This statement does not make sense. How can you remove the Bride and leave the "new Christians" behind? All because of timing?? Naw... Pre-trib falls apart when you start to add things up.

Simple math. If ALL believers are Raptured that leaves...(at least for the moment in time) NONE left!

The new believers which will include Israel (or what's left of it one day). So, all the new believers are added after the Rapture.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 13, 2018

dad said:
Simple math. If ALL believers are Raptured that leaves...(at least for the moment in time) NONE left!

The new believers which will include Israel (or what's left of it one day). So, all the new believers are added after the Rapture.

Please point out in scripture to back this up. As far as I can see, ALL will be resurrected on the last day as stated in Daniel. There is no two part process. Everyone who believes has their name written in the book of life. But alas we will go back and forth on this so on to more important things that grow the Kingdom of God
Blessings

Daniel 12

12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 13, 2018

rockytopva said:
We are all commanded to watch and are forbidden to make such predictions.
To be post or mid trib is not to watch.

Pre, mid, post....watch always.

As Jesus said to the 1st century Jews before 70ad:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:36
About yet that day and hour no one is aware, neither the Messengers of the Heavens nor the Son except the Father only
Mat 26:41
“Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Mark 13
32 And concerning that day or hour no one knows, not even the Messengers, the ones in the Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be looking!<991>, be being vigilant<69> and be praying!
for you do not know when the time is.
38 “Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Luke 21
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 Be ye vigilant!<991>, and be praying! that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen,
and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Revelation 6
16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks "be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb
17 that came the great day of the wrath of Him, and who is able to stand'.
[Hosea 10:8/Malachi 3:2/Luke 23:30]

.

Alithis · Dec 13, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Because I hear the Holy Spirit.............Obedience over Sacrifice.

In other words obedience is more important than anything else, I desire nothing that is not of God. This isn't even a hard question to me, when I see those that can't see this I am kinda left in wonderment to tell you the truth. This is easy and basic Christendom. It's not even a hard study.

Jesus said tofollow him ..to eat..which means partake of his body.. He went to death in his obedience to the father we are to be willing to do so too.
Most who fall for pretrib teaching are hoping to avoid that very thing.

You hear from God and obey..or hear but do not obey. Hearing is not obeying. DOING is obeying.
Are you increasingly forsaking this world and doing the great comission ..have you forsaken sin ..when he comes will you be found doing his will?? There is not 2 gatherings .once jesus comes thats it
Times is over.
Amd most people waiting disobedient to his will are not even going to be saved for he will say to them you wicked and lazy servant.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
What we think is needed is not of any value. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. The Bible strongly suggests that there are two Raptures.
At the 1st rapture (Pre-Trib Rapture), the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:
• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."
In the 2nd Rapture, in the midpoint of the Tribulation, He is returning from a wedding:
• Luke 12:36
One Rapture is a call to a marriage,
and the second Rapture is a call to inviting those to come in after the wedding ceremony.
The second Rapture takes place in the Midpoint of the Tribulation.

Sounds like Dispensationalism theology?

What do you do with the "rapture" of the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11?

It is the same event spoken of in Luke 21:27 and the Harvest shown in Matthew 13:30-39, and said before 70ad........

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting,
having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud
and their enemies behold them.

Everything one needs to know about Dispensationalism but were afraid to ask.....and for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.............

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its most widely known aspect..............
Dispensationalism has enjoyed a large following among conservative Christians, especially in North America.

The view that has predominated in Dispensationalism is known as pre-tribulational rapturism. As noted previously, the older classical version of Dispensationalism held that the first phase of Christ’s return, his ‘coming’ or ‘parousia’, would precede a seven-year period of tribulation, and that the second phase of Christ’s return, his ‘revelation’ or ‘appearing’, would introduce the millennium or one-thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth.

While the raptured church enjoys this period of the marriage feast, a number of events will occur upon the earth. A period of tribulation will begin, the latter half of which will be a period of ‘great tribulation’.

During this period of great tribulation, the elect of the children of Israel and a great number of the Gentiles will be saved.

The first phase, Christ’s coming, is the rapture1 of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, an event that represents Christ’s coming ‘for’ his saints in contrast to his subsequent return (the second phase) or coming ‘with’ the saints.
Though this view has been somewhat modified in more recent Dispensationalism, it remains far and away the most popular view among dispensationalists to this day.
The views known as mid-tribulationism and post-tribulationism, as the terminology suggests, differ as to the timing of the rapture, but have relatively few defenders......................

.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Sounds like Dispensationalism theology?

What do you do with the "rapture" of the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11?

It is the same event spoken of in Luke 21:27 and the Harvest shown in Matthew 13:30-39, and said before 70ad........

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting,
having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud
and their enemies behold them.

Everything one needs to know about Dispensationalism but were afraid to ask.....and for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.............

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its most widely known aspect..............
Dispensationalism has enjoyed a large following among conservative Christians, especially in North America.

The view that has predominated in Dispensationalism is known as pre-tribulational rapturism. As noted previously, the older classical version of Dispensationalism held that the first phase of Christ’s return, his ‘coming’ or ‘parousia’, would precede a seven-year period of tribulation, and that the second phase of Christ’s return, his ‘revelation’ or ‘appearing’, would introduce the millennium or one-thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth.

While the raptured church enjoys this period of the marriage feast, a number of events will occur upon the earth. A period of tribulation will begin, the latter half of which will be a period of ‘great tribulation’.

During this period of great tribulation, the elect of the children of Israel and a great number of the Gentiles will be saved.

The first phase, Christ’s coming, is the rapture1 of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, an event that represents Christ’s coming ‘for’ his saints in contrast to his subsequent return (the second phase) or coming ‘with’ the saints.
Though this view has been somewhat modified in more recent Dispensationalism, it remains far and away the most popular view among dispensationalists to this day.
The views known as mid-tribulationism and post-tribulationism, as the terminology suggests, differ as to the timing of the rapture, but have relatively few defenders......................

.

I have no idea how to counter your argument if I do not know what you believe. So do you believe in Preterism or something else?

dad · Dec 13, 2018

Maria Billingsley said:
Please point out in scripture to back this up. As far as I can see, ALL will be resurrected on the last day as stated in Daniel.

That is after the 1000 years. That does not include those Raptured, or who are saved now. We will already be in heaven with Him.
1 Cor 15:50 Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Re 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, we will not be raised in the great judgment after the thousand years because we were already raised!

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

There is no two part process.

That's what the Jews thought about the messiah coming!

It was a mystery. Paul in the verse I cited shows us another mystery.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt..

There are a few ideas on that this verse refers to. Some think that it refers to believers, how that some will have had such rotten lives in many ways, that they will have some shame even in heaven. Others think it refers probably to that final judgment after the 1000 years. If that is the case then we see we jump a long time mid verse. Just like in the verse Jesus was reading about the messiah coming, and He stopped mid verse...because the rest of the verse had to do with His second coming.
My opinion is the latter.

Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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