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SeventyOne

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John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.

An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.

The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture

doesn't make one iota of sense.

You could pick up an actual research document on the subject, such as the book 'Dispensationalism Before Darby' where it's demonstrated over and over again that the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism were fully formed and known doctrines centuries before Darby was ever born.

Also, 2 Thessalonians 2 is discussing the timing of the 'day of the Lord' (v2) and Paul then describes starting from verse 3 that day will not come until other things take place first. this is a bump that people hit when they aren't familiar with the OT prophets. the 'day of the Lord' is fleshed out in detail in the OT, and is not the rapture, but rather a time of God's wrath poured out on the earth. It makes perfect sense when you aren't redefining the 'day of the Lord' but rather go with the OT descriptions of it that they would have known.

It is interesting the Thessalonians were concerned with their being gathered to Christ when they thought the day of the Lord had already begun. It's almost like they were expecting to be with Christ beforehand.
 
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iamlamad

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John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.

An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.

The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture

doesn't make one iota of sense.
Of course it does not make sense to those who wear very thick preconceived glasses - people who imagine that the rapture and The day of the Lord are synonyms.

Always remember, "THE DAY will start out as a dreadful day of destruction. Notice that at the 6th seal where it begins, there will be a worldwide earthquake to begin it.

Paul had already taught them in his first letter that the rapture would come BEFORE the day and as a trigger for the day.

Then they received a letter or perhaps a prophecy telling them they were already IN the day. And of course they were still on earth. OF COURSE they were upset. Was Paul mistaken? Were they now IN the Day of the Lord? (Remember, a day of destruction).

Paul's argument was only to show them once and for all they were NOT in the day. He told them, when you see the man of sin revelealed, by entering the temple and declaring he is the God of the Jews, THEN, you will know without any doubt, you are IN that day of the Lord.

(John proves this in Revelation by showing us the abomination happens in the middle of the week.)

Paul, however, left a caveat: before the man of sin can be revealed - something else must take place FIRST: the one restraining must be taken out of the way. And in case you missed it, in verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed, meaning, in verse 3a the one or thing restraining MUST HAVE BEEN "taken out of the way."

How anyone can equate a falling away (from what Paul did not specify) with something "taken out of the way" I cannot fathom. Neither can I understand how an evil than can restrain another evil thing: such as a falling away from truth be a restraining force that would prevent the man of sin from being revealed.

On the other hand, "apostasia" as a departing, and several of the first translators put it, makes far better sense: the departing of the church must come FIRST, just as Paul taught in his first letter.

You are certainly going to have to apologize to Mr. Darby.

By the way, did you know that Strong's tells us, for the Greek word "apo" (as in apo-stasia) means, a part of a group removed spatially from the rest of the group? Maybe you should look it up.
 
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iamlamad

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Nothing you stated warrants I'm mistaken at all.
Good point, ItIsFinished! We all can spot the one in error here. John puts the "trib" from the 7th seal to the 7th vial. And Choose Wisely imagines it is before the 6th seal? He is so far from the truth, He left the left field and left the entire ball park!

His theory is in error.

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

His theory WILL BE proven wrong.
 
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iamlamad

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LOL, flatter myself. Okay.
Right off I can tell you don't know the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal as proven by Matt 24.


Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matt 24
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 Cor 15:50-54 occurs at the LAST TRUMP. The last trump is blown on the Feast of trumpets. It is the gathering that you see in Matt 24. Matt 24 is not when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. It is when he gathers his ELECT from the earth and the church from heaven.
Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And yes..........you are mistaken. Surely you noticed that there was a rapture occurring in Matt 24

Matt 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There are no white horses happening in Matt 24. There is a coming of Christ in the clouds and there is a gathering from both the earth and heaven.
Sorry, but it is NOT the gathering of Matthew 24. Paul's rapture gathers from earth. the Matthew 24 gathers from the heavens. The Matthew 24 gathering gathers AFTER the days of GT. The rapture gathering will be before the entire 70th week. You missed it on all points.
 
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jgr

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By the way, did you know that Strong's tells us, for the Greek word "apo" (as in apo-stasia) means, a part of a group removed spatially from the rest of the group? Maybe you should look it up.

Maybe you could explain why every one of the roughly 50 English Bible versions (including Darby and Scofield) translate apostasia as apostasy, falling away, or equivalent.
 
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Choose Wisely

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Sorry, but it is NOT the gathering of Matthew 24. Paul's rapture gathers from earth. the Matthew 24 gathers from the heavens.

No problem. Your excuse doesn't hold up to scripture. Next.............
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


The Matthew 24 gathering gathers AFTER the days of GT.
Exactly. Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.............at the sixth seal, before the wrath of God begins.

The rapture gathering will be before the entire 70th week.
Yes, the pretribulation rapture will occur before the 70th week.........before any seals are opened. However, the gathering before the wrath of God is a prewrath rapture.


You missed it on all points.
Kinda looks like I hit on all points.
 
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Good point, ItIsFinished! We all can spot the one in error here.
Ya just can't use scripture to prove it. Ya need a set of blinders and a good imagination.
John puts the "trib" from the 7th seal to the 7th vial.
No.......that's where you put it.
And Choose Wisely imagines it is before the 6th seal? He is so far from the truth, He left the left field and left the entire ball park!
Oh, no. I don't use imagination, I use scripture to prove my points. Since you don't understand times, time and half a time with regards to the 70th week.........ya just get out the imagination and the sledge hammer.


His theory is in error.

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

His theory WILL BE proven wrong.
Always remember, I can back up all my posts with scripture. Any theory that must use imagination to determine where a coming of Jesus is, is suspect and HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVEN WRONG.
 
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BABerean2

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You could pick up an actual research document on the subject, such as the book 'Dispensationalism Before Darby' where it's demonstrated over and over again that the pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism were fully formed and known doctrines centuries before Darby was ever born.

That is not what I found in my copy of the book.

It mainly centers on the idea that many believed the Jewish people would at some future time return to the middle east, and turn back to God.

The overwhelming majority of these people never believed modern Jews would be saved outside of the Church.
Most of those people never even heard of a pretrib removal of the Church.

Chapter 10 is titled "The Pretribulation-Rapture and Tribulation in Eighteenth-Century England(1689-1772).

It takes writings about the rapture of the Church and infers that all of those refer to a pretrib rapture of the Church.
This is based on very selective quotation.

For example on page 234 we have mention of "a pre-conflagation rapture".

That is what I believe will occur at the Second Coming of Christ, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.

You do not have to take my word for it.
Get a copy of the book and read it for yourself.

.
 
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Exactly the response I was expecting as you have no Biblical answers. You think the second coming, when Christ sets up his kingdom, occurs in Matt 24. But as we saw, there are no white horses to be seen. What we see is a gathering, a rapture. Stick to the shallows if you have no answers.
You obviously are confused and I have been backing what I believe with scripture.
Maybe it is you who should stick to the shallows.
 
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Ya just can't use scripture to prove it. Ya need a set of blinders and a good imagination.

No.......that's where you put it.
Oh, no. I don't use imagination, I use scripture to prove my points. Since you don't understand times, time and half a time with regards to the 70th week.........ya just get out the imagination and the sledge hammer.



Always remember, I can back up all my posts with scripture. Any theory that must use imagination to determine where a coming of Jesus is, is suspect and HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVEN WRONG.
You need to work on you're manners because you are quite rude and have lied several times in this thread regarding other people (such as myself) not providing scripture to back up what they are saying.
I personally provided Scripture regarding the removal of the Church and The Second Coming.
Just because you print words in different colors and use all caps does not make what you say true.
 
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SeventyOne

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That is not what I found in my copy of the book.

It mainly centers on the idea that many believed the Jewish people would at some future time return to the middle east, and turn back to God.

The overwhelming majority of these people never believed modern Jews would be saved outside of the Church.
Most of those people never even heard of a pretrib removal of the Church.

Chapter 10 is titled "The Pretribulation-Rapture and Tribulation in Eighteenth-Century England(1689-1772).

It takes writings about the rapture of the Church and infers that all of those refer to a pretrib rapture of the Church.
This is based on very selective quotation.

For example on page 234 we have mention of "a pre-conflagation rapture".

That is what I believe will occur at the Second Coming of Christ, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.

You do not have to take my word for it.
Get a copy of the book and read it for yourself.

.

I have a copy and I have read it. I stand by what I said.
 
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Choose Wisely

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You need to work on you're manners
Oh gee, did I hurt you feelings Cinderella. I'm certainly sorry about. Maybe you need a refresher. This sound familiar?

"Don't flatter yourself. I didn't quote you as if you believe what I believe."
Still wonder why the person that shoots the 1st spitball is the 1st one that complains about getting an ear ache. BTW I was not really sure why you would quote people with opposing views........in the same post. Making your response somewhat confusing.

because you are quite rude and have lied several times in this thread regarding other people (such as myself) not providing scripture to back up what they are saying.
I personally provided Scripture regarding the removal of the Church and The Second Coming.
Just because you print words in different colors and use all caps does not make what you say true.

Here is what you wrote

I was referring to the removal of the Church (Rapture) 1st. Thessalonians 4:13-18: 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 which is prior to the 7 year tribulation and prior to The Second Coming .
When Christ removes the Church (dead in Christ first) and then all present living believers we meet Him in the clouds. This IS NOT The Second Coming.

In Zechariah 14:3-4 describes an entirely different event where Christ literally stands on the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem. This IS The Second Coming of Christ.

You seem to believe that 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 are the same event. Yeah, that's what most people believe, however, 1 Thes 4 happens at the trump of God and 1 Cor 15 happens at the last trump. Two completely different events. The trump of God is the voice of God and the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah. Contrary to what is commonly taught..........not the same events


1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can you offer any proof that 1 Cor 15 happens before the tribulation?
 
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BABerean2

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I have a copy and I have read it. I stand by what I said.

If you can provide a passage from the book that shows a definite Pretrib teaching, bring it out here and let us see it.

Can you back up what you said?


.
 
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iamlamad

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Maybe you could explain why every one of the roughly 50 English Bible versions (including Darby and Scofield) translate apostasia as apostasy, falling away, or equivalent.
Simple: it is called "follow the leader." And it is plain, they did not understand Paul here in this passage.

Don't take my word for it, go and look in all your translations and answer the question: is the man of sin revealed in verse 3b?
 
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iamlamad

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Oh gee, did I hurt you feelings Cinderella. I'm certainly sorry about. Maybe you need a refresher. This sound familiar?

"Don't flatter yourself. I didn't quote you as if you believe what I believe."
Still wonder why the person that shoots the 1st spitball is the 1st one that complains about getting an ear ache. BTW I was not really sure why you would quote people with opposing views........in the same post. Making your response somewhat confusing.



Here is what you wrote

I was referring to the removal of the Church (Rapture) 1st. Thessalonians 4:13-18: 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 which is prior to the 7 year tribulation and prior to The Second Coming .
When Christ removes the Church (dead in Christ first) and then all present living believers we meet Him in the clouds. This IS NOT The Second Coming.

In Zechariah 14:3-4 describes an entirely different event where Christ literally stands on the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem. This IS The Second Coming of Christ.

You seem to believe that 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 are the same event. Yeah, that's what most people believe, however, 1 Thes 4 happens at the trump of God and 1 Cor 15 happens at the last trump. Two completely different events. The trump of God is the voice of God and the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah. Contrary to what is commonly taught..........not the same events


1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can you offer any proof that 1 Cor 15 happens before the tribulation?
"The trump of God is the voice of God"

Where on earth do you come up with such nonsense? Are you saying now that God cannot sound a trumpet? When it says "trump of God," why not just believe it?

Can you PROVE with scripture that the trump of God in 1 Thes. 4 is NOT "the last trump?" This I have got to see.

"This IS NOT The Second Coming." Yes it is. What it is not is His 3rd coming as shown in Rev. 19. The rapture between the 5th and 6th seals will be His 2nd coming.

In Zechariah 14:3-4 describes an entirely different event where Christ literally stands on the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem. This IS The Second Coming of Christ.

No, this will be His THIRD (3rd) coming.
1. He came once.
2. He will come at the last trumpet at the feast of trumpets FOR us.
3. He will come again, as in Rev. 19 WITH His church. 3rd coming.

You seem to believe that 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 are the same event.

Yes, almost everyone does because they ARE the same event.

Can you offer any proof that 1 Cor 15 happens before the tribulation?
Can you prove it doesn't?
Your "proof" that a trump is really God's voice is no proof at all.

You amaze me. You call this making wise choices?
 
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jgr

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Simple: it is called "follow the leader." And it is plain, they did not understand Paul here in this passage.

Don't take my word for it, go and look in all your translations and answer the question: is the man of sin revealed in verse 3b?

I contacted the Lockman Foundation, translators of the acclaimed NASB version, and provided them with the link to an article by Thomas Ice attempting to defend apostasia as rapture. They didn't follow any leader in dissecting it:

"The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3."


Translators who "follow the leader" don't qualify as translators.
 
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Oh gee, did I hurt you feelings Cinderella. I'm certainly sorry about. Maybe you need a refresher. This sound familiar?

"Don't flatter yourself. I didn't quote you as if you believe what I believe."
Still wonder why the person that shoots the 1st spitball is the 1st one that complains about getting an ear ache. BTW I was not really sure why you would quote people with opposing views........in the same post. Making your response somewhat confusing.



Here is what you wrote

I was referring to the removal of the Church (Rapture) 1st. Thessalonians 4:13-18: 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 which is prior to the 7 year tribulation and prior to The Second Coming .
When Christ removes the Church (dead in Christ first) and then all present living believers we meet Him in the clouds. This IS NOT The Second Coming.

In Zechariah 14:3-4 describes an entirely different event where Christ literally stands on the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem. This IS The Second Coming of Christ.

You seem to believe that 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 are the same event. Yeah, that's what most people believe, however, 1 Thes 4 happens at the trump of God and 1 Cor 15 happens at the last trump. Two completely different events. The trump of God is the voice of God and the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah. Contrary to what is commonly taught..........not the same events


1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can you offer any proof that 1 Cor 15 happens before the tribulation?
Wow. You are completely lame and obnoxious.
Definitely not of God.
I'm done with you and you're childish behaviour.
You should choose you're words wisely.
 
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Choose Wisely

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Wow. You are completely lame and obnoxious.
Definitely not of God.
I'm done with you and you're childish behaviour.
You should choose you're words wisely.
Translation..........Wow, I realize I am overmatched and have no answers. I need to get out of this situation fast. I sure like throwing rocks but now that I've been hit I'm going start pointing fingers and crying like a baby. Someday maybe I'll put on my big boy pants and play nice.
 
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"The trump of God is the voice of God"
Where on earth do you come up with such nonsense?
The Bible.

Are you saying now that God cannot sound a trumpet? When it says "trump of God," why not just believe it?
Did I say that God cannot sound a trumpet? Since the Bible explains the Bible, when it says the trump of God we can know that it means the voice of God.

Rev 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Exo 19
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Still nonsense, or is it making sense now?

Can you PROVE with scripture that the trump of God in 1 Thes. 4 is NOT "the last trump?" This I have got to see.
Well, I can prove the trump of God is the voice of God. (See above) And if you ask a Rabbi what the last trump is, I'm pretty sure he will know what it is and tell you it's blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Like I said the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and the trump of God is the voice of God. 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 describe different events.
 
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Translation..........Wow, I realize I am overmatched and have no answers. I need to get out of this situation fast. I sure like throwing rocks but now that I've been hit I'm going start pointing fingers and crying like a baby. Someday maybe I'll put on my big boy pants and play nice.
Like I said , total childish behaviour.
You haven't a clue.
 
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