Pre tribulation is awful grammar

[Billy Evmur]

John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.

An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.

The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture

doesn't make one iota of sense.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

He didn't create the pre-trib doctrine.
It was believed and taught by many hundreds of years before him.
Bottom line, the Church will be removed before the 7 year tribulation.
At what point isn't exactly clear, but before.
It could be in the next scintilla of a second .
The Groom will remove the Bride before divine judgment comes upon this wicked world .

 

[Billy Evmur]

He didn't create the pre-trib doctrine.
It was believed and taught by many hundreds of years before him.
Bottom line, the Church will be removed before the 7 year tribulation.
At what point isn't exactly clear, but before.
It could be in the next scintilla of a second .
The Groom will remove the Bride before divine judgment comes upon this wicked world .

Sure he did, the whole church from ancient times believed the church would go through the great tribulation or persecution.

The man of sin, the son of perdition is the author of the great tribulation or persecution.

"he will oppose and exalt himself above everything called god or is worshipped." does that sound like troublation to you?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Sure he did, the whole church from ancient times believed the church would go through the great tribulation or persecution.

The man of sin, the son of perdition is the author of the great tribulation or persecution.

"he will oppose and exalt himself above everything called god or is worshipped." does that sound like troublation to you?

That is completely false.
And you do not speak for the whole Church.
And the early Church muchless the whole didn't all teach that we would go through the tribulation, some did , but not all.
That being said, those who receive Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation will go through it and some will be martyrs.

 

[Billy Evmur]

That is completely false.
And you do not speak for the whole Church.
And the early Church muchless the whole didn't all teach that we would go through the tribulation, some did , but not all.
That being said, those who receive Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation will go through it and some will be martyrs.

Jesus was post trib "after the tribulation of those days.....they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven""

But Darby's rendition of 2.Thess.2 is awful grammar. Darby is the father of pretrib doctrine.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Jesus was post trib "after the tribulation of those days.....they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven""

But Darby's rendition of 2.Thess.2 is awful grammar. Darby is the father of pretrib doctrine.

Darby is not the father of the pre-trib doctrine whatsoever.
And the post-trib that you speak of is The Second Coming of Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
The removal of the Church is a separate event that happens before the 7 year tribulation.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Darby is not the father of the pre-trib doctrine whatsoever.
And the post-trib that you speak of is The Second Coming of Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
The removal of the Church is a separate event that happens before the 7 year tribulation.

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...He will send out His angels to gather His elect"

This is when He comes in the clouds with trumpets and angels with great power and glory, as in Luke so in 2.Thess.2 as in John "behold He comes in the clouds and every eye shall see Him..."

What coming of Christ are YOU talking about...there is no other in scripture...Darby made it up.

 

[dysert]

There is no one so blind as he who chooses not to see.

 

[Douggg]

John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.

An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.

The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture

doesn't make one iota of sense.

Well, the falling away is not referring to being the rapture, but a departure from believing that Jesus is the messiah and Christianity.

The biggest problem I see with the Pre-trib rapture label is that what is really meant is Pre-70th week. I don't take issue with that the rapture could happen before the 70th week begins, but I don't agree that it has to.

Based on 1Thessalonians5, combined with 2Thessalonians2:4, the rapture has to take place before the Day of the Lord years begin - which will be triggered by the Antichrist, King of Israel (illegitimate) at the time, suddenly and unexpectedly going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

What we don't know, and cannot know, is how far before that event, the rapture takes place.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...He will send out His angels to gather His elect"

Isa 45
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

This is when He comes in the clouds with trumpets and angels with great power and glory, as in Luke so in 2.Thess.2 as in John "behold He comes in the clouds and every eye shall see Him..."

Jesus is not coming for the church as they are already in heaven. They were taken in the SECRET pretribulation rapture. Jesus is coming for His ELECT...........the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. (CUE BABEREAN2)

What coming of Christ are YOU talking about...there is no other in scripture...Darby made it up.

I notice that Luke doesn't tell us..........The days will come when you shall desire to see the coming of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.
Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Isa 45
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.


Jesus is not coming for the church as they are already in heaven. They were taken in the SECRET pretribulation rapture. Jesus is coming for His ELECT...........the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. (CUE BABAREAN2)


I notice that Luke doesn't tell us..........The days will come when you shall desire to see the coming of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.
Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...He will send out His angels to gather His elect"

This is when He comes in the clouds with trumpets and angels with great power and glory, as in Luke so in 2.Thess.2 as in John "behold He comes in the clouds and every eye shall see Him..."

What coming of Christ are YOU talking about...there is no other in scripture...Darby made it up.

I was referring to the removal of the Church (Rapture) 1st. Thessalonians 4:13-18: 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 which is prior to the 7 year tribulation and prior to The Second Coming .
When Christ removes the Church (dead in Christ first) and then all present living believers we meet Him in the clouds. This IS NOT The Second Coming.

In Zechariah 14:3-4 describes an entirely different event where Christ literally stands on the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem. This IS The Second Coming of Christ.

Also once again Darby DID NOT create/invent the rapture doctrine. It is Scriptural and has been taught hundreds of years before Darby and the 1,800's.
That is common knowledge regarding Church history.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I was referring to the removal of the Church (Rapture) 1st. Thessalonians 4:13-18: 1st. Corinthians 15:50-54 which is prior to the 7 year tribulation and prior to The Second Coming .
When Christ removes the Church (dead in Christ first) and then all present living believers we meet Him in the clouds. This IS NOT The Second Coming.

In Zechariah 14:3-4 describes an entirely different event where Christ literally stands on the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem. This IS The Second Coming of Christ.

Also once again Darby DID NOT create/invent the rapture doctrine. It is Scriptural and has been taught hundreds of years before Darby and the 1,800's.
That is common knowledge regarding Church history.

Not quite sure why you are quoting my post as I believe in a pretribulation rapture. However, if you think that Matt 24 is when Jesus comes to set up his kingdom, you are mistaken.
Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is not the second coming. Additionally 1 Cor 15:50-54 is not referring to the rapture of the church.

 

[AACJ]

John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.

An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.

The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture

doesn't make one iota of sense.

Hi, BIlly

I have a digital copy of an 8th century document that is believed to be a copy of a 3rd century document. That document contains pre-trib instruction, or maybe I should say it is pre-trib in nature.

As far as I know, the document is legit.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Not quite sure why you are quoting my post as I believe in a pretribulation rapture. However, if you think that Matt 24 is when Jesus comes to set up his kingdom, you are mistaken.
Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is not the second coming. Additionally 1 Cor 15:50-54 is not referring to the rapture of the church.

Don't flatter yourself. I didn't quote you as if you believe what I believe .
1st Corinthians 15:50-54 is referring to the removal of the Church.
The Second Coming is a different event that occurs at the end of the tribulation.
I'm not mistaken at all.

 

[AACJ]

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...He will send out His angels to gather His elect"

This is when He comes in the clouds with trumpets and angels with great power and glory, as in Luke so in 2.Thess.2 as in John "behold He comes in the clouds and every eye shall see Him..."

What coming of Christ are YOU talking about...there is no other in scripture...Darby made it up.

From what I can tell, based on biblical usage, the underlying Greek for they shall gather together (Mat 24:31) means something different than the underlying Greek for the catching up mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:17.

Two separate events.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Don't flatter yourself. I didn't quote you as if you believe what I believe .
1st Corinthians 15:50-54 is referring to the removal of the Church.
The Second Coming is a different event that occurs at the end of the tribulation.
I'm not mistaken at all.

LOL, flatter myself. Okay.
Right off I can tell you don't know the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal as proven by Matt 24.

Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matt 24
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 Cor 15:50-54 occurs at the LAST TRUMP. The last trump is blown on the Feast of trumpets. It is the gathering that you see in Matt 24. Matt 24 is not when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. It is when he gathers his ELECT from the earth and the church from heaven.
Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And yes..........you are mistaken. Surely you noticed that there was a rapture occurring in Matt 24

Matt 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There are no white horses happening in Matt 24. There is a coming of Christ in the clouds and there is a gathering from both the earth and heaven.

 

[BABerean2]

Also once again Darby DID NOT create/invent the rapture doctrine. It is Scriptural and has been taught hundreds of years before Darby and the 1,800's.
That is common knowledge regarding Church history.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty"
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

LOL, flatter myself. Okay.
Right off I can tell you don't know the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal as proven by Matt 24.

Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matt 24
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 Cor 15:50-54 occurs at the LAST TRUMP. The last trump is blown on the Feast of trumpets. It is the gathering that you see in Matt 24. Matt 24 is not when Christ returns to set up His kingdom. It is when he gathers his ELECT from the earth and the church from heaven.
Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And yes..........you are mistaken. Surely you noticed that there was a rapture occurring in Matt 24

Matt 24
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

There are no white horses happening in Matt 24. There is a coming of Christ in the clouds and there is a gathering from both the earth and heaven.

Nothing you stated warrants I'm mistaken at all.

 

[BABerean2]

Nothing you stated warrants I'm mistaken at all.

What God said below warrants that you are mistaken...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You said, vs. God said...

.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Nothing you stated warrants I'm mistaken at all.

Exactly the response I was expecting as you have no Biblical answers. You think the second coming, when Christ sets up his kingdom, occurs in Matt 24. But as we saw, there are no white horses to be seen. What we see is a gathering, a rapture. Stick to the shallows if you have no answers.