pre-trib

[timlamb]

Yes.
All through the discourse , Jesus is calling them to endurance, in face of opposition- Jesus said, they will hand you over to tribulation.-
-your own mother, brother sister will hand you over.

AND AGAIN, " when you come before kings for my name sake, dont worry.

If they persucuted me ,they will persecute my followers.

It happened almost immediately, they were killed for their faith and their testimony of Jesus ,and it will continue , magnifying itself 10 fold in the end. ( explain to me how they could preach pre -trib ,when what happened to them was the exact opposite.)

Then Jesus says, after all this tribulation then the sign of the son of man will appear-in the sky, and so Jesus returns as he promised.

Remember that the Gospel has to be preached to every language/people, before he comes.
If that cant be done in todays world with our knowledge of the planet, then it never will be.
Jesus is just about to make his glorious appearing.

Yes Jeff, the church has been persecuted all through time, but when Jesus speaks of enduring the Great Tribulation He is speaking to the Jews and this is something that they will be reminded of after the rapture.

 

[timlamb]

since this is true ... the church is in heaven during the great tribulation

thus making 1 cor 11:32 correct

Amen bro

 

[Mighty Mouse]

when Jesus speaks of enduring the Great Tribulation He is speaking to the Jews

I seem to remember the apostle Sha'ul mentioning how Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Jewish nation, not the other way around. I think one could make the case that Yahuahshua was speaking to the Jews, and simultaneously, to the "grafted Gentile branch" as well.

It just seems to me that one must do a lot more scriptural "tap-dancing" to arrive at a pre-trib rapture than to simply take the clear path that suggests a post-trib ascension (at the last trumpet).

Regardless, isn't it more prudent to prepare as though we will go through the tribulation rather than hope for a divine evacuation?

Additionally, why should we, the spoiled church of America, be exempt from severe trials, tribulations and purification when every other generation has experienced these things with no rapture to pull them out of harm's way? Our Savior said because He was persecuted, so we would be. Many if not most of today's suffering third world Christians would have to find the notion of a pre-trib rapture absurd.

It just seems logical that our Creator would want a purified church, not a lukewarm compromised one. He has the power to protect that which is truly His -- even in the face of Antichrist, does He not? This, of course, suggests that there could be many of us who will need to be purified by losing our lives during the tribulation if we are to be saved.

My apologies for rambling a bit. Peace to you all.

Shalom uv'racha B'Mashiach Yahuahshua

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I seem to remember the apostle Sha'ul mentioning how Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Jewish nation, not the other way around. I think one could make the case that Yahuahshua was speaking to the Jews, and simultaneously, to the "grafted Gentile branch" as well.

It just seems to me that one must do a lot more scriptural "tap-dancing" to arrive at a pre-trib rapture than to simply take the clear path that suggests a post-trib ascension (at the last trumpet).

Regardless, isn't it more prudent to prepare as though we will go through the tribulation rather than hope for a divine evacuation?

Additionally, why should we, the spoiled church of America, be exempt from severe trials, tribulations and purification when every other generation has experienced these things with no rapture to pull them out of harm's way? Our Savior said because He was persecuted, so we would be. Many if not most of today's suffering third world Christians would have to find the notion of a pre-trib rapture absurd.

It just seems logical that our Creator would want a purified church, not a lukewarm compromised one. He has the power to protect that which is truly His -- even in the face of Antichrist, does He not? This, of course, suggests that there could be many of us who will need to be purified by losing our lives during the tribulation if we are to be saved.

My apologies for rambling a bit. Peace to you all.

Shalom uv'racha B'Mashiach Yahuahshua

I answered this same post by you on another thread -I think.

You are playing God to decide what tribulation and persecution for any believer is and how it is applied to their persons.
In all nations at all times in all conditions those called by the LORD are tried ; whether in wealth or in poverty, old or young, free or slaves, married or single, well in body or ill in body; all are tried; and the death rate is still one per person -as the norm.

The Great tribulation is not for the Church of God to go through -professors not possessors will go through it who are alive -or be killed in it; but the LORD scourges every son He receives for their own good, and His chastening is not grievous and is tailored to produce fruit and not to destroy his sons.

Stop playing God and trying to make as if he hasn't tried a person if they aren't in a certain place at a certain time in a certain way.

In this nation we are spiritually assaulted daily, and vexed, as Lot was, by the daily bombardment of spiritual wickedness before us without ceasing which is taking captive many of our sons and dauughters and brethren.

For you to claim that physical torment for His Church as in some other nations is neccessary for His Church to be made pure is pure ignorance of what conflict and warfare is about.

Many are sifted as wheat by conditions of health, relationships through marraige or work or family and many fall -but many are strengthened and strengthen their brethren and encourage.

And BTW: the Church is grafted into Israel, not into the Jewish nation. Those of the Jewish nation who are natural branches [born into the promise of the Spirit as sons of Abraham through Isaac] who are cut off are no longer of Israel, of the Living Spirit come in New Man flesh of the second human being creation as the Kinsman/Redeemer of Adamkind.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Why is it that when God says He will keep you from the hour of trial that is to come upon the world, so many believe that he means to take you away from. The truth is that Israel was there during the hour of trial and God kept them by the blood of the lamb. Your belief that He will rapture the church away does not make it so. He is God and can keep you even in the most trying times and even through the fire. Can I get an Amen on that?

Hismessenger

No.

 

[Hismessenger]

Then why is it that in Rev, 2:10 he says;

You will have tribulation for ten days to the church at Smyrna. Not only does Christ say this but then He goes on to say, Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Who are they that are beheaded for their testimony during the tribulation. If the church is gone, how will they hear without a preacher. God has said that the hour of testing would come upon ALL the world. Both saint and sinner are included in this statement. That is the purpose of the tribulation on the church. Why if the master had to suffer and die for the will of God are you so afraid and how do consider yourself above those who died in Christ in times past. It is one body both old and new testament. All that I have said is verifiable through the scripture and is not conjecture or inuendo, or supposition. How do you explain these scripture.

Hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Another nail in the pretrib coffin. Matt 24:21

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved: BUT FOR THE ELECTS SAKE THOSE DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED.

If the church is gone, who are these elect that the days are shortened for.

Then He goes on to say that many false Christs shall appear, to proclaim the false rapture as written.

Hismessenger

 

[lecoop]

Then why is it that in Rev, 2:10 he says;

You will have tribulation for ten days to the church at Smyrna. Not only does Christ say this but then He goes on to say, Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Who are they that are beheaded for their testimony during the tribulation. If the church is gone, how will they hear without a preacher. God has said that the hour of testing would come upon ALL the world. Both saint and sinner are included in this statement. That is the purpose of the tribulation on the church. Why if the master had to suffer and die for the will of God are you so afraid and how do consider yourself above those who died in Christ in times past. It is one body both old and new testament. All that I have said is verifiable through the scripture and is not conjecture or inuendo, or supposition. How do you explain these scripture.

Hismessenger

When during the 70th week are people going to be beheaded? Of course, it will be after the abomination event at the midpoint. Hmmm. Who did Jesus tell to flee when they saw this abomination event? Of course, those living in Judea! They will flee into the wilderness. We see two references to this in Rev. chapter 12. So who are beheaded? First, those in Judea that did not flee! Second, those that refuse the mark of the beast. This in no way disagrees with a pre-trib rapture. There will be plenty down here on earth that will refuse the mark, and lose their head. However, it would NOT be the church, for John saw them in heaven, in chapter 7, before the 70th week even started.

There is no, "purpose of the tribulation on the church." The church will be raptured before the 70th week even starts, and about 3 1/2 years before the abomination event. However, many will turn to Christ after the rapture, so there will be Christians here to see the abomination. however, they also will probably be raptured to be in heaven for the wedding.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Another nail in the pretrib coffin. Matt 24:21

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved: BUT FOR THE ELECTS SAKE THOSE DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED.

If the church is gone, who are these elect that the days are shortened for.

Then He goes on to say that many false Christs shall appear, to proclaim the false rapture as written.

Hismessenger

Who indeed? Of course for the Jews that will go through this time of the greatest tribulation ever. It will be like a Jew in Germany in 1942, but it will be like this all over the world! There will be few places to hide, if one refuses the mark of the beast. The Jews are still looking for their Christ! They missed Him the first time, but will acknowledge Him when HE comes. Therefore, this idea in no way is a nail in the coffin of the pre-trib rapture. The elect are the Jews, plus any other people that have turned to God and refused the mark.

Coop

 

[Hismessenger]

That all fine well and good what you have said but then define for us the ELECT. There are enough holes in the doctrine that are denied for the purpose of being deceived as the word has said. But you don't have to be deceived. No where in the bible where tribulation and affliction has come upon the earth has the Elect been removed. Israel went through the passover. Noah went through the flood. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo went through the fire. Daniel went into the Lions den. How is it that you see the church as needing to be removed. The word says that God is using the tribulation as a time of testing. Even as it was in Egypt, on the flood waters, in the fire and in the Lions den. Then our main example is Christ Himself, who suffered and died for you and you think that you should escape, home free without any penalty for your sins. The word says that you will pay for your transgressions even when you repent. David is another prime example of the truth of God.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

That all fine well and good what you have said but then define for us the ELECT.

There are at least 144,000 of them.

There are enough holes in the doctrine that are denied for the purpose of being deceived as the word has said. But you don't have to be deceived. No where in the bible where tribulation and affliction has come upon the earth has the Elect been removed. Israel went through the passover. Noah went through the flood. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo went through the fire. Daniel went into the Lions den.

This tribulation will make those look like a bad day at the office.

How is it that you see the church as needing to be removed.

Because scripture says the bride will be spared the out pouring of wrath in those days.

The word says that God is using the tribulation as a time of testing.

Where?

Even as it was in Egypt, on the flood waters, in the fire and in the Lions den. Then our main example is Christ Himself, who suffered and died for you and you think that you should escape, home free without any penalty for your sins.

Jesus paid for my sin, that is grace. Was His grace not sufficiant that I should pay again?

The word says that you will pay for your transgressions even when you repent.

The Word I read says Christ paid; Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

thank you Jesus!!!

 

[timlamb]

It just seems to me that one must do a lot more scriptural "tap-dancing" to arrive at a pre-trib rapture than to simply take the clear path that suggests a post-trib ascension (at the last trumpet).

I think it is pretty clear there is both. But there isn't much to say about the twinkling of an eye; and there is plenty to say about the tribulation and second comming and judgement, lots going on during those times.

Regardless, isn't it more prudent to prepare as though we will go through the tribulation rather than hope for a divine evacuation?

of course we should behave like we well be here for our lives. If I sit on my hands and wait for the rapture, I most might not get raptured. The rapture is not for the luke warm.

Additionally, why should we, the spoiled church of America, be exempt from severe trials, tribulations and purification when every other generation has experienced these things with no rapture to pull them out of harm's way? Our Savior said because He was persecuted, so we would be. Many if not most of today's suffering third world Christians would have to find the notion of a pre-trib rapture absurd.

No, I think they would find it a blessing, there is an end to the suffering. Our faith must be strong enough to endure the tribulation. The rapture is not for the weak but for the Bride, the committed.

It just seems logical that our Creator would want a purified church, not a lukewarm compromised one. He has the power to protect that which is truly His -- even in the face of Antichrist, does He not? This, of course, suggests that there could be many of us who will need to be purified by losing our lives during the tribulation if we are to be saved.

We are purified by the blood shed on the cross, not by a tribulation. How we loose our lives does not make us pure. How you die means little if you have not lived for Christ.

My apologies for rambling a bit. Peace to you all.

Shalom uv'racha B'Mashiach Yahuahshua

Peace

 

[jeffweeder]

25 "There will be signs[16][Or attesting miracles ] in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world[17][Lit inhabited earth ]; for the powers of the[18][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Why say this if we are raptured before the 2nd coming.
You do believe this is the 2nd coming he is refering to?





36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Why pray for strength, if we escape by a rapture?
We pray for strength because we have to stand Tim.

We escape God's wrath on a Christ rejecting , unbelieving world-in the twinkling of an eye , at the last trump on the last day.
If you persist in wanting to be gathered first, then you will find yourself in a place you do not want to be.

24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may[14][Lit was compared to ] be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares[15][Or darnel, a weed resembling wheat] among the wheat, and went away.
26 "But when the wheat[16][Lit grass ] sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How[17][Lit From where ] then does it have tares?'
28 "And he said to them, 'An enemy[18][Lit enemy man ] has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take[7][Or serve ] care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[timlamb]

25 "There will be signs[16][Or attesting miracles ] in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world[17][Lit inhabited earth ]; for the powers of the[18][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Why say this if we are raptured before the 2nd coming.
You do believe this is the 2nd coming he is refering to?





36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Why pray for strength, if we escape by a rapture?
We pray for strength because we have to stand Tim.

We escape God's wrath on a Christ rejecting , unbelieving world-in the twinkling of an eye , at the last trump on the last day.
If you persist in wanting to be gathered first, then you will find yourself in a place you do not want to be.



31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take[7][Or serve ] care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You are quoting scripture on the second comming and the judgment. The signs and warnings predict the tribulation and second comming. Being caught at work, asleep, Christians with nonChristians, no warnings or judgement, that is the rapture. The "tares" are judged before the Wheat is housed, in Revelation 20 and 21, Judgment and the new earth and heaven.

 

[jeffweeder]

The "tares" are judged before the Wheat is housed, in Revelation 20 and 21, Judgment and the new earth and heaven.

no, they grow together till the harvest.


Peter gets you looking at Rev 20-21 in 2 Pet 3, in relation to the 2nd coming promise.
-- which all believers at the time were waiting for, and looking for the day of God, in which the heavens would go and the earth would melt,....but the hope was a new heaven and a new earth--- just as dear Paul suggested.
You are expecting something different.

You would write a different letter to Christians if you were Peter.
Peter was confident that the gentile preacher was comunicating the same , in all his letters, regarding these matters.

God is patient NOW, while the gospel is being preached in all the world, but as soon as he appears, the faith ballgame is over.

 

[swamp401]

Does not the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew chapter 13 provide a complete and authoritative conclusion to eschatology, Since Christ himself explains the parable. Noting the sequence of events "gather together first the tares that they may be burnt". It would appear to me that anything else would be dogmatic.

May God Bless

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I seem to remember the apostle Sha'ul mentioning how Gentiles are "grafted in" to the Jewish nation, not the other way around. I think one could make the case that Yahuahshua was speaking to the Jews, and simultaneously, to the "grafted Gentile branch" as well.

In the body of Christ there is either Jew or Gentile ... gal 3:28 all a part of the new man eph 2:15

during the trib there is an extreme different Jewish believers are different than Gentile believers

It just seems to me that one must do a lot more scriptural "tap-dancing" to arrive at a pre-trib rapture

have you done a word study on rewards of the 5 crowns to believers and when do they recieve them

than to simply take the clear path that suggests a post-trib ascension (at the last trumpet).

1 cor 15:23-24 you argue with three different resurrections for believers....

Regardless, isn't it more prudent to prepare as though we will go through the tribulation rather than hope for a divine evacuation?

have wou done a study on judgement and wrath

Additionally, why should we, the spoiled church of America, be exempt from severe trials, tribulations and purification when every other generation has experienced these things with no rapture to pull them out of harm's way?

America is nothing special according to God

Our Savior said because He was persecuted, so we would be. Many if not most of today's suffering third world Christians would have to find the notion of a pre-trib rapture absurd.

God promised tribulation for believers from the world

yet God promised that He would repay them during the Great Tribulation There are elect believers during this time that believe once the Church leaves

It just seems logical that our Creator would want a purified church, not a lukewarm compromised one. He has the power to protect that which is truly His -- even in the face of Antichrist, does He not?

There are two ways to purifiy one self.... #1 roman 6 yet this is a daily moment by moment battle...1john 1:9
#2 1 john 3:2, eph 5:26

This, of course, suggests that there could be many of us who will need to be purified by losing our lives during the tribulation if we are to be saved.

My apologies for rambling a bit. Peace to you all.

Shalom uv'racha B'Mashiach Yahuahshua

the Tribulational saints many will die during this time ... as they are loving the 144,000 virgin Jews who are preaching the Gospel of that time

 

[timlamb]

no, they grow together till the harvest.


Peter gets you looking at Rev 20-21 in 2 Pet 3, in relation to the 2nd coming promise.
-- which all believers at the time were waiting for, and looking for the day of God, in which the heavens would go and the earth would melt,....but the hope was a new heaven and a new earth--- just as dear Paul suggested.
You are expecting something different.

You would write a different letter to Christians if you were Peter.
Peter was confident that the gentile preacher was comunicating the same , in all his letters, regarding these matters.

God is patient NOW, while the gospel is being preached in all the world, but as soon as he appears, the faith ballgame is over.

The rapture is a gleaning of the early friut, the first fruit.

I live in tree fruit country and many varieties are picked for ripeness brefore the final harvest.

Read about the harvest in Revelation 14:14-20. The grapes are harvested and thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath. (the tares)

 

[Hismessenger]

It seems that there is a denial of what the word says. When it says gather the tares first, this is the last day and it occurs for the judgement. There are no first fruit taken before them. And the Elect is for most of the references shown in the word, the church. There is a whole lot of tap dancing going on to hide the sour notes of unbelief. The word says immediately after the tribulation of those days He comes and then the gathering occurs. Fisrt the tares, then the wheat

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

It seems that there is a denial of what the word says. When it says gather the tares first, this is the last day and it occurs for the judgement. There are no first fruit taken before them. And the Elect is for most of the references shown in the word, the church. There is a whole lot of tap dancing going on to hide the sour notes of unbelief. The word says immediately after the tribulation of those days He comes and then the gathering occurs. Fisrt the tares, then the wheat

Hismessenger

which part of 1 cor 15:23-24 does this happen