pre-trib

[timlamb]

Read Revelation 2:10 and 11. If the church is gone, how is it that they are to suffer tribulation even for ten days. God doesn't lie for He is truth and His word is truth. The church is still here during the tribulation.

Hismessenger

I have heard many speculate on who the seven churches are, some say the church through time and some say the different characteristics of the church today. But it is obvious some go through the tribulation and some don't.

These are "seven churches", not "the Church" the body of Christ, the "bride".

The church in Smyrna suffers persecution, but it is unclear if they are raptured.

The church in Pergamum does go through the tribulation. Read Revelation 2:15-16, "Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." A clear message of what will hapen at the second comming Rev. 19:15, if they don't repent.

While the church in Philadelphia is definately raptured, Revelation 3:10, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world..."

These letters are written warnings to seven groups, but by their writing they are definately pre-rapture.

Read what Jesus says to all seven churches, it makes you think, it's an eye opener on what the Lord is looking for in His church.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

For over 25 years I've believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church -- but no longer. Here are a few rambling thoughts:

1. For me, it's simple. Yahuahshua will gather meet his bride in the air at the last trumpet after the great tribulation. The last trumpet occurs at the time of physical return of Yahuahshua at the end of the 3.5 year tribulation.

2. The great tribulation will be used by Yahuah the Father to purify and purge his church before Yahuahshua the Son returns. He will work supernaturally through a special remnant of believers during this time -- a 3.5 year mission. Many believers will be killed -- yes, even in America -- in defense of the faith. Many more lukewarm Christians will fall away from the faith, especially when they discover no rapture will save them.

3. The thought that God will need to evacuate his remnant before the tribulation suggests that he can't effectively work through his church in the presence of antichrist -- an assertion I simply reject. The notion of God cutting and running is impossible to accept.

4. The third world church is already being persecuted and killed for the faith. Pre-trib doctrine implies that only the lukewarm church of Europe and America will get a free pass from trial and tribulation. Again, purely false teaching. Yahuahshua prayed to the Father, "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."

5. The pre-trib doctrine is relatively new, dating from the 1800s.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=30179512&postcount=74.

Why are you double posting your doctrine?
Your reasoning is not God's revelation.
You are also judging God's children whom you want to remain for the wrath of God to be poured out on them with the inhabitants of the world, to make them as miserable as you imagine God's children are in third world countries. That is setting yourself up as God over His own and you are not allowed to do that.

As tribulation is the cup each and every born again Believer endures no matter where they live or in what time period, you cannot specify what you think is best for God's own, for their purifying as sons.

You have no idea of the personal trials which God's children in this country or any other go through. God uses relationships between individuals in marraiges, jobs, and communities to train His own; He also uses trials tailored to the individual sons to bring them to their state of being 'pure gold'; and that may be in war, peace, wealth, poverty, sickness, or health; it may be in good times or in bad.

He is God, not you. He is the Father of His own, and He knows what each and every son He receives for training needs to bring them to perfection; so stop trying to play God; you can't make it happen your way.

I've had my share of tribulation and have learned much by the trials I have gone through, and have learned that God scourges every son He recieves.
You have not walked in my shoes and I have no desire to walk in anyone elses; and I am not remaining to dwell on earth for the great tribulation, which is when God pours out His wrath on the inhabitants of the world.
Remain if you so choose, but I have a better promise and a heavenly hope.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Why are you double posting your doctrine?
Your reasoning is not God's revelation.
You are also judging God's children whom you want to remain for the wrath of God to be poured out on them with the inhabitants of the world, to make them as miserable as you imagine God's children are in third world countries. That is setting yourself up as God over His own and you are not allowed to do that.

As tribulation is the cup each and every born again Believer endures no matter where they live or in what time period, you cannot specify what you think is best for God's own, for their purifying as sons.

You have no idea of the personal trials which God's children in this country or any other go through. God uses relationships between individuals in marraiges, jobs, and communities to train His own; He also uses trials tailored to the individual sons to bring them to their state of being 'pure gold'; and that may be in war, peace, wealth, poverty, sickness, or health; it may be in good times or in bad.

He is God, not you. He is the Father of His own, and He knows what each and every son He receives for training needs to bring them to perfection; so stop trying to play God; you can't make it happen your way.

I've had my share of tribulation and have learned much by the trials I have gone through, and have learned that God scourges every son He recieves.
You have not walked in my shoes and I have no desire to walk in anyone elses; and I am not remaining to dwell on earth for the great tribulation, which is when God pours out His wrath on the inhabitants of the world.
Remain if you so choose, but I have a better promise and a heavenly hope.

He is God, not you.

My goodness, why so bitter? If I came across as "playing God," I am truly sorry. As Sha'ul tells us, we all see through the glass darkly.

I think if you prayerfully search the scriptures, you will ultimately arrive at the conclusion that there is no pre-trib rapture. That was my reluctant conclusion a few short years ago.

If there is a pre-trib rapture, then all will be well, and we'll still be counted worthy to escape. However, if a rapture doesn't occur and we find ourselves facing life and death decisions, how difficult it will be to maintain our faith in the face of such bitter disappointment.

Peace to you.

 

[timlamb]

My goodness, why so bitter? If I came across as "playing God," I am truly sorry. As Sha'ul tells us, we all see through the glass darkly.

I think if you prayerfully search the scriptures, you will ultimately arrive at the conclusion that there is no pre-trib rapture. That was my reluctant conclusion a few short years ago.

If there is a pre-trib rapture, then all will be well, and we'll still be counted worthy to escape. However, if a rapture doesn't occur and we find ourselves facing life and death decisions, how difficult it will be to maintain our faith in the face of such bitter disappointment.

Peace to you.

I don't believe "Luke Warm" Christians are staying ready, they are going to sleep and will miss the groom and the wedding. We who are perserveering will be saved from the wrath. We who are raptured already have the faith to stand the tribulation. The rapture is not a way out for the weak.

During the tibulation many Jews will come to the messiah Jesus Christ because of the truth of the rapture. and no one will be on the fence about their faith, they will be forced to choose and pay a high price for choosing Christ in those days.

The marraige supper of the lamb seems to be a much anticipated event in Heaven so that doesn't work with the post trib. rapture/comming.

It is not easy to maintain faith in this culture either. My life is not threatened every minute but my faith is tried in an almost constant barrage of lusts and temptations third world countries have never experenced. My faith is challenged every day.

How can you say the rapture is God taking the easy way out with the church. Does everyone have to have their life threatened once to satisfy you? I know many who lived, loved, worshiped, and served, and died without large scale tribulation and I fully expect to see them when we meet in the Kingdom of Heaven.

If there is no pre trib rapture then Jesus could not come today, there is too much prophecy left un filled, and that does not fit with Scripture and the Imminent return.

 

[icedtea]

If the rapture is at the End of Time, all will know exactly when He returns. yet the bible says He will come at a time we do not think. This doesn't jibe.
I am looking up!

 

[timlamb]

If the rapture is at the End of Time, all will know exactly when He returns. yet the bible says He will come at a time we do not think. This doesn't jibe.
I am looking up!

with anticipation and reverence

 

[jeffweeder]

what is the tribulation ?
What does scripture say the tribulation is, and why we cant be here.?

The promise the church has looked forward to is the one that Jesus promised- and that was to come again....and behold i have told you all before it happens he said.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to come back,but is patient ,that all come to repentence.-The gospel must be preached to all nations /tongues, and then the end will come-The last day we are changed/ risen, and are not raptured a moment before. This is the clear teaching of Paul in 1thess 4 :17/

 

[Mighty Mouse]

If there is no pre trib rapture then Jesus could not come today, there is too much prophecy left un filled, and that does not fit with Scripture and the Imminent return.

This is the one area that I have struggled with, but I still conclude that the doctrine of imminency is in error.

The Church will know the general time of Lord’s return and will not be surprised. However, the world, (referred to in relevant scriptures as people, they and them) will be surprised and they will not escape.

The Church will know. After all, why would Yahuahshua tell us over and over again to keep watch, if there was nothing to watch for? In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, Yahuahshua describes many visible signs which will precede the Second Coming.

Also, “Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). Again, there will be no surprise for the Church.

Pretribulationists say to keep watch. Yet they also say nothing must happen before Mashiach's return. So, if nothing must happen before the return of Mashiach, what are they watching for? This type of reasoning is contradictory and reveals erroneous thinking. As I mentioned, it was with great reluctance that I concluded the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the doctrine of imminency are false. After all, who wants to go through the fires of testing? (I do believe that Mashiach will protect his true flock.)

The Day of the Lord will not surprise the Church. The Church will be watching the signs Yahuahshua gave to indicate that His return is near. Just as Yahuahshua said, “See, I have told you ahead of time” (Matthew 24:25).

 

[timlamb]

what is the tribulation ?
What does scripture say the tribulation is, and why we cant be here.?

The promise the church has looked forward to is the one that Jesus promised- and that was to come again....and behold i have told you all before it happens he said.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to come back,but is patient ,that all come to repentence.-The gospel must be preached to all nations /tongues, and then the end will come-The last day we are changed/ risen, and are not raptured a moment before. This is the clear teaching of Paul in 1thess 4 :17/

The church has a promise to miss the wrath. The marriage of the Lamb takes place before the second comming. The rapture is a gentile thing and then attention is turned back to the Jewish nation that they may see and believe. The rapture is not the return promissed, it is the removale of the church from the wrath, not the return of Christ.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

This is the one area that I have struggled with, but I still conclude that the doctrine of imminency is in error.

The Church will know the general time of Lord’s return and will not be surprised. However, the world, (referred to in relevant scriptures as people, they and them) will be surprised and they will not escape.

The Church will know. After all, why would Yahuahshua tell us over and over again to keep watch, if there was nothing to watch for? In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, Yahuahshua describes many visible signs which will precede the Second Coming.

Also, “Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). Again, there will be no surprise for the Church.

Pretribulationists say to keep watch. Yet they also say nothing must happen before Mashiach's return. So, if nothing must happen before the return of Mashiach, what are they watching for? This type of reasoning is contradictory and reveals erroneous thinking. As I mentioned, it was with great reluctance that I concluded the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the doctrine of imminency are false. After all, who wants to go through the fires of testing? (I do believe that Mashiach will protect his true flock.)

The Day of the Lord will not surprise the Church. The Church will be watching the signs Yahuahshua gave to indicate that His return is near. Just as Yahuahshua said, “See, I have told you ahead of time” (Matthew 24:25).

What we are watching;

We are watching and praying. as Jesus commanded, living godly sober lives, that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things that are coming on all the inhabitants of the world and to stand before the Son of Man as perfected sons of God =finished, made priests unto Him.

That is our "Watch". It is a personal soul watch so that we may not be rejects in that day. We are in Christ by the New Birth, but if we do not live godly sober lives by choice, we will not be caught up to meet Him in the air in perfected bodies of regeneration for the glory of priesthood as sons of God, and "hidden in His Secret" on that day, celebrating our consecration as priests in His image.

.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

what is the tribulation ?
What does scripture say the tribulation is, and why we cant be here.?

The promise the church has looked forward to is the one that Jesus promised- and that was to come again....and behold i have told you all before it happens he said.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to come back,but is patient ,that all come to repentence.-The gospel must be preached to all nations /tongues, and then the end will come-The last day we are changed/ risen, and are not raptured a moment before. This is the clear teaching of Paul in 1thess 4 :17/

The Last Day is a thousand years of our earth time, a Sabbath of Peace for this present creation, but we will be resurrected at the beginning of it in perfected bodies made in His image; then the night begins, of that last day which is short, but terrible; and in the last half of that night no man can work....God will so pour out His wrath that you won't want to be here, and no one can be warned and miss on purpose the call to be ready, for then they will be blinded after the Church is taken away to heaven "to be married".

If you are born again and living as if the next moment you may be called to meet him, then whether in death by suddenness or by the taking away of the Church for the wedding, you will not miss the rapture of the Church -even if you think -like Peter- that you would be able to stand, it will be impossible for those who were warned and did not live godly sober lives, always ready to meet their LORD, for they will be blinded by YHWH -but Israel's eyes will be opened. -The reverse of now is to come.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world. This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Any thoughts?

You've pretty badly butchered the verses in question. It is undeniable in these passages if you look at them as wholes, instead of picking out bits and pieces, that the rapture happens at the same time as God's wrath being poured out on the unrighteous.. the sudden destruction spoken of is God's wrath being poured out.

It doesn't say anywhere that these people are living in peace.. what it says is that things and life were going on as they always have, which if you bother to check is not generally peaceful.
The fact that people are saying "peace peace" doesn't mean that there is peace. People have been saying peace peace almost constantly since WWI. In regard to the middle east what are politicians saying right now the world over "PEACE! PEACE!"

Peace, peace, but there will be no peace. In the days of Noah, there was no peace, the earth was filled with violence.. just as it is now.. but people went on eating and drinking and marrying, just as they do now... and just as they do at the end.


I don't know how much more clear it can possibly get than "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION...." That seems to set the time table pretty clearly for me.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

the Great trib starts in Rev 5

rev 1-3 are before the trib

vs 4 is seconds after the Rapture

since this is true ... the church is in heaven during the great tribulation

thus making 1 cor 11:32 correct

 

[jeffweeder]

I don't know how much more clear it can possibly get than "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION...." That seems to set the time table pretty clearly for me.

Yes.
All through the discourse , Jesus is calling them to endurance, in face of opposition- Jesus said, they will hand you over to tribulation.-
-your own mother, brother sister will hand you over.

AND AGAIN, " when you come before kings for my name sake, dont worry.

If they persucuted me ,they will persecute my followers.

It happened almost immediately, they were killed for their faith and their testimony of Jesus ,and it will continue , magnifying itself 10 fold in the end. ( explain to me how they could preach pre -trib ,when what happened to them was the exact opposite.)

Then Jesus says, after all this tribulation then the sign of the son of man will appear-in the sky, and so Jesus returns as he promised.

Remember that the Gospel has to be preached to every language/people, before he comes.
If that cant be done in todays world with our knowledge of the planet, then it never will be.
Jesus is just about to make his glorious appearing.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

the church goes thru tribulation ...

the world get to recieve the Great Tribulation which God has stored up and let loose

 

[Hismessenger]

Why is it that when God says He will keep you from the hour of trial that is to come upon the world, so many believe that he means to take you away from. The truth is that Israel was there during the hour of trial and God kept them by the blood of the lamb. Your belief that He will rapture the church away does not make it so. He is God and can keep you even in the most trying times and even through the fire. Can I get an Amen on that?

Hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

7

 

[timlamb]

You've pretty badly butchered the verses in question. It is undeniable in these passages if you look at them as wholes, instead of picking out bits and pieces, that the rapture happens at the same time as God's wrath being poured out on the unrighteous.. the sudden destruction spoken of is God's wrath being poured out.

It doesn't say anywhere that these people are living in peace.. what it says is that things and life were going on as they always have, which if you bother to check is not generally peaceful.
The fact that people are saying "peace peace" doesn't mean that there is peace. People have been saying peace peace almost constantly since WWI. In regard to the middle east what are politicians saying right now the world over "PEACE! PEACE!"

Peace, peace, but there will be no peace. In the days of Noah, there was no peace, the earth was filled with violence.. just as it is now.. but people went on eating and drinking and marrying, just as they do now... and just as they do at the end.


I don't know how much more clear it can possibly get than "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION...." That seems to set the time table pretty clearly for me.

I don't know where you get that I butchered them, I just gave my interpretation. I have read the scriptures and other books on the subject and taken all the information and made my annalisis, now I ask for your thoughts. Please be respectful. A term like peace could be taken as nothing but relative, and I clearified "peace between the church and the world". Do you read about the tribulation and the second comming and still see Christian and nonChristian side by side in bed or at work? Those without the mark will not even be able to work from what I read, and laying in the same bed certainly is not an image that portrays that time.

If you have comments of a less personal nature I would like to hear them.

 

[timlamb]

Why is it that when God says He will keep you from the hour of trial that is to come upon the world, so many believe that he means to take you away from. The truth is that Israel was there during the hour of trial and God kept them by the blood of the lamb. Your belief that He will rapture the church away does not make it so. He is God and can keep you even in the most trying times and even through the fire. Can I get an Amen on that?

Hismessenger

Yes, Amen, He could bring us through the tribulation, but that would not serve Him or us, there is nothing to be gained by putting the church through that. It is by His mercy we are found worthy to escape that most horrific of times. Israel has gone through trials , many of their own making, which God allows to bring them back to Himself, this will be the climax of that.