Pre-Trib?

[Pastor Bob Oliver]

The question seems to be growing more and more lately, on wether or not the Church, that is, the Body of CHRIST, will be raptured out prior to the commencement of the 7 year tribulation period, or go through part, or even all, of it.

personally, I am a pre-tribulationist, pre-millenialist, and           pre-paredist  : ) 

I Thess 4:16,17--"For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven with a Shout, with the Voice of the archangel, and with the sound of a Trumpet: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD!"

The point in question is this: "When does this passage occur?" Let us enjoy this inquiry as we explore the Sacred Oracles!!!

God Bless You All!    

PBO

 

[ladylove]

At the end of the Tribulation, of course, right before the Day of the Lord. Not hard at all.

 

[postrib]

...I am a pre-tribulationist...

Note that no scripture promises us a pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

 

[Pastor Bob Oliver]

"we Christians must go through the tribulation"


What? The Christians that will be gathered up at the end of the Tribulation Period are actually tribulation converts, those who accept JESUS CHRIST as SAVIOR "during" the 7 year period; most of these courageous converts will be martyred before the Second Advent but some will Endure to the End; note: the Church Age comes to an end at the Rapture of the Church; The Times of the Gentiles is over, and GOD is dealing with Israel again, bringing them to their knees until Messiah is finally accepted "Nationally"; this will occur at the very end of the trib--Armageddon!
PBO

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The "first resurrection" occurs at the "last trump" at the end of the book of revelations.
This is the "first" resurrection, so no resurrections could have taken place before it else it would not be the "first".


Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[LastDazed]

Originally posted by hobart schmedly
The "first resurrection" occurs at the "last trump" at the end of the book of revelations.
This is the "first" resurrection, so no resurrections could have taken place before it else it would not be the "first".

Hobart,
The resurrection of Jesus Christ, the first human to be resurrected, is indeed the "First resurrection", for no resurrections could have taken place before it, nor did they.

Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among MANY brethren.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Originally posted by Pastor Bob Oliver
note: the Church Age comes to an end at the Rapture of the Church;

Pastor Bob,
Note that it is the Church that is the everlasting vehicle for humans to praise Jesus through. At no time will this fact cease to be. The Church itself, and therefore the "age of the Church", has no end.

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end . Amen.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by hobart schmedly
The "first resurrection" occurs at the "last trump" at the end of the book of revelations.
This is the "first" resurrection, so no resurrections could have taken place before it else it would not be the "first".


Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I've got to disagree with you here Hobbes.  This scripture does not say when the first resurrection will take place rather it clearly says that the second resurrection will take place at the end of the thousand year reign.  Look closely at verse five.  It says the rest of the dead, that means that some of the dead did live again, which would be a resurrection, the first resurrection.  The second sentence in verse five is accually in reference to the last part of verse four.  For verse four clearly says that those who were beheaded reigned with Christ for a thousand years, which is contrary to the those who pertake in the resurrection after the thousand years have ended.

The first resurrection is limited by nothing.  There is no specification to its time frame or the duration of the time frame that it occupies.

Jesus is a part of the first resurrection, and the rapture is a part of the first resurrection.  All who pertake of the life of Christ will pertake of the first resurrection, when they pertake isn't answered in scripture.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by LastDazed
Pastor Bob,
Note that it is the Church that is the everlasting vehicle for humans to praise Jesus through. At no time will this fact cease to be. The Church itself, and therefore the "age of the Church", has no end.

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end . Amen.

Correct! There is only one Church, on earth and in heaven. Whatever the final outcome of history as we know it, the Church will last forever. The New Covenant is an eternal covenant and the Church is the new Israel, God's chosen people under the New Covenant.

The hope of the Church is the resurrection, not the so-called "rapture" which is a contrived novelty. Note that, even in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the ground of the hope to which Paul refers is the death and resurrection of Jesus (v. 14). Our hope is that, as God raised Jesus from the dead, so he will also do the same for all who are "in Christ" and, indeed, for "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22). Eschatological salvation is three-dimensional: personal (through the individual believer coming to saving and sanctifying faith), corporate (through the Church embodying the reality of the kingdom of God even in the midst of the kingdom of this world), and cosmic (throughout all creation at the full consummation of the kingdom of God).

To suggest that the Church will not have to endure "the tribulation" is patently ridiculous and contrary to clear biblical and Apostolic teaching. How else is Bride of Christ (the Church) to be "adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2) if not through identifying with the bridegroom (Christ) in the very suffering and tribulation through which he purchased her? What are we to make of those who, throughout history, have literally paid for their faith in Christ with the blood of their martyrdom? Do those who expect to be "raptured" or "whisked away" think they are somehow more precious in the eyes of God than those who have gone before, that they should somehow be spared from suffering? Show me a "Christian" who has not endured tribulation and suffering and I will show you a "Christian" who is not fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Pastor Bob Oliver
"we Christians must go through the tribulation"


What? The Christians that will be gathered up at the end of the Tribulation Period are actually tribulation converts, those who accept JESUS CHRIST as SAVIOR "during" the 7 year period; most of these courageous converts will be martyred before the Second Advent but some will Endure to the End; note: the Church Age comes to an end at the Rapture of the Church; The Times of the Gentiles is over, and GOD is dealing with Israel again, bringing them to their knees until Messiah is finally accepted "Nationally"; this will occur at the very end of the trib--Armageddon!
PBO

Hello Bob,

Amen brother!! It's nice to hear from people who know what's going on!! I agree with most of what you said, except I wouldn't say that the rapture will be the end of the church age, but I would say that it will be the end of the age of grace. Those that are martyred in the tribulation will also be members of the church, but they won't enter solely by God's grace alone. No, these will also have to surrender their lives, as they also have to refuse the mark of the beast. It's the price for not being ready and prepared as God's word commands us to be. That's probably what you meant to say anyway, huh??

About Israel, sadly, it appears that many people, even some of Christ' believers are turning their backs on Israel. They are ready to judge them, and even trash them as being evil. It kind of reminds me of Hitler. He hated them because they crucified Christ. But Christ by His own admission came here to earth for that very purpose. He came to die, so that we could be free. Unbelieving Israel was also part of His plan, so that it would open up the salvation door for us gentiles. I praise God for the Jews and some of the things they have accomplished. Mainly, for taking the steps to preserve God's word, and that was no easy task. Christ has never to this very day, given the authority to judge others, to any of His followers. And when He does, they will be given thrones to sit on. It's kind of funny, these people actually hate the Jews, when all along Christ was a Jew Himself. And then they try to claim they love Him. Go figure? Don't they even realize that the Jews are no more sinful than anyone else?? Christ died just as much for the Jews as he did the gentiles or anyone for that matter. Don't they know that the Jews are receiving salvation too?? I know some Jewish believers, and they are no worse than we gentiles are. Israel the nation is not as evil as the U.S.A. I believe America is far more sinful. Are they aborting babies in Israel?? Did they take God out of their schools?? When Jesus was nailed to that cross, it was your sins and mine that put Him there. It wasn't just the Jews who were responsible. If you want to know who put Him on the cross, just look in the mirror. 

It's true, that judgment is coming for Israel, but the same is coming for the U.S. too. Some people really need to wake up. Salvation will come to Israel in the tribulation, right after God is finished with the gentiles. Sadly, two thirds of those who call themselves Jews will be judged. Only a remnant will remain. One third will finally repent and receive Christ, and they will be spared. So God will cast out 2/3 and destroy them, but He will save the other 1/3 and purify them as silver and gold, and thus all Israel will be saved.



  

  

  

  

  

  

 

 

[Pastor Bob Oliver]

Amen Rollin Thunder!

And yes I did mean the Age of Grace (the Church Age) comes to an end at the sound of the Trumpet; from then on, God is not dealing with man the same way He is right now; you outlined it pretty well about not taking the mark and holding out faithful even unto death; Praise God for a voice of reason!
PBO

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Correct! There is only one Church, on earth and in heaven. Whatever the final outcome of history as we know it, the Church will last forever. The New Covenant is an eternal covenant and the Church is the new Israel, God's chosen people under the New Covenant.

The hope of the Church is the resurrection, not the so-called "rapture" which is a contrived novelty. Note that, even in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the ground of the hope to which Paul refers is the death and resurrection of Jesus (v. 14). Our hope is that, as God raised Jesus from the dead, so he will also do the same for all who are "in Christ" and, indeed, for "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22). Eschatological salvation is three-dimensional: personal (through the individual believer coming to saving and sanctifying faith), corporate (through the Church embodying the reality of the kingdom of God even in the midst of the kingdom of this world), and cosmic (throughout all creation at the full consummation of the kingdom of God).

To suggest that the Church will not have to endure "the tribulation" is patently ridiculous and contrary to clear biblical and Apostolic teaching. How else is Bride of Christ (the Church) to be "adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2) if not through identifying with the bridegroom (Christ) in the very suffering and tribulation through which he purchased her? What are we to make of those who, throughout history, have literally paid for their faith in Christ with the blood of their martyrdom? Do those who expect to be "raptured" or "whisked away" think they are somehow more precious in the eyes of God than those who have gone before, that they should somehow be spared from suffering? Show me a "Christian" who has not endured tribulation and suffering and I will show you a "Christian" who is not fit for the kingdom of God.

You heve no concept of what Grace is.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by SnuP
You heve no concept of what Grace is.

Oh, you're funny! Grace is not a "concept." It is a reality that can only be experienced and embraced through suffering. Dietrich Bonhoeffer puts it best:

CHEAP GRACE is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace.

Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks' wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church's inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous  hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap?

Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian "conception" of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins. The Church which holds the correct doctrine of grace has, it is supposed, ipso facto a part in that grace. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.

Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

--Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, pp. 46-48.

If you think grace is nothing but a free ticket to heaven, then you're not one to lecture me on the subject.

 

[SnuP]

Grace is free because it cost us nothing. But is one person paying the price that another should pay. It requires nothing of us but everything of Him. I glad that you can quote a theologin, but that tells me that you got your understanding from a man rather then from God.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by SnuP
Grace is free because it cost us nothing. But is one person paying the price that another should pay. It requires nothing of us but everything of Him. I glad that you can quote a theologin, but that tells me that you got your understanding from a man rather then from God.

Ah, yes! The old "Jesus paid it all so you can have it all" argument. And when all else fails, fall back on the tried and true "words of man rather than Word of God" trick. All form, no substance. I've seen your type before: "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts!"

 

[postrib]

...tribulation converts...

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation, but says that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be da*mned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). So it's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation are us, saved before the tribulation began. Jesus doesn't promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

[*The posting program won't accept the Biblical word d-a-m-n-e-d.]

...The Times of the Gentiles...

Note that no scripture says that the times of the Gentiles ends before the tribulation. "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). Because Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles during the coming tribulation: "it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" (Revelation 11:2), the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

...the rapture is a part of the first resurrection...

Note that no verse promises us a resurrection before the 2nd coming.

I believe the Bible precludes that our resurrection be before the 2nd coming because it says the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

I believe the pre-trib doctrine would require that 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:4-5 on the other, be referring to two different bodies of Christians regarding two different comings of Christ, thus making the one body of Christ two bodies (Ephesians 4:4-5), the 2nd coming a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), the last trumpet the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and the 1st resurrection the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that the pre-trib doctrine would not be making sense of scripture.

...the Age of Grace...

Note that the Bible doesn't refer to an "age of grace," but instead says "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace" (Ephesians 2:7). I believe the covenant of grace (Hebrews 10:29) is the "everlasting covenant" (Hebrews 13:20), and the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24) is the "everlasting gospel" (Revelation 14:6). We Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) will be in his grace.

"Grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9).

And grace will continue even after the tribulation, for at the 2nd coming Jesus "will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10).

...the Church Age...

Note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church is "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Ah, yes! The old "Jesus paid it all so you can have it all" argument. And when all else fails, fall back on the tried and true "words of man rather than Word of God" trick. All form, no substance. I've seen your type before: "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts!"

You have no idea where I come from.  I relie on the words of no man, for the Spirit reveals everything.  I don't get my doctrine from men but from God.  And I test the spirit to see that it is true, and I test to word to see that it has the power.  When the word draws you to God and their is power reveal, power that overcomes, then it is a word of God.

What you have posted puts man back under bondage.  There is no bondage in Christ.  The only suffering that we ever experience is the suffering that comes because of the annointing.  But it is our choice to carry the annointing.  But that suffering is nothing for Jesus said that my yoke is easy and my burdon is light.  The annionting also gives us strength to overcome.  All suffering is give for us to overcome.  In overcomeing we glorify God.

 

[ladylove]

Then tell me this you pre-tribbers (wishful thinkers!) HOW do you reconcile Jesus' teaching of the wheat and the tares in Mat. 13:24-30 with a pre-trib "rose colored" lens?

Matt 13:30 "Allow both to grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers , "First gather up the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."

Now what is the havest? How as a pre-tribber do you tell who the wheat and who the tares are with out a harvest? Have any of you seen what a harvest looks like? My parents live on farm with crops, and the harvesting is a radical change from soil to thrashing by machinery. In days of old, it was done by screens to "seperate" out true wheat from disposable parts (tares). If there is no divine screen (i.e. tribulation of the church) then tares have a rightful claim to be considered true wheat.

A pre-wrath position is the only position that fits consistently through out Scripture. I used to want to believe that I would not go thru testing if this generation goes into the 70th week, but Scripturally it doesn't fit together. I have made a radical shift in my understanding to be able to be consistent and true to the Word of God. I hope that you too, will not be caught blind sided and see that the pre-wrath position is truly the only position that makes all Jesus's teaching of the end, the prophets warnings, and John's visions of the 70th week the only logical conclusion that is Scripturally consistent.

I realize that this is hotly debated, and we are all in different stages of growth and I accept that. But with a truly open mind, it is the most consistent way to understand Scripture.

A former pre tribber turned to pre-wrath...Hallejuah!!!

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I realize that this is hotly debated, and we are all in different stages of growth and I accept that. But with a truly open mind, it is the most consistent way to understand Scripture.

A former pre tribber turned to pre-wrath...Hallejuah!!! [/B]

Suit yourself, but I would be very careful what you ask for. Maybe the Lord will think you are requesting to go through the tribulation, and He is the one that can grant your wish. This is not the most consistant way to understand, it is merely your understanding and that doesn't carry any weight as far as God doing as He pleases to fulfill His plan. How do you understand this:

Luke 21:36 - "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape [all] that is about to happend that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

 

[ladylove]

Like I say, I can't convince you only an open heart and mind to see how Scripture is consistent throughout under a prewrath understanding. I was truly astonished. It is the most revoultionary change in my understanding as a Christian for 30 years. Who knows, maybe the Lord will blow my mind again in another 30 years. I just wanted to warn you that if prewrath is consistent throughout Scripture (and it is, it was the offficial position of the early church fathers until well, you can figure it out) then it is important that the true bible-believing churches prepare when the covenant of death is signed by Israel. Israel is the "star actress" in Revelation, not the church. I wish to God that what you think was true. But it just doesn't hold up to teaching of Scripture to me. I am a true convert. Prewrath is the only viable position that flows consistent in Scripture.

But you are entitled to your opinion to think differently. So be it.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by ladylove
Like I say, I can't convince you only an open heart and mind to see how Scripture is consistent throughout under a prewrath understanding. I was truly astonished. It is the most revoultionary change in my understanding as a Christian for 30 years. Who knows, maybe the Lord will blow my mind again in another 30 years. I just wanted to warn you that if prewrath is consistent throughout Scripture (and it is, it was the offficial position of the early church fathers until well, you can figure it out) then it is important that the true bible-believing churches prepare when the covenant of death is signed by Israel. Israel is the "star actress" in Revelation, not the church. I wish to God that what you think was true. But it just doesn't hold up to teaching of Scripture to me. I am a true convert. Prewrath is the only viable position that flows consistent in Scripture.

But you are entitled to your opinion to think differently. So be it.

ladylove,

Prewrath, is that the same as a mid-tribber? Where in relation to the seven year tribulation do you believe the rapture will occur?