Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[HisdaughterJen]

My thinking is that since we are grafted into the original Olive tree, and Israel is referred to in the female sense, so is the church.

Eph 2:15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,


1Cr 12:12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
...

1Cr 12:27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.


Eph 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

She's the first Christian that I have ever known who believes that we are in the tribulation. I found that odd

I can prove it with scriptures. It is the first four seals/God's "four dreadful judgments"....The wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, and include persecution, and martyrdom that have been going on since Christ ascended and sent the riders out on Jerusalem and then to the world (Ezek 14:21/Rv 6). They continually ride in increasing frequency and intensity until the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

 

[Breckmin]

Obviously the Body of Christ is referred to as a "he" in a general pronoun.

First, that general pronoun "he" isn't in the original language identifying
what restrains in the masculine and that is why scholars think it is the
Holy Spirit. Two, you are missing the obvious symbolism here regarding
the "Body of Christ." Are we "physically" all male? Are there women
who are apart of the church? This should be axiomatic. The symbolism
of using the Body of Christ is in reference to a "working and moving
group of unified "parts" like parts of "a" body. It is symbolism. No one
I know would claim that the Body of Christ is a "he." It is like saying
God the Father has to be male with some sort of reproduction.

There is a difference between being revealed in a spiritually masculine
state as the standard vs. being male and female for reproductive
purposes.

Would you rather the Body of Christ be referred to as a "she"?

This is incongruous to symbolism. Find me anywhere in the original
Greek language where the Body of Christ is called a "he" or where the
church is called a "he." This is not how scripture refers to the church.

It makes no sense because Christ is a HE.

Yes, Jesus is a "He" and He was in a male body here on earth. That is
why the bride or the church is revealed in the feminine because there
is a spiritual symbolism regarding "marriage." That doesn't mean that
the bride is specifically "female" like reproduction. Yes, the bride can
be referred to as a "she" BUT we all know this is symbolism and not
male and female reproductive sexes.


Michael

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Eph 2:15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Rev 19:7-8 ~ ~Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints....which one are you going to believe?

I can prove it with scriptures. It is the first four seals/God's "four dreadful judgments"....The wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, and include persecution, and martyrdom that have been going on since Christ ascended and sent the riders out on Jerusalem and then to the world (Ezek 14:21/Rv 6). They continually ride in increasing frequency and intensity until the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

Well personally, I am not in the tribulation, but believe at the end of what Jesus called the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

First, that general pronoun "he" isn't in the original language identifying
what restrains in the masculine and that is why scholars think it is the
Holy Spirit. Two, you are missing the obvious symbolism here regarding
the "Body of Christ." Are we "physically" all male? Are there women
who are apart of the church? This should be axiomatic. The symbolism
of using the Body of Christ is in reference to a "working and moving
group of unified "parts" like parts of "a" body. It is symbolism. No one
I know would claim that the Body of Christ is a "he." It is like saying
God the Father has to be male with some sort of reproduction.

There is a difference between being revealed in a spiritually masculine
state as the standard vs. being male and female for reproductive
purposes.


This is incongruous to symbolism. Find me anywhere in the original
Greek language where the Body of Christ is called a "he" or where the
church is called a "he." This is not how scripture refers to the church.



Yes, Jesus is a "He" and He was in a male body here on earth. That is
why the bride or the church is revealed in the feminine because there
is a spiritual symbolism regarding "marriage." That doesn't mean that
the bride is specifically "female" like reproduction. Yes, the bride can
be referred to as a "she" BUT we all know this is symbolism and not
male and female reproductive sexes.


Michael

I can't believe this is even a point of contention. Simply referring to the church as the BODY OF CHRIST, even symbolically, makes the pronoun a HE symbolically just as referring to the church as the Bride symbolically would make it a SHE.

Are we not one with Christ? We are IN Him and He is IN us, right?

Paul is referring to the church as both a "what" and a "who" in that passage which is what we are.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Rev 19:7 ~Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints....which one are you going to believe?

Both, Nana...that's the point. The church is referred to as both masculine (body of Christ) and feminine (Bride of Christ) in the Scriptures.

A question for you, Nana, is will you believe the 5th seal is when the Bride is given her white robes (fine linen, clean and white) which is after the tribulation but before the Day of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls?

Well personally, I am not in the tribulation, but believe at the end of what Jesus called the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24.

The "beginning of sorrows" happened when the armies surrounded Jerusalem in 66-70AD and continue to this day.

Luk 21:20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Another point: Is the church currently the restrainer of the devil?

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Lord Knows We Could Use One!


First, The Negatives:

Be not quickly shaken...nor disturbed...nor deceived.

‘...you be not quickly shaken [saleu,w] from your composure or be disturbed [evxapata,w] either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive [evxapata,w] you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:2-3).

Friberg Lexicon:

saleu,w

(1) literally, as the unexpected and disastrous shaking of what would be thought to be stable, e.g. earth or sky shake, cause to move to and fro, cause to waver or totter, make to rock (AC 16.26); (2) figuratively; (a) of stirring up a crowd incite, move, agitate (AC 17.13); (b) mentally, of an individual agitate; passive be distressed, be upset, be shaken (2TH 2.2)

evxapata,w;

deceive completely, entice, delude

The Positive Counterpart:

Stand firm...hold to the traditions:

‘So then, brethren, stand firm [sth,kw] and hold [krate,w] to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us’ (2Th 2:15).

Friberg Lexicon:

sth,kw

(1) literally stand (MK 11.25); (2) figuratively; (a) as demonstrating stability stand firm, be steadfast (1C 16.13); (b) as gaining approval when examined stand (RO 14.4), opposite pi,ptw (fall)

krate,w

(1) take hold of (forcibly), seize, grasp (MT 9.25); (2) take into custody, seize, arrest (MT 14.3); (3) take control of, hold (fast) (AC 2.24); (4) hold back, restrain from, hinder, prevent (LU 24.16); (5) of following a doctrine, creedal confession, or course of life hold fast to, keep hold of, continue firmly in (HE 4.14); of causing a state to continue retain, keep (JN 20.23)

Recap:

Do not be quickly shaken–meaning don’t become unglued so that your faith fails you and you are deceived. On the other hand, stand firm, and hold to the traditions you were taught.

The text:

‘Let no one in any way deceive you, for [kata,] it will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:3).

Friberg Lexicon:

kata, with the accusative: to indicate goal or purpose for the purpose of, to, for (JN 2.6);

Example:

‘there were six stone waterpots set there for [the reason of] the Jewish custom of purification’ (Jo 2:6).

Same grammatical feature:

‘Let no one in any way deceive you, for [the reason that] it will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:3).

Meaning:

Do not be shaken or thrown into a quandry–for the reason that it may not come unless the apostasy.

What is the ‘it’ which ‘may not come?’ It is ‘the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to him’ (2Th 2:2). And what hinders that? It is our not being shaken or deceived (2Th 2:2); positively, it is our firm stand, our steadfastness in the received traditions.

‘...do not be quickly shaken [saleu,w] from your composure or be disturbed [evxapata,w] ...that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive [evxapata,w] you, for it [the day of the Lord] will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:2-3).

In context, apostasy refers to being shaken and deceived.

‘Let no one in any way deceive you’ (2Th 2:3).

‘with all the deception of wickedness’ (2Th 2:10).

‘For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness’ (2 Th 2:11-12).

‘be not quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us’ (2Th 2:2).

‘So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word’ (2Th 2:15-17).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Lord Knows We Could Use One!


First, The Negatives:

Be not quickly shaken...nor disturbed...nor deceived.

‘...you be not quickly shaken [saleu,w] from your composure or be disturbed [evxapata,w] either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive [evxapata,w] you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:2-3).

Friberg Lexicon:

saleu,w

(1) literally, as the unexpected and disastrous shaking of what would be thought to be stable, e.g. earth or sky shake, cause to move to and fro, cause to waver or totter, make to rock (AC 16.26); (2) figuratively; (a) of stirring up a crowd incite, move, agitate (AC 17.13); (b) mentally, of an individual agitate; passive be distressed, be upset, be shaken (2TH 2.2)

evxapata,w;

deceive completely, entice, delude

The Positive Counterpart:

Stand firm...hold to the traditions:

‘So then, brethren, stand firm [sth,kw] and hold [krate,w] to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us’ (2Th 2:15).

Friberg Lexicon:

sth,kw

(1) literally stand (MK 11.25); (2) figuratively; (a) as demonstrating stability stand firm, be steadfast (1C 16.13); (b) as gaining approval when examined stand (RO 14.4), opposite pi,ptw (fall)

krate,w

(1) take hold of (forcibly), seize, grasp (MT 9.25); (2) take into custody, seize, arrest (MT 14.3); (3) take control of, hold (fast) (AC 2.24); (4) hold back, restrain from, hinder, prevent (LU 24.16); (5) of following a doctrine, creedal confession, or course of life hold fast to, keep hold of, continue firmly in (HE 4.14); of causing a state to continue retain, keep (JN 20.23)

Recap:

Do not be quickly shaken–meaning don’t become unglued so that your faith fails you and you are deceived. On the other hand, stand firm, and hold to the traditions you were taught.

The text:

‘Let no one in any way deceive you, for [kata,] it will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:3).

Friberg Lexicon:

kata, with the accusative: to indicate goal or purpose for the purpose of, to, for (JN 2.6);

Example:

‘there were six stone waterpots set there for [the reason of] the Jewish custom of purification’ (Jo 2:6).

Same grammatical feature:

‘Let no one in any way deceive you, for [the reason that] it will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:3).

Meaning:

Do not be shaken or thrown into a quandry–for the reason that it may not come unless the apostasy.

What is the ‘it’ which ‘may not come?’ It is ‘the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to him’ (2Th 2:2). And what hinders that? It is our not being shaken or deceived (2Th 2:2); positively, it is our firm stand, our steadfastness in the received traditions.

‘...do not be quickly shaken [saleu,w] from your composure or be disturbed [evxapata,w] ...that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive [evxapata,w] you, for it [the day of the Lord] will not come unless the apostasy comes’ (2Th 2:2-3).

In context, apostasy refers to being shaken and deceived.

‘Let no one in any way deceive you’ (2Th 2:3).

‘with all the deception of wickedness’ (2Th 2:10).

‘For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness’ (2 Th 2:11-12).

‘be not quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us’ (2Th 2:2).

‘So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word’ (2Th 2:15-17).

IT, dear Covenant Heart, is the Day of the Lord!

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,


confirmed by Rev 6:

Seal #5 = rapture (giving of bridal clothes to the Bride)
Seal #6 = Day of the Lord/Wrath
Seal #7 = Outpouring of wrath which includes the trumpets, the BEASTS, and the bowls!
FOLLOWED by the coming of Christ on the clouds!

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Both, Nana...that's the point. The church is referred to as both masculine (body of Christ) and feminine (Bride of Christ) in the Scriptures.

That verse in Eph 2:15 is not talking about the church. It is talking about Christ dying to make a better covenant for us and Israel. He became one new man so that they didn't have to follow the old rules and regulations anymore because it didn't work. He died for us so that instead of following all of those customs, we are now saved by grace. We are grafted into them and are one. They just don't know Him yet.

A question for you, Nana, is will you believe the 5th seal is when the Bride is given her white robes (fine linen, clean and white) which is after the tribulation but before the Day of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls?

No. Those receiving white robes at the fifth seal are previous Martyers. That is why it says when they ask how long oh Lord, that it says, and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. We receive our white robes at the marriage supper..Rev 19:7-8 ~ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
1st Cor 15 doesn't say anthing about receiving our robes at the Second Coming. It just talks about the body putting on incorruption and immortality putting on mortality.
The fifth seal is during the tribulation where the seals 1-7 are opened. Right after the 7th angel sounds we are gone, (Rev 11:15) which is right before the wrath in Rev 11:18. It says that the third woe cometh quickly, so that is talking about the wrath.

The "beginning of sorrows" happened when the armies surrounded Jerusalem in 66-70AD and continue to this day.

Luk 21:20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Nope, wrong one. The armies are going to surround Jerusalem in these last days.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Blab, Blab, Blab!

Didn't I just post that when confronted with study, you blow it off with some puerile remark?

You still haven't told me why I'm supposed to respect this.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Blab, Blab, Blab!

Didn't I just post that when confronted with study, you blow it off with some puerile remark?

You still haven't told me why I'm supposed to respect this.

Who are you talking to Covenant Heart? Is this a bad day for you ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Blab, Blab, Blab!

Didn't I just post that when confronted with study, you blow it off with some puerile remark?

You still haven't told me why I'm supposed to respect this.

WHAT? "Why I'm supposed to respect this"???? What are you talking about?

Read it for yourself:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That verse in Eph 2:15 is not talking about the church. It is talking about Christ dying to make a better covenant for us and Israel. He became one new man so that they didn't have to follow the old rules and regulations anymore because it didn't work. He died for us so that instead of following all of those customs, we are now are saved by grace. We are grafted into them and are one. They just don't know Him yet.

No. Those receiving white robes at the fifth seal are previous Martyers. That is why it says when they ask how long oh Lord, that it says, and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. We receive our white robes at the marriage supper..Rev 19:7-8 ~ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
1st Cor 15 doesn't say anthing about receiving our robes at the Second Coming. It just talks about the body putting on incorruption and immortality putting on mortality.
The fifth seal is during the tribulation where the seals 1-7 are opened. Right after the 7th angel sounds we are gone, (Rev 11:15) which is right before the wrath in Rev 11:18. It says that the third woe cometh quickly, so that is talking about the wrath.
Nope, wrong one. The armies are going to surround Jerusalem in these last days.

Dear Nana....what, oh what, could the giving of white robes symbolically be referring to???

1Cr 15:53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1Cr 15:56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1Cr 15:57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Zec 3:4The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."


They are given to the BRIDE at seal #5. There are two sets of martyrs in that seal. The current one's who get robes before wrath and the one's who die at the hands of the beast.

 

[Breckmin]

I can't believe this is even a point of contention. Simply referring to the church as the BODY OF CHRIST, even symbolically, makes the pronoun a HE symbolically.

What makes this a red herring is you do not even believe it is a "he"
unless you are dealing with an English "translation." You believe it is an
"it" (the church) anyway. You are wasting all of this time arguing about
English pronouns that are not in the original language.

Your whole argument is English based... I suppose it would have to
be, given your position.

At some point you have to stop with these inductions at look at the
deductions that are 100% (Christians can suffer, Christians should all
be in glorified bodies at the same time, Christians are dying during the
seven years and are dead "in Christ", etc. this sort of thing).

Michael

 

[Covenant Heart]

I gave you a study with a perspective on the 2Th 2:3 text (in context). Did you interact with it? No. You posted this:

IT, dear Covenant Heart, is the Day of the Lord!

Then you followed up with an unexplained allusion to the Revelation which was (somehow) supposed to verify the comment.

This is simply absurd!

I'll grant that I've been away for a long time (year and a half, to be exact).

But I may as well not have returned because this board has devolved into meaninglessness.

Lexicons, rules of grammar, word studies, passage studies--everything gets dismissed with such comments as 'it's the day of the Lord!'

This isn't interaction at all.

Everybody here is grinding their own axe. Who here is interested in meaningful inquiry? Everything here has become a vast farce.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Dear Nana....what, oh what, could the giving of white robes symbolically be referring to???

1Cr 15:53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1Cr 15:56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1Cr 15:57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Zec 3:4The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."


They are given to the BRIDE at seal #5. There are two sets of martyrs in that seal. The current one's who get robes before wrath and the one's who die at the hands of the beast.

There you go again throwing verses out there that could mean anything but what we are talking about. Does it ever end?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What makes this a red herring is you do not even believe it is a "he"
unless you are dealing with an English "translation." You believe it is an
"it" (the church) anyway. You are wasting all of this time arguing about
English pronouns that are not in the original language.

Your whole argument is English based... I suppose it would have to
be, given your position.

At some point you have to stop with these inductions at look at the
deductions that are 100% (Christians can suffer, Christians should all
be in glorified bodies at the same time, Christians are dying during the
seven years and are dead "in Christ", etc. this sort of thing).

Michael

He, she, it...whatever...that's beside the point!

Paul said THREE times that there is a departure in that passage.

1. 2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him (departure = catching away to meet Lord in the air. aka rapture), we ask you

2.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure (APOSTASIA/DISCESSIO) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

3.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (departure)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I gave you a study with a perspective on the 2Th 2:3 text (in context). Did you interact with it? No. You posted this:



Then you followed up with an unexplained allusion to the Revelation which was (somehow) supposed to verify the comment.

This is simply absurd!

I'll grant that I've been away for a long time (year and a half, to be exact).

But I may as well not have returned because this board has devolved into meaninglessness.

Lexicons, rules of grammar, word studies, passage studies--everything gets dismissed with such comments as 'it's the day of the Lord!'

This isn't interaction at all.

Everybody here is grinding their own axe. Who here is interested in meaningful inquiry? Everything here has become a vast farce.

Read it. It doesn't mean anything other than what it says no matter how many word studies you do.
The people were worried because someone said the Day of the Lord had come and so Paul said, "IT" will not be unless...


2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

[HisdaughterJen]

IS the church currently restraining the devil?

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Eph 6:11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

Eph 6:16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Act 1:8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."


Eph 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[Breckmin]

This is simply absurd!

I'll grant that I've been away for a long time (year and a half, to be exact).

But I may as well not have returned because this board has devolved into meaninglessness.

Lexicons, rules of grammar, word studies, passage studies--everything gets dismissed with such comments as 'it's the day of the Lord!'

This isn't interaction at all.

Everybody here is grinding their own axe. Who here is interested in meaningful inquiry? Everything here has become a vast farce.

Give her time. I believe the Lord is working on her. Plus, you never know
who else is reading this thread who may read these posts and be convicted
in their hearts, and teach their children and grandchildren the truth so
that they can prepare other believers for martyrdom. God is faithful.
We will all see Jesus Return.

2nd Coming, not 3rd Coming. Counting to 3 is easier than counting to 7.

In Christ,
Michael